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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

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Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

Old 25th Feb 2013, 18:35
  #1141 (permalink)  
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The 400 submissions from industry....
I was wondering how many. Is this public knowledge or superstition?
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 19:04
  #1142 (permalink)  
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A dollar saved.

Save your dollar DB, 'he who will not be shamed' has been irrelevant for a long while; even more so now, contract almost over, department lost in a sea of pain and the Golden West Mafia circling the roaring, dying beast, waiting a chance.

HMHB # 1135 "I think they need to ask about oversight of other companies now from the same period to now".
I hear there is substantive evidence already in safe hands related not only to Lockhart, but a couple of other dubious, worthless actions managed by ? – Ayup; our old mate Wodger which will bear no scrutiny, whatsoever. Of course, dear wodger (the one with the bwown nose Sarcs) will claim his worthless assistant fed him pony pooh and he; the 'unqualified', was left to rely on the 'expertise' of a reject from the pencil sharpening cupboard. Passing strange and unfortunate that; considering other more qualified advice and reason was ignored and the worthless one triumphed. Sad to watch a couple of honest rabbits trade their souls for a rice bowl. Hmm, maybe I'll get Minnie to 'Google' the story, see what we can find in the way of fact. Oh well, we shall see as we drill down through the surface; we do get all kinds of yarns spun down here.

The GWM seem to have a problem or three now; the carefully planned chess moves need to be rethought, in a hurry. Don't forget there is some pretty fierce infighting and bitter tribal disputes, long memories and sharp knives, struggling to avoid the spotlight. But, we do get all kinds of yarns spun down here.

Love to have been a fly on the wall (man at the back of the room) at the 'in camera' last night. Now this is only an unsubstantiated rumour, just a whisper from a fellah I met in a pub. Supposedly, Nick X has a Holy hand grenade and intends to use it, soon. The results are expected to be ugly, in the extreme. But then we get all kinds of yarns spun down here; we shall, as always await the results.

Last edited by Kharon; 25th Feb 2013 at 19:27.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 19:47
  #1143 (permalink)  
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Dogtree, suggest you follow PAIN's posts in this thread, the answers to your last post are out there.

I'm looking forward to the day Nick 'lobbiths thy holy hand grenade' into the Rabit warren'! I just hope he follows the steps outlined in thy holy SPM!
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 21:10
  #1144 (permalink)  
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And Kharon, I believe the GWM are working overtime trying to hatch a few new Chess moves, as you point out.
Certainly could now be a case of 'Who Fwamed Woger Wabbit'.
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Old 25th Feb 2013, 21:24
  #1145 (permalink)  
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Regulatory compliance - capital R.

Regulation or policy - that is the question.
Of course, as you can see, even using the -
– is fraught with regulatory peril and compliance policy. Bloody good cure for vermin in the back yard though.

What, already? - Heigh ho: whoop it up them engines son, they're not ours.

Last edited by Kharon; 25th Feb 2013 at 21:25.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 19:24
  #1146 (permalink)  
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Plans for Thursday's hearing

Just wondering what people are planning.

Tea and biccies

Beer and popcorn


Coffee and donuts

For watching the hearing.

Anyone taking bets for 1st question on notice.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 20:00
  #1147 (permalink)  
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Biccy looks like it will be beer'n'nuts....

*1128 Chair of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee (Senator Heffernan): To move—That the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee be authorised to hold a public meeting during the sitting of the Senate on Thursday, 28 February 2013, from 4 pm, to take evidence for the committee’s inquiry into an aviation accident investigation.

Although there is no mention of who is on the Colosseum weekly lion feeding list yet
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:01
  #1148 (permalink)  
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Halfmanhalfpeanutwafer, forget tea and biccies, I will be sitting by with a juicy sharpened pineapple!
As for what the first question may be, that is speculative, but hopefully Senator Heff will go straight for the jugular. Then again he may expand on Sen Nash's line of pot plant questioning? Or perhaps a robust line of questioning aimed at 'he who does not speak at the Senate' in relation to that lemon of a program 'Sky Sentinel'? No doubt there may be more questions in relation to, may I say, the Chamber pot report? Or perhaps Sen Heff will go a little easier on the FF pensioners, after all they must be getting somewhat tired, sore feet and hips, getting a bit shaky and in need of an injection of energy by way of a multi vitamin, and don't forget the arthritis cream boys!

