Seperation Standards, Near Misses, ATSB Reports - SAFETY Compromised??
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Seperation Standards, Near Misses, ATSB Reports - SAFETY Compromised??
It is a time of the year to reflect on the broader picture going into a New Year - 2012
I read the ATSB [October 2011 event] report, Investigation: AO-2011-131 - Breakdown of separation - Airbus A320, VH-VGR and Boeing 737, VH-VOD, near Melbourne Airport, Vic., 12 October 2011 which refers to the broader issue of AirServices and seperation standards, training and a range of other issues following the 5th December 2010 event. [http://atsb.gov.au/publications/inve...-2010-104.asp].
Ben Sandilands raises this in late October, but this is an on-going issue.
Australian jets in peril in new near miss inquiries | Plane Talking
Two of the blogs show the spin the industry is placing on this, and I place these in full:
dnsmax Posted October 14, 2011 at 10:27 am | Permalink
Ben, Your blog is one of the only true sources of non-mainstream media (becoming more mainstream I note) that readers have to turn to with respect to Aviation matters. News are captured by their advertisers (QF, JQ etc) so I expect nothing honest from them.
But I would expect better from you than to comb press releases from the ATSB that they are investigating a breakdown of separation that occurred only two days ago, and shrilly announce and impending metal rain because of incompetence by Air Traffic Controllers!
If like the other reports, questions are raised about the training and checking standards, qualifications, fatigue etc of the controllers, then fine – go investigative and reveal the shortcomings. But give the ATSB a few minutes to produce a preliminary report! Not all BOS are caused by the controllers – often there are issues in the cockpit, in the procedures, in the FMC database, in language…. a myriad of things that can line up on the day.
Ben Sandilands Posted October 14, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink
dnsmax, In the business jet incident the notification is unambiguous. It says (as linked in the report) “Separation standards were infringed when a Gulfstream G-IV was cleared to descend through the same level as a Boeing 737 on a crossing track.”
In the Tullamarine incident the word the ATSB usually uses as short hand for a pilot issue which is ‘procedural’ is missing. This subtlety seems to have been consistently used by the ATSB for some time, however, it is indeed a possibility that Jetstar or Virgin Australia departed from the usual pre-occupations of a climb out and decided to get close, or made some other procedural error that will be spelled out by the ATSB.
Whatever it proves to be, it will be reported here, and as is always the case, the original material will be hyperlinked so that readers can draw their own conclusions.
A careful reading of ATSB and for that most other safety investigation reports is always rewarding because the short summary never truly encompasses the full value, and they are where the investigation often lays bare the heart of the matter at hand.
My thoughts are as follows:
Just a bit more "jargonese" for there not being a massive and very big "smoking hole". Remember, the original changes to air traffic control world wide have their roots in the mid-air in USA over the Grand Canyon.
I am sure another one would get even more publicity and the amount of "political spin" on this would be huge. Reports such as this are meant to give a means to fixing problems, but what we seem to get today is "spin doctoring" to explain away the little problem. Have a look at the MOU between casa [my choice - little letters] and BASI. And I ask if this is about getting "the report" fixed at an early stage. This is what is inferred here.
Have another little look at the lengths casa went to in the Lockhart River and Toowoomba crashes. Who does Ian Harvey get around $250,000 a year from - casa records show in the annual report of 2010 to 2011 $154,736, Ian Harvey in the Lockahrt River inquest was "Counsel assisting the Coroner".
You make up your own mind whether our Australian system of "SAFETY" is being compromised.
I read the ATSB [October 2011 event] report, Investigation: AO-2011-131 - Breakdown of separation - Airbus A320, VH-VGR and Boeing 737, VH-VOD, near Melbourne Airport, Vic., 12 October 2011 which refers to the broader issue of AirServices and seperation standards, training and a range of other issues following the 5th December 2010 event. [http://atsb.gov.au/publications/inve...-2010-104.asp].
Ben Sandilands raises this in late October, but this is an on-going issue.
