Planes may leave late in new system - Perth
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What a complete and utter load of crap !! Another tiny band aid being applied to the massive, infected, pus riddled sore AKA Perth airport.
The runway that affects most residents, noise wise, would have to be RW21, coincidentally the runway that seems to be used the most. How many t/props use D intersection ? A handful of Skywest F50s.
If anyone needed any more convincing what a bunch of morons WAC and AA are then surely this is the crowning turd in the water pipe .
The runway that affects most residents, noise wise, would have to be RW21, coincidentally the runway that seems to be used the most. How many t/props use D intersection ? A handful of Skywest F50s.
If anyone needed any more convincing what a bunch of morons WAC and AA are then surely this is the crowning turd in the water pipe .
Yet another cluster this morning. We called taxi on time and had nine aircraft in front of us. So where was the bottle neck? Not being launched quick enough. Why? Only one runway, being 21, in use. Wind was NE with 4-5 knots downwind! Why not use 03/06 combination which would A be the best runway for aircraft to actually use (you know, the resaon the airport is there) and B it would have given ATC more capacity to launch.
Third world by design.
Third world by design.
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Icarus2000 and HKF, Perth RWY priority due noise abatement is 21 and/or 24, then 03 then 06, arrivals and departures. On a dry RWY with 5 knots or less downwind, those are the runways that MUST be used. ATC has no say in the matter. The rules have to be obeyed, they don't have to make sense.
Taxied yesterday at 3.15 to join about 15 other aircraft holding for 21. A light aircraft was holding overhead the tower and nothing moved for quite some time. can anyone tell me what was going on?
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The "new" metron system is a system designed by people who think we have busy airports here in Australia whereas in actual fact the airports are quite quiet. Is Sydney flow control in contact with Perth flow? Is Brisbane talking to Sydney? They talk about controlled push back times but the real issue here is the airborne time not push back. To slot you in to an arrival space at an airport air traffic control need to control your airborne time. Off chocks time has nothing to do with it! What if you get caught behind an aircraft that then delays your airborne time? Why not follow countries that ARE actually busy and implement their system and learn from their experience? Another example where Australia thinks it is a world leader but in fact lags behind considerably. Very frustrating indeed!! 
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Nautilus, I don't doubt your word but that just reinforces how ridiculous and nonsensical Perth airport is. A quick look at google maps will show that there is far more housing under 21/24 flight paths than 03/06 so which politician lives under the 03/06 flight path ???
Also, why the hell do they bother printing departure procedures for 24 when they are never used ? Why have 6 A/C lined up on whiskey when 2-3 of those could be filed across to 24 instead of doing FA while waiting for wake seperation or worse, trg A/c doing an ILS, dont start me on that one .
Dodge, spot on, they ( the powers that be ? ) are convinced it is a busy airport, when I hear things like " we have reached capacity " it makes me
Sure, with the BS use of RWs and ridiculous 10 mile seperation, they may well have " reached capacity " , so are they just going to keep screwing over the customer ( us ) or are they going to do something about it ? Hang on, stupid question, it is Perth after all.
Also, why the hell do they bother printing departure procedures for 24 when they are never used ? Why have 6 A/C lined up on whiskey when 2-3 of those could be filed across to 24 instead of doing FA while waiting for wake seperation or worse, trg A/c doing an ILS, dont start me on that one .
Dodge, spot on, they ( the powers that be ? ) are convinced it is a busy airport, when I hear things like " we have reached capacity " it makes me
Sure, with the BS use of RWs and ridiculous 10 mile seperation, they may well have " reached capacity " , so are they just going to keep screwing over the customer ( us ) or are they going to do something about it ? Hang on, stupid question, it is Perth after all.
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Why not follow countries that ARE actually busy and implement their system and learn from their experience?
Founded in 1995, Metron Aviation pioneered the advancement of air traffic flow management (ATFM), working with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to develop the industry’s first collaborative decision making (CDM) platform for optimizing system-wide traffic flow. Metron Aviation provides concept engineering, advanced research, software development, traffic flow management, surface operations management, airspace design and environmental research and analysis solutions to the global aviation industry. Metron Aviation fuses advanced science and mathematics with unparalleled subject-matter expertise to turn groundbreaking air traffic management (ATM) research concepts into next-generation operational capabilities.
Recently, Metron Aviation was the recipient of the largest small business award in FAA history, System Engineering 2020 (SE-2020). Additionally, South Africa’s air traffic and navigation services (ATNS) began live operations with Metron Aviation’s ATFM solution this year, while Airservices Australia is in the process of deploying the ATFM solution to support its long-term gate-to-gate CDM vision.
