Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011
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Boyd – on Systems Audit.
The document referred to earlier related to a speech annotated System Auditing Compliance: attributed to Peter Boyd Manager, Compliance and practices.
We cannot guarantee the veracity or provenance of the PDF version provided on Zippyshare; N.B. This is a working notes document which we keep on file for ease of reference only; it has been reformatted (text, paper and font) to suit editorial purposes. The PAIN version should not be quoted or relied upon.
The actual document is available on the CASA website, the link should direct you to the 'official' version.
P1 a.k.a. P1.
Zippy version - "Download Now" only button, top right corner.
We cannot guarantee the veracity or provenance of the PDF version provided on Zippyshare; N.B. This is a working notes document which we keep on file for ease of reference only; it has been reformatted (text, paper and font) to suit editorial purposes. The PAIN version should not be quoted or relied upon.
The actual document is available on the CASA website, the link should direct you to the 'official' version.
P1 a.k.a. P1.
Zippy version - "Download Now" only button, top right corner.
Last edited by PAIN_NET; 7th Mar 2013 at 04:50. Reason: Typo - Boyd - not Gibson.
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The Gerbil syndrome.
At the Bar Room Barristers last evening the topic was, what sort of inquiry would best serve the Industry. Cost v benefit and consideration of both domestic and international fallout was discussed in a fairly robust, although sanguine manner. Clearly, something needs to be done; and, importantly needs to be seen to be done.
In the end one of the several options discussed became the BRB choice. The 'lads' thought maybe (just maybe) the troops on Pprune had an opinion, so I agreed to ask.
Options 1 and 2) - A Royal Commission: or, Judicial Inquiry into CASA and ATSB.
Voted as being, too slow, expensive, 'general' and historically; not overly effective. Both are viewed as a blunt instrument; a vague, 'wide', broad brush enquiry could drag on for nearly as long as the regulatory reform program and probably be about as effective. CASA are veterans at avoiding flack during these stage managed events. (Long list available on application).
Option 3) - A 'surgical', narrow scope, independent investigation by IOSA (ICAO) qualified auditors. Centred on the actions, facts and circumstances surrounding the handling of the Pel Air fiasco. Investigate the "investigation"; audit the "audits"; test the subsequent actions. Clearly define just who did what to whom and who paid. Tight focus on the originating (Sydney) office, the actions of the manager responsible for running the Pel Air "Audit and investigation", the reporting of it and the degree of ATSB involvement in the matter would yield stellar results. The great "Townsville Office" debacle in Qld which Byron (bless) sorted out, was very effectively conducted in this manner.
We all agreed, this approach would provide a relatively inexpensive solution which could be executed with some degree of speed. The investigation would provide an 'in-depth' analysis of exactly what went on behind Oleo's famous "Chamber door". Such an investigation would produce 'hard', believable evidence; one way or the other, offering the Senate Committee a stable platform from which to generate meaningful recommendations.
Cheap, effective and cheerful.
A side benefit is that the 'honest' ATSB and CASA folk in other offices would not, at least initially be dragged into the embarrassing mess, which we believe can be attributed to the handiwork of only a few people. It must be stated that although only hearsay, there have been for a number of years now, horror stories leaking out of the Sydney region, all related to local management requirements impacting on the local CASA team. Perhaps there will be an opportunity at the inquiry to have the "Bankstown Stories" examined at the same time. Now there's a happy thought.
Anyway – you're all big enough, ugly enough and old enough to decide; but, that's the BRB's two bobs worth. What say you ????.
PS. I went for the 'tar and feathers' option, narrowly defeated - but it is a democracy and I can dream. Yuk, yuk, yak.
In the end one of the several options discussed became the BRB choice. The 'lads' thought maybe (just maybe) the troops on Pprune had an opinion, so I agreed to ask.
Options 1 and 2) - A Royal Commission: or, Judicial Inquiry into CASA and ATSB.