Australian jets in peril in new near miss inquiries | Plane Talking
Two of the blogs show the spin the industry is placing on this, and I place these in full:
dnsmax Posted October 14, 2011 at 10:27 am | Permalink
Ben, Your blog is one of the only true sources of non-mainstream media (becoming more mainstream I note) that readers have to turn to with respect to Aviation matters. News are captured by their advertisers (QF, JQ etc) so I expect nothing honest from them.
But I would expect better from you than to comb press releases from the ATSB that they are investigating a breakdown of separation that occurred only two days ago, and shrilly announce and impending metal rain because of incompetence by Air Traffic Controllers!
If like the other reports, questions are raised about the training and checking standards, qualifications, fatigue etc of the controllers, then fine – go investigative and reveal the shortcomings. But give the ATSB a few minutes to produce a preliminary report! Not all BOS are caused by the controllers – often there are issues in the cockpit, in the procedures, in the FMC database, in language…. a myriad of things that can line up on the day.
Ben Sandilands Posted October 14, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink
dnsmax, In the business jet incident the notification is unambiguous. It says (as linked in the report) “Separation standards were infringed when a Gulfstream G-IV was cleared to descend through the same level as a Boeing 737 on a crossing track.”
In the Tullamarine incident the word the ATSB usually uses as short hand for a pilot issue which is ‘procedural’ is missing. This subtlety seems to have been consistently used by the ATSB for some time, however, it is indeed a possibility that Jetstar or Virgin Australia departed from the usual pre-occupations of a climb out and decided to get close, or made some other procedural error that will be spelled out by the ATSB.
Whatever it proves to be, it will be reported here, and as is always the case, the original material will be hyperlinked so that readers can draw their own conclusions.
A careful reading of ATSB and for that most other safety investigation reports is always rewarding because the short summary never truly encompasses the full value, and they are where the investigation often lays bare the heart of the matter at hand.
My thoughts are as follows:
Just a bit more "jargonese" for there not being a massive and very big "smoking hole". Remember, the original changes to air traffic control world wide have their roots in the mid-air in USA over the Grand Canyon.
I am sure another one would get even more publicity and the amount of "political spin" on this would be huge. Reports such as this are meant to give a means to fixing problems, but what we seem to get today is "spin doctoring" to explain away the little problem. Have a look at the MOU between casa [my choice - little letters] and BASI. And I ask if this is about getting "the report" fixed at an early stage. This is what is inferred here.
Have another little look at the lengths casa went to in the Lockhart River and Toowoomba crashes. Who does Ian Harvey get around $250,000 a year from - casa records show in the annual report of 2010 to 2011 $154,736, Ian Harvey in the Lockahrt River inquest was "Counsel assisting the Coroner".
You make up your own mind whether our Australian system of "SAFETY" is being compromised.
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Ben is not always correct.
Know and like Ben very well; gentleman, scholar, enthusiast. But over the last, lets say twelve months, he has been a little off the beam.
For instance; hammering the poor, benighted ATSB, who do not have a feather to fly with is a bit OTT. Financially, politically and man power wise, they simply cannot keep up with the increasing demand for service.
Look at their Senate submission (Pilot Training etc. etc.). They simply do not have the resources to respond correctly and in full. This is a real story; the voice of reason, supported by fact and considered technical advice. Invaluable?, you bet. Lost to us because casa gets the big bucks. Does bull-dust baffles brains ? - Oh I think so.
The road to Nirvana is paved with bodies. Real bodies, real blood, real fire, real sea water, real passengers, real pilots; all with families.
The road to perdition is paved with spin, grandiose statements and endless amounts of dubious, inutile pony pooh; i.e. casa speak.
Best New year present - give ATSB the money, the horsepower and my best wishes.
H.N.Y all. ) excluding the obvious(
Selah.
For instance; hammering the poor, benighted ATSB, who do not have a feather to fly with is a bit OTT. Financially, politically and man power wise, they simply cannot keep up with the increasing demand for service.
Look at their Senate submission (Pilot Training etc. etc.). They simply do not have the resources to respond correctly and in full. This is a real story; the voice of reason, supported by fact and considered technical advice. Invaluable?, you bet. Lost to us because casa gets the big bucks. Does bull-dust baffles brains ? - Oh I think so.