Recently, Metron Aviation was the recipient of the largest small business award in FAA history, System Engineering 2020 (SE-2020). Additionally, South Africa’s air traffic and navigation services (ATNS) began live operations with Metron Aviation’s ATFM solution this year, while Airservices Australia is in the process of deploying the ATFM solution to support its long-term gate-to-gate CDM vision.
As far as I can tell the noise abatement priorities are weighted towards arrivals rather than departures. If you think about it, 21/24 flight paths are almost the same as 03/06, e.g. a 21 departure is a 03 arrival.
The ten miles trail comes form required spacing for landing. At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed, the runway won't be clear when you need a landing clearance. You can't be slower than preceding traffic because you run out of slower speeds for each successive arrival. (I gather that in the US the RWY does not need to be clear for a landing clearance to be issued, but rules like that are out of ATC hands in Aus). Remember, for an arrivals sequence, the further apart I need to spread you out the more work I have to do. Likewise the more a/c we can land per hour, the less work I have to do, so I can assure you it's not laziness.
For departures the bottleneck is not the runways but the airspace out to about 50nm. We've done this to death in various other threads, but remember when your wheels leave the ground you aircraft becomes 3nm wide and 3nm long. When you call ML centre at about 10nm out, you become it becomes 5nm.
Personally I think the next thing to do is 'sequence' the departures. If aircraft are being delayed on the ground anyway, why not put then in the most efficient order? Rather than say 5 turbos nose to tail to the NE then 6 jets one after another to the north (146's and F100's in front of B737's as often as not).
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Thanks for the explanation Nautilus, I personally think most of the ATC people do the best they can but it's a crap system with, obviously, too much seperation and it's only going to get worse as traffic continues to increase. Other airports around the world handle far more traffic with 2 runways with their own unique problems as well eg terrain, airspace etc.
Something other than WAC and/or AA sticking their heads in the sand and saying we've reached capacity, needs to be done.
BTW, I think noise wise nothing competes with a droning, climbing at 160IAS turboprop.
Something other than WAC and/or AA sticking their heads in the sand and saying we've reached capacity, needs to be done.
BTW, I think noise wise nothing competes with a droning, climbing at 160IAS turboprop.
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The ten miles trail comes form required spacing for landing. At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed, the runway won't be clear when you need a landing clearance.
A lot of things may have been "done to death" but air traffic control in this country continues to be inefficient and amongst the worst I have experienced anywhere in the world year in year out. Despite the whatever we hear from ASA the "emperor continues to be naked".
Nothing personal towards anyone, just a cold hard fact.
Seriously? How many minutes apart do you think 10 miles represents at 30 miles? 2 - 2.5 minutes is the correct answer. The actual distance is immaterial (aside from maintaining a radar standard), it's how much time it represents that counts because that's the time spacing onto the runway.
How long does it take you from crossing the fence to vacating the runway? What about when there aren't adequate high speed exits?
I do arrivals into ML & if I hand off a domestic behind an International heavy with much less than 12 miles there won't be 5 miles on final without intervention.
How long does it take you from crossing the fence to vacating the runway? What about when there aren't adequate high speed exits?
I do arrivals into ML & if I hand off a domestic behind an International heavy with much less than 12 miles there won't be 5 miles on final without intervention.
Talking about delays and sorry for the slight thread drift but - The almost fanatical accent on `on-time` push backs invariably results in rushed cockpit checks which is not exactly conducive to the principles of flight safety.
Media published `on-time` figures may impress the self loading suits and bogans, but they don't see the hidden risks involved. Too many times the captain is forced to defend his actions to management if delays occur with management taking the view of the captain is guilty unless later proved innocent. Then the witch-hunt starts.
Everyone involved in the rush for on-time departure is eager to deflect blame back to the captain. I for one would regard the airline with the best `on-time` record as one to be careful about flying with. What vital checks have been missed in the rush...
Media published `on-time` figures may impress the self loading suits and bogans, but they don't see the hidden risks involved. Too many times the captain is forced to defend his actions to management if delays occur with management taking the view of the captain is guilty unless later proved innocent. Then the witch-hunt starts.
Everyone involved in the rush for on-time departure is eager to deflect blame back to the captain. I for one would regard the airline with the best `on-time` record as one to be careful about flying with. What vital checks have been missed in the rush...