Voted as being, too slow, expensive, 'general' and historically; not overly effective. Both are viewed as a blunt instrument; a vague, 'wide', broad brush enquiry could drag on for nearly as long as the regulatory reform program and probably be about as effective. CASA are veterans at avoiding flack during these stage managed events. (Long list available on application).
Option 3) - A 'surgical', narrow scope, independent investigation by IOSA (ICAO) qualified auditors. Centred on the actions, facts and circumstances surrounding the handling of the Pel Air fiasco. Investigate the "investigation"; audit the "audits"; test the subsequent actions. Clearly define just who did what to whom and who paid. Tight focus on the originating (Sydney) office, the actions of the manager responsible for running the Pel Air "Audit and investigation", the reporting of it and the degree of ATSB involvement in the matter would yield stellar results. The great "Townsville Office" debacle in Qld which Byron (bless) sorted out, was very effectively conducted in this manner.
We all agreed, this approach would provide a relatively inexpensive solution which could be executed with some degree of speed. The investigation would provide an 'in-depth' analysis of exactly what went on behind Oleo's famous "Chamber door". Such an investigation would produce 'hard', believable evidence; one way or the other, offering the Senate Committee a stable platform from which to generate meaningful recommendations.
Cheap, effective and cheerful.
A side benefit is that the 'honest' ATSB and CASA folk in other offices would not, at least initially be dragged into the embarrassing mess, which we believe can be attributed to the handiwork of only a few people. It must be stated that although only hearsay, there have been for a number of years now, horror stories leaking out of the Sydney region, all related to local management requirements impacting on the local CASA team. Perhaps there will be an opportunity at the inquiry to have the "Bankstown Stories" examined at the same time. Now there's a happy thought.
Anyway – you're all big enough, ugly enough and old enough to decide; but, that's the BRB's two bobs worth. What say you ????.
PS. I went for the 'tar and feathers' option, narrowly defeated - but it is a democracy and I can dream. Yuk, yuk, yak.
Last edited by Kharon; 8th Mar 2013 at 01:00. Reason: Waiting for the fast bowler & missed a bit.
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Gerbils, CASA and option 3
Kharon, the title of your last post containing the word 'Gerbil' conjures up all sorts of disturbing thoughts. I can also assure you that no Gerbil ever made it behind the Green Door!
But your option (3) appeals to me, even though it does not contain waterboarding or electrodes attached to (small) genitals.
Halfmamhalfanzacbiscuit, the SOB appeared to be making inroads into improving safety oversight, however the Manager was reasonably approachable and somewhat younger than his direct report - the Deputy DAS. This Manager, along with the 'Hooded one' were the only two capable of delivering some outcomes, however the apprentices were growing stronger than their Masters so the Sith Lords took away their powers. Not an uncommon event in the world of the CASA. In fact CASA is one of the only organisations in which Silvertailed pensioners wield significant power, except of course Gloria Jeans on pension payment day each fortnight, where their power to force change by way of reduced coffee prices by way of coupon is an amazing event to behold.
'Safe skies are completely restructured skies'
But your option (3) appeals to me, even though it does not contain waterboarding or electrodes attached to (small) genitals.
Halfmamhalfanzacbiscuit, the SOB appeared to be making inroads into improving safety oversight, however the Manager was reasonably approachable and somewhat younger than his direct report - the Deputy DAS. This Manager, along with the 'Hooded one' were the only two capable of delivering some outcomes, however the apprentices were growing stronger than their Masters so the Sith Lords took away their powers. Not an uncommon event in the world of the CASA. In fact CASA is one of the only organisations in which Silvertailed pensioners wield significant power, except of course Gloria Jeans on pension payment day each fortnight, where their power to force change by way of reduced coffee prices by way of coupon is an amazing event to behold.
'Safe skies are completely restructured skies'
Last edited by my oleo is extended; 7th Mar 2013 at 22:48. Reason: Researching the link between Gerbils and P.Swayzee.