The road to Nirvana is paved with bodies. Real bodies, real blood, real fire, real sea water, real passengers, real pilots; all with families.
The road to perdition is paved with spin, grandiose statements and endless amounts of dubious, inutile pony pooh; i.e. casa speak.
Best New year present - give ATSB the money, the horsepower and my best wishes.
H.N.Y all. ) excluding the obvious(
Selah.
Last edited by Kharon; 31st Dec 2011 at 08:39. Reason: The usual suspects.
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Pony poo indeed
Kharon,
Couldn't agree more about the ATSB issue. There are some very talented investigators there, but the number of the 'old school' is gradually diminishing, much to the bureaucratic managements delight. The ATSB has been short staffed for years, try the last 5 to 10 in particular. In that same period of time air travel has grown, low cost carrier services grown rapidly, airline CEO's have become even bigger morons and the Regulator who can't even bring in a set of rules in a 23 year time frame has become an even bigger basket case than ever in it's pathetic history.
This has lead to more accidents/incidents and a greater workload in which the ATSB have to trudge through. The poor investigators have to then deal with bureaucratic management who fudge the figures to make the organization smell like roses while behind the scenes it doesn't.
Then we have the issue of a Regulator hell bent on nailing industry to a cross (select members of industry that is) while being run by sycophants. Even the ATSB in the past 18 months has started handing out section 32's like lollies because CASA is murdering any industry trust and the only way the ATSB can get people to talk is to flick them a S32. So what does that tell you about the Regulator? A sad state of affairs indeed.
Up-into-the-air, you make a good post. Our industry has a lot to ponder over and reflect upon. There is always hope that 2012 will be a better one for aviation, but I have yet to see even an inkling of that.
I shall leave 2011 and enter into 2012 the way I see it - TICK TOCK TICK TOCK.
Couldn't agree more about the ATSB issue. There are some very talented investigators there, but the number of the 'old school' is gradually diminishing, much to the bureaucratic managements delight. The ATSB has been short staffed for years, try the last 5 to 10 in particular. In that same period of time air travel has grown, low cost carrier services grown rapidly, airline CEO's have become even bigger morons and the Regulator who can't even bring in a set of rules in a 23 year time frame has become an even bigger basket case than ever in it's pathetic history.
This has lead to more accidents/incidents and a greater workload in which the ATSB have to trudge through. The poor investigators have to then deal with bureaucratic management who fudge the figures to make the organization smell like roses while behind the scenes it doesn't.
Then we have the issue of a Regulator hell bent on nailing industry to a cross (select members of industry that is) while being run by sycophants. Even the ATSB in the past 18 months has started handing out section 32's like lollies because CASA is murdering any industry trust and the only way the ATSB can get people to talk is to flick them a S32. So what does that tell you about the Regulator? A sad state of affairs indeed.
Up-into-the-air, you make a good post. Our industry has a lot to ponder over and reflect upon. There is always hope that 2012 will be a better one for aviation, but I have yet to see even an inkling of that.
I shall leave 2011 and enter into 2012 the way I see it - TICK TOCK TICK TOCK.
You make up your own mind whether our Australian system of "SAFETY" is being compromised.
The slightest hint of a flight safety issue in Australia (whether real or imagined) attracts the Australian media like bees to honey - but beyond our shores the media frenzy quickly vanishes.
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ATSB not correctly funded - casa overfunded
SUGGESTION 2 for a positive change to go forward in 2012:
Fix ATSB’s funding.
In the recent Senate Committee into ATSB put a submission as submission 25 [http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committ...bmissions.htm] for the Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety Including the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reporting) Bill 2010
It reads in part:
In 2009 – 10 the ATSB received approximately 15 100 notifications through its mandatory accident and incident reporting system (8 393 were classified as safety occurrences). During that period the ATSB had the resources to commence 70 new investigations. Ten safety research and analysis reports were released in this period.
I don't think they are going to get on top of this easily.
The funding issues is great also, which covers all the ATSB marine, aviation and road responsibilities, as shown below [casa has over $170m]:
SUGGESTION 2 for a positive change to go forward in 2012:
Fix ATSB’s funding.