Everyone involved in the rush for on-time departure is eager to deflect blame back to the captain. I for one would regard the airline with the best `on-time` record as one to be careful about flying with. What vital checks have been missed in the rush...
Virgin is 2nd worst
Jetstar is the best.
and back when tiger had a 50% on time just before they were grounded, they were the most thorough.. obviously.
Good OTP is possible if everything is going to according to plan. If it's not going the plan I'd like to know which company would punish the pilot for not departing on schedule.
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At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed
I'm sorry but every international airport that I have flown to/from outside good OL Aus (and there has been a few) requires a 5 mile separation between landing aircraft and the runway is always bloody well clear every time. Yet we require 10?
Be nice if someone had the balls to make all pilots fly a standard decel profile... Now that would be an ACE idea...
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" airlines with the best OTP are the ones to be weary of ".....now I've heard everything.
Nautilus, 5nm from in excess of 100nm out, HK is one example.
Bloggsy, yes you hit the nail on the head, all pilots maintaining the same speeds, if you can't maintain 250IAS til 15 miles ( all things, weather/turbulence etc being equal ) then you really shouldn't be in charge or 2IC of an aircraft. (ok, unless your airframe is not capable of that)
In the US there are speed requirements which if not met will mean you go to the back of the queue, as it should be.
Like Hoof said, it's a turd and it can't be polished, changes need to be made.
Nautilus, 5nm from in excess of 100nm out, HK is one example.
Bloggsy, yes you hit the nail on the head, all pilots maintaining the same speeds, if you can't maintain 250IAS til 15 miles ( all things, weather/turbulence etc being equal ) then you really shouldn't be in charge or 2IC of an aircraft. (ok, unless your airframe is not capable of that)
In the US there are speed requirements which if not met will mean you go to the back of the queue, as it should be.
Like Hoof said, it's a turd and it can't be polished, changes need to be made.
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I'm certainly not saying the whole system isn't broken, just trying to explain my little bit of it 
Interesting, a few follow on questions if I may?
- is that for unrestricted descent or step descent on top of preceding traffic?
- what speed control if any?
- is that straight in or onto downwind?
- what typically is the time from latest possible landing clearance to clear of runway?
PS re profiles, speed is only half the issue, alt is the other. For example, a domestic 737 10-12 miles behind an international A330 can easily be 10,000' higher. In practice you need considerable difference in IAS to match ground speeds.
5nm from in excess of 100nm out, HK is one example
- is that for unrestricted descent or step descent on top of preceding traffic?
- what speed control if any?
- is that straight in or onto downwind?
- what typically is the time from latest possible landing clearance to clear of runway?
PS re profiles, speed is only half the issue, alt is the other. For example, a domestic 737 10-12 miles behind an international A330 can easily be 10,000' higher. In practice you need considerable difference in IAS to match ground speeds.
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Nautilus :
Generally speed control only, usually 250IAS to begin with 230IAS by 30nm and then 210IAS 15-20nm, of course if a local (or other) airline decided they wanted to do their own thing then all bets were off.
Usually straight in or a wide base.
Med behind heavy, min 5 miles on final, med behind med could be down to 3nm but yes they do have high speed exits, mind you once again evryones idea of hi speed seemed to vary somewhat, down to around 10-15kts .
Thats the attitude I was looking for, ever been to a busy airport ?
As useless as holding for 10-20 mins ? or as useless as slowing down to min clean speed at 400nm out ?? both of which happen in Perth more than 50% of the time.
Generally speed control only, usually 250IAS to begin with 230IAS by 30nm and then 210IAS 15-20nm, of course if a local (or other) airline decided they wanted to do their own thing then all bets were off.
Usually straight in or a wide base.
Med behind heavy, min 5 miles on final, med behind med could be down to 3nm but yes they do have high speed exits, mind you once again evryones idea of hi speed seemed to vary somewhat, down to around 10-15kts .
5nm from 100nm. If you want lots of early speed control, step descents with multiple level assignement, and some vectors thrown in. Which sounds useless
As useless as holding for 10-20 mins ? or as useless as slowing down to min clean speed at 400nm out ?? both of which happen in Perth more than 50% of the time.
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OK, something doesn't compute. I know that if I have a heavy in front of a medium, 5 miles apart at 100nm, both descending at 250 kts, they will not still be 5 nm apart at 40nm let alone on final. The same way two like types will open up on climb out, even two like types will close on descent. How do the HK controllers stop the distance from closing up?