This thread seems to have become a depository for all sorts of people with plenty to say with supposed inside knowledge and an understanding of how the "system" works.Of course you know who you are. My question to you is-have you provided submissions to the Senate and are you prepared to back this up with an appearance before the Senate?
If the answer to the first part of the question is yes then you have my whole hearted admiration. If the answer to the second part is no then maybe you should reconsider as you seem to have a lot of info they would be interested in.
If the the answer to both is no then all you are doing is blowing smoke up your own backside by posting a constant stream of cryptic waffle pretending to be more important than you really are.
PPrune is an interesting forum but it is never going to change the way various government agencies do business if the information and insight you possess only makes an appearance on these threads.
And before the stones get hurled, yes and yes.
If the answer to the first part of the question is yes then you have my whole hearted admiration. If the answer to the second part is no then maybe you should reconsider as you seem to have a lot of info they would be interested in.
If the the answer to both is no then all you are doing is blowing smoke up your own backside by posting a constant stream of cryptic waffle pretending to be more important than you really are.
PPrune is an interesting forum but it is never going to change the way various government agencies do business if the information and insight you possess only makes an appearance on these threads.
And before the stones get hurled, yes and yes.
That'd be a yes..yes for me too Leftie old son!
And option 3 is a good choice "K", you open up one festering, corrupt rathole then it tests the veracity and sanitary procedures of all the others!
ps And a choccy frog to each of the members of the BRB. It's amazing what you can come up with over a few coldies!
And option 3 is a good choice "K", you open up one festering, corrupt rathole then it tests the veracity and sanitary procedures of all the others!ps And a choccy frog to each of the members of the BRB. It's amazing what you can come up with over a few coldies!
Last edited by Sarcs; 8th Mar 2013 at 00:44.
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casa atsb and the Senate Inquiry
Yes, yes, yes and yes.
and follow ups
And did watch each corrupt "movement" by Mi, Mi Beaker and the FF charade.
Go good Senators.
and follow ups
And did watch each corrupt "movement" by Mi, Mi Beaker and the FF charade.
Go good Senators.
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"PPRuNe is an interesting forum but it is never going to change the way various government agencies do business..."
Would have to disagree slight there old bean.
The vitriol hurled at Dom James when this initially happened was nothing short of astonishing!
Private pilots who have mates who have airline pilots with an opinion, various staff members of various departments, FBO clowns and the 'Lear jet Captains"... all had an opinion and posted it on here. Funny how a lot of those opinions seemed to make their way into the corridors of power!!!
The fact this forum is public contributed somewhat to the shambles!!
Don't bother to ask how I know...I just do, though Sarcs, Kharon and others will certainly have a good idea where I'm coming from!
I'll ask it again...when are the individuals who unloaded on the lad on this forum without a scremnent of a clue as to what was happening, going to apologise to Mr James?!?!
Because really, that's what this is all about. A bloke getting a fair go.
Would have to disagree slight there old bean.
The vitriol hurled at Dom James when this initially happened was nothing short of astonishing!
Private pilots who have mates who have airline pilots with an opinion, various staff members of various departments, FBO clowns and the 'Lear jet Captains"... all had an opinion and posted it on here. Funny how a lot of those opinions seemed to make their way into the corridors of power!!!
The fact this forum is public contributed somewhat to the shambles!!
Don't bother to ask how I know...I just do, though Sarcs, Kharon and others will certainly have a good idea where I'm coming from!
I'll ask it again...when are the individuals who unloaded on the lad on this forum without a scremnent of a clue as to what was happening, going to apologise to Mr James?!?!
Because really, that's what this is all about. A bloke getting a fair go.
Last edited by GADRIVR; 8th Mar 2013 at 03:03.
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OK, so now that Hoodie's role is advertised in the Australian, lets have some nominations.
It would be nice to think that they were nominations of folk that exist outside of the goon show etc., but I fear I'm in a dreamworld on that wish.
I'm genuinely interested to hear who fellow PPruners believe may add value to the CASA ranks and make headway in positioning the organisation as an industry stakeholder that commands respect.