In the recent Senate Committee into ATSB put a submission as submission 25 [http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committ...bmissions.htm] for the Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety Including the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reporting) Bill 2010
It reads in part:
In 2009 – 10 the ATSB received approximately 15 100 notifications through its mandatory accident and incident reporting system (8 393 were classified as safety occurrences). During that period the ATSB had the resources to commence 70 new investigations. Ten safety research and analysis reports were released in this period.
I don't think they are going to get on top of this easily.
The funding issues is great also, which covers all the ATSB marine, aviation and road responsibilities, as shown below [casa has over $170m]:
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 5th Jan 2012 at 03:00. Reason: Images!!
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Separation Standards
Looks like the separation standards have been well and truly breached. Have 's and have not.
Truly a disgusting situation, the ATSB guys try to contribute to the well being of the Australian traveler, who well and truly qualifies as a have have not; safety that is.
GMWATF- FDIH. (don't ask).
casa Integrity survey.
Truly a disgusting situation, the ATSB guys try to contribute to the well being of the Australian traveler, who well and truly qualifies as a have have not; safety that is.
GMWATF- FDIH. (don't ask).
casa Integrity survey.
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A few years ago, I think, CASA operated on about $115M. Kharon, will correct me if I am too far off the mark; I'm sure.
It seems to me that income has gone up and service has got significantly worse! ... or am I the only one who has noticed that? The CASA guys I deal with tell me that they all have too much to do.
Does anyone know what is the proportion of operational guys verses the total staff numbers?
It seems to me that income has gone up and service has got significantly worse! ... or am I the only one who has noticed that? The CASA guys I deal with tell me that they all have too much to do.
Does anyone know what is the proportion of operational guys verses the total staff numbers?
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So ... Assuming my calculations are correct - its 299 'operational people' out of 786 or about 38%. I appreciate that some back office staff and managers are required but, what does the other 62% do to improve aviation safety?
A quick perusal of the FAA and the NTSB annual budget figures show some surprising differences: 2011 FAA 16.5 billion vs NTSB 100 million.
However the big difference is the NTSB has a larger 'Head of Power' and can quite literally boss the FAA around when it comes to safety deficiencies in the regulations.
Therein lies the problem with the Australian system ie 'The Investigator vs The Regulator'.
However the big difference is the NTSB has a larger 'Head of Power' and can quite literally boss the FAA around when it comes to safety deficiencies in the regulations.
Therein lies the problem with the Australian system ie 'The Investigator vs The Regulator'.
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casa vs FAA
How much money??
FAA is responsible for airspace as well as the other issues. The mission statement says:
Our Mission
Our continuing mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world.
Our Vision
We strive to reach the next level of safety, efficiency, environmental responsibility and global leadership. We are accountable to the American public and our stakeholders.
Our Values
FAA is responsible for airspace as well as the other issues. The mission statement says:
Our Mission
Our continuing mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world.
Our Vision
We strive to reach the next level of safety, efficiency, environmental responsibility and global leadership. We are accountable to the American public and our stakeholders.
Our Values
- Safety is our passion. We work so all air and space travelers arrive safely at their destinations.
- Excellence is our promise. We seek results that embody professionalism, transparency and accountability.
- Integrity is our touchstone. We perform our duties honestly, with moral soundness, and with the highest level of ethics.
- People are our strength. Our success depends on the respect, diversity, collaboration, and commitment of our workforce.
- Innovation is our signature. We foster creativity and vision to provide solutions beyond today's boundaries.
Yeah not a good comparison I know!
God forbid if CASA were in charge of the airspace in Oz!
The world's biggest and busiest airspace system, but surprisingly their system works. Ours...well..ours is sorely encumbered by an inept authority and probably would be regarded as third world if we had any where near the traffic of the US!
Sheesh..its embarassing really
FAA is responsible for airspace as well as the other issues.
The world's biggest and busiest airspace system, but surprisingly their system works. Ours...well..ours is sorely encumbered by an inept authority and probably would be regarded as third world if we had any where near the traffic of the US!
Sheesh..its embarassing really