It would be nice to think that they were nominations of folk that exist outside of the goon show etc., but I fear I'm in a dreamworld on that wish.
I'm genuinely interested to hear who fellow PPruners believe may add value to the CASA ranks and make headway in positioning the organisation as an industry stakeholder that commands respect.
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New York Times
Here's a recent article in the "big apple" that goes to the heart of this matter:
http://christinenegroni.********.com...stigation.html
or:
Media reports
Good to see it make it off-shore.
FAA are you watching??
http://christinenegroni.********.com...stigation.html
or:
Media reports
Good to see it make it off-shore.
FAA are you watching??
Good catch UITA!
I especially love these bits (my bold)...
Oh and Karen Casey crops up again....so FF and ATSBeaker here's another...
Reality Check..
Reality Check over...
No option 3 will do..along with a full and frank review of the now infamous accident investigation and dodgy final report by an independent, properly ICAO accredited, accident investigation body!
I especially love these bits (my bold)...
McCormick's astonishing reply - as reported by Australian aviation reporter Ben Sandilands - was that McCormick did not consider the information relevant since, the accident was entirely the fault of the captain.
Though you probably don't need them, let me repeat that with italics; entirely the fault of the captain.
I was still trying to fathom how anyone with the title "director of aviation safety" could utter those words when I read his further rationale. The information was withheld from the safety board so as "not to contaminate its decision making." Yup, if you keep information from investigators, it won't affect their decisions, and that's what we call uninformed decisions. Most folks try to avoid them.
Between the ATSB's skim-the-surface conclusion in its probe, and CASA's retro-style, blame-the-folks at the pointy end of the accident, something very strange is going on in Australia's air safety world. When the guys with the pocket protectors launch in with the double talk and the politicians start to sound reasonable, that's upside down, no matter what side of the equator you're flying on.
Though you probably don't need them, let me repeat that with italics; entirely the fault of the captain.
I was still trying to fathom how anyone with the title "director of aviation safety" could utter those words when I read his further rationale. The information was withheld from the safety board so as "not to contaminate its decision making." Yup, if you keep information from investigators, it won't affect their decisions, and that's what we call uninformed decisions. Most folks try to avoid them.
Between the ATSB's skim-the-surface conclusion in its probe, and CASA's retro-style, blame-the-folks at the pointy end of the accident, something very strange is going on in Australia's air safety world. When the guys with the pocket protectors launch in with the double talk and the politicians start to sound reasonable, that's upside down, no matter what side of the equator you're flying on.
Reality Check..
Reality check. There is a current Senate inquiry into NGAs ditching that has alleged collusion between the ATSB and CASA, big no-no for that one. The other disgrace is the covering up of important documents that would have affected the reports' outcome quite remarkedly.Facts are emerging rapidly that suggest the above mentioned and more. For one to state that the ATSB report is accurate is dangerous and ignorant, not smart for air safety.
I survived that ditching. The experience of it all, I will leave to your imagination, hint...life threatening, terrified, sharks, freezing.
What has been most disappointing to me in the aftermath besides physical disability, pain and scoring a mental illness, is knowing that the airline I was on were incompetent and sadly two very important Government body leaders have lied to me. An extremely bitter pill to swallow.
I owe my life to an exceptionally difficult ditching considering the conditions, pitch black, storm, high swells etc to the skilled, calm pilots. I owe my life to fighting with all my might.
I now fight for the truth to get air safety right here in Australia. I advocate this for the public, my loved ones fly too.
I will not fly again until there is a re-structure of both parties and honest, evaluation and implementation of safety are practiced by leaders that are willing to learn.
I am not afraid of dying in a plane crash, I am scared of surviving again and living with the physical, psychological and deceitful amount of grief that I and others have endured over the past three years and four months.
There is a much bigger picture beneath the pieces of the bits of connecting puzzle.March 6, 2013 at 11:29 AM
I survived that ditching. The experience of it all, I will leave to your imagination, hint...life threatening, terrified, sharks, freezing.
What has been most disappointing to me in the aftermath besides physical disability, pain and scoring a mental illness, is knowing that the airline I was on were incompetent and sadly two very important Government body leaders have lied to me. An extremely bitter pill to swallow.
I owe my life to an exceptionally difficult ditching considering the conditions, pitch black, storm, high swells etc to the skilled, calm pilots. I owe my life to fighting with all my might.
I now fight for the truth to get air safety right here in Australia. I advocate this for the public, my loved ones fly too.
I will not fly again until there is a re-structure of both parties and honest, evaluation and implementation of safety are practiced by leaders that are willing to learn.
I am not afraid of dying in a plane crash, I am scared of surviving again and living with the physical, psychological and deceitful amount of grief that I and others have endured over the past three years and four months.
There is a much bigger picture beneath the pieces of the bits of connecting puzzle.March 6, 2013 at 11:29 AM
No option 3 will do..along with a full and frank review of the now infamous accident investigation and dodgy final report by an independent, properly ICAO accredited, accident investigation body!
Last edited by Sarcs; 8th Mar 2013 at 03:19.
One of the crowd....
YES and yes. And hopefully at the end of it all there will be blood xxxxx cross that out, I mean change.
If not.....???
Concur. Pel-air investigation, with black boxes lifted, needs to be done with an overseas 'cold case' group. No agenda, no conflictions, no arses to cover.
To find, as the good nurse wants ...and deserves THE TRUTH.
Is that so difficult?
If not.....???
Concur. Pel-air investigation, with black boxes lifted, needs to be done with an overseas 'cold case' group. No agenda, no conflictions, no arses to cover.
To find, as the good nurse wants ...and deserves THE TRUTH.
Is that so difficult?
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Step right up FAA and read all about it!
Lookleft, blah blah and blah. This is a rumour network, don't come on here asking questions of others. Some have graciously answered your question, so you are fortunate, I am sure many others will ignore you or PM you a reply which sounds similar to 'get stuffed'.
That's What She Said, the rumour on the street is that 'the Hooded ones' position will go to one of CASA's purported bald bullyboys, Herr Campbell, or to the former SSS who is now JQ's Safety Manager. All scurrilous rumour of course.
UITA very interesting article. Sadly it makes us look like a complete bunch of aviation buffoons. Hopefully the article will do a follow up report on our inept Minister presiding over all this manure. Pity they didn't dig up a photo of the Skull in his Friday Hawaiian shirt along with veins popping out of his forehead! Then again, the reporter may want to interview the Voodoo Doc instead and listen to hours of PhD littered waffle and folly. The kind of interview that would have a reporter wishing he was interviewing something more interesting like a pot plant!
Sarcs, good to see Casey continuing the fine fight. People like herself and Shane Urquhart are absolute troopers, not to mention they are the victims at the coalface of these issues. They deserve our continued robust support.
So this leads us into today's 'chocolate frog' award. Drumroll please...... yep, Karen Casey and the NY reporter. Congratulations!
Of course there is always a loser, and 'he who shall not be named' and the ATSB once again receive the 'chocolate starfish award' for appearing in print in NY and bringing Australian aviation into further disrepute.
Kharon, glad you fixed the houseboat engine. Be a good sport old chap, you have a special request so could you please park the Styx Houseboat along Shultz Canal Brisbane Airport. Could be a couple of passengers to be picked up from that 3 story ergonomic government building.
Don't worry, I will look after Minnie and Gobbles. There's a good chap..
'Safe skies are not the ones mentioned in the NY article'
That's What She Said, the rumour on the street is that 'the Hooded ones' position will go to one of CASA's purported bald bullyboys, Herr Campbell, or to the former SSS who is now JQ's Safety Manager. All scurrilous rumour of course.
UITA very interesting article. Sadly it makes us look like a complete bunch of aviation buffoons. Hopefully the article will do a follow up report on our inept Minister presiding over all this manure. Pity they didn't dig up a photo of the Skull in his Friday Hawaiian shirt along with veins popping out of his forehead! Then again, the reporter may want to interview the Voodoo Doc instead and listen to hours of PhD littered waffle and folly. The kind of interview that would have a reporter wishing he was interviewing something more interesting like a pot plant!
Sarcs, good to see Casey continuing the fine fight. People like herself and Shane Urquhart are absolute troopers, not to mention they are the victims at the coalface of these issues. They deserve our continued robust support.
So this leads us into today's 'chocolate frog' award. Drumroll please...... yep, Karen Casey and the NY reporter. Congratulations!
Of course there is always a loser, and 'he who shall not be named' and the ATSB once again receive the 'chocolate starfish award' for appearing in print in NY and bringing Australian aviation into further disrepute.
Kharon, glad you fixed the houseboat engine. Be a good sport old chap, you have a special request so could you please park the Styx Houseboat along Shultz Canal Brisbane Airport. Could be a couple of passengers to be picked up from that 3 story ergonomic government building.
Don't worry, I will look after Minnie and Gobbles. There's a good chap..
'Safe skies are not the ones mentioned in the NY article'
Last edited by my oleo is extended; 8th Mar 2013 at 05:05. Reason: Trending data - Acquired evidence that many of CASA's senior people are bald, or very very senior
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I'm genuinely interested to hear who fellow PPruners believe may add value to the CASA ranks and make headway in positioning the organisation as an industry stakeholder that commands respect.
Let me think though??????
How about Greg Vaughan, Bob Jarvis, Russ Evans, McArthur Job.
Sorry, but beyond that, Colonel Clink comes to mind and I get this watery look that tells me I'm speaking to the deaf.
Yes I've lost them, talking to myself again.
Last edited by Frank Arouet; 8th Mar 2013 at 04:59. Reason: Double checking for most recent trending data.
Lookleft, blah blah and blah. This is a rumour network, don't come on here asking questions of others. Some have graciously answered your question, so you are fortunate, I am sure many others will ignore you or PM you a reply which sounds similar to 'get stuffed'.
If the the answer to both is no then all you are doing is blowing smoke up your own backside by posting a constant stream of cryptic waffle pretending to be more important than you really are.
So Oleo your answer is no and no. You should give up smoking because it makes one angry and egotistical and no-one is going to accept that it is a new form of prostate examination. A fool I may be but a syncophant I am not.
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Beyond reason?
I was on a very outdated human factors course recently!
They taught us that go beyond the 'who' to the 'why'.
Who only = blame culture
Who + why = just culture
They were still talking about James Reason too!
I think the course was two Tim tams short of a packet.
They taught us that go beyond the 'who' to the 'why'.
Who only = blame culture
Who + why = just culture
They were still talking about James Reason too!
I think the course was two Tim tams short of a packet.
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HF vs BS?
Halfmanhalftimtam,
You need to sit on one of Ben Cooks HF courses, delivered proffesionally, succinctly and without any sprinklings of FF pony poo.
If Tony Kern is in town his courses are second to none. Check out Darker Shades Of Blue, a book about 'Lookleft'!
There are one or two other good course deliverers out there but there are also a few shonky salesmen type course providers as well so it pays to sift through the chaff, or to find the quality pot plant in the middle of the garden nursery, so to speak.
You need to sit on one of Ben Cooks HF courses, delivered proffesionally, succinctly and without any sprinklings of FF pony poo.
If Tony Kern is in town his courses are second to none. Check out Darker Shades Of Blue, a book about 'Lookleft'!
There are one or two other good course deliverers out there but there are also a few shonky salesmen type course providers as well so it pays to sift through the chaff, or to find the quality pot plant in the middle of the garden nursery, so to speak.
Last edited by my oleo is extended; 8th Mar 2013 at 09:14.
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Frank, interesting list. You forgot M. Quinn!!
Portside.
syncophant
Do you do deliveries by any chance?
Last edited by Frank Arouet; 8th Mar 2013 at 08:30. Reason: Pepperoni with mushrooms if possible.