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 26th Feb 2013 at 21:07.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:06
  #1149 (permalink)  
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Anyone have any idea of the number of lawyers employed by CASA these days compared with pre 1980?
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:21
  #1150 (permalink)  
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Anyone have any idea of the number of lawyers employed by CASA these days compared with pre 1980?
Don't think I've got that many fingers & toes. And I suspect there is a fair bit of paid external advice too.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:30
  #1151 (permalink)  
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The bucket of taxpayer money is endless, however many lawyers they need they get!
But perhaps Flyingfiend could provide the exact numbers of permanent legal staff as well as contracted legal staff along with a cost breakdown?
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 21:31
  #1152 (permalink)  
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While we are waiting -

Rumour has it that "Pete", the self funded bad boy pot plant will no longer continue his lonely existence. CASA in an attempt to deflect the Senator will donate a plant from their shrubbery, an agnostic, robust type, to show their deep understanding of the problem, it will be delivered in a white paper wrapping. At least that will be of some value to someone, somewhere; unlike the latest trite offering of a "Fatigue Management Guide" (or someting) published recently, just a little too late. Oh, the audience will love that. Hard to call tomorrow's session without a batting list, but you may predict, with some accuracy the audience response to both the rhetorical and tautological answers.

NOTAM. - Those attending tomorrow's BRB – BBQ ; in formal dress, fluffy rabbit ears or bunny slippers are acceptable. No pom pom tails will be allowed (there was a brawl last time).

Last edited by Kharon; 26th Feb 2013 at 23:19.
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Old 26th Feb 2013, 23:22
  #1153 (permalink)  
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Yawn boring UITA...and tomorrow's hearing boring? or grilling?
Inquiry into the Aviation Accident Investigations

Public hearing - Canberra, Thursday 28 February 2013

Committee Room 2S3
Parliament House
Sub No.
4.00 pm
Australian Transport Safety Bureau
Mr Martin Dolan, Chief Commissioner
Mr Ian Sangston, General Manager Aviation Safety Investigations
6:00 pm
You like that UITA..there's some bold and big words in that lot...
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 00:05
  #1154 (permalink)  
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re UITA post

as in Chess game..

I see these Legal? folk are with the CASA Law FIRM....Mmmmmmm..!!

Don't think I'd go there looking for any cogent advice, judging by the sh*t they cobbled up in their attempted prosecution.

Mind you they do have the odd original idea,... like denying a doc under FOI because its a 'CASA internal document' (sic)

I see the Screamer has cottoned onto that one in the Senate Hearing.
He just keeps beating that drum... internal doc, internal doc.!

The Combined Australian. Sewerage Association just keeps bubbling away.!
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 02:21
  #1155 (permalink)  
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Muppets on stage Thursday

The Beaker and Deputy Beaker will be getting briefed today on some of tomorrows questions and likely scope of inquiry.

I can see Head Beaker now, lips quivering, eyes bulging, mi mi mi mi-ing at the Senators non tautological questions. It should be a robust afternoon session because Sen Heff tends to get more grumpy during the later sessions, I like that.
I hope none of the Senators pose hypothetical questions about 'mid airs' as this will confuse the Beaker. Then again, Sangers and Sith Mrdak will be there with bits of script and notes for him, a type of prompt card system.

Do the Senators have some surprises in store for those taking the stage? Any bets on surprise questions?
Will the Senators review the list of questions on notice and seek full explanation and updates from Team Beaker? Any bets on how many questions Team Beaker will take on notice?
Will the Beaker be able to explain why his men have lost complete and utter faith and confidence in him?
Will the Beaker finally fall on his sword and take another bureaucratic spin role in some non-descript department where he can dutifully ply his trade massaging and polishing somebody else's 'facts'? Not likely, yet, but here is hoping !

And finally, should the Beaker finally concede to how incapable he is and 'exit stage left', would the government bring in a more suitable ATSB Chief who has experience in transparent investigations, who has experience in investigation techniques, methodology and searching for improved safety outcomes that benefit everybody? Would the government hire an astute leader who has the ability to gain a measure of respect both at home and internationally? Would the Government be content to mitigate this palpable situation by hiring somebody who can accurately rank and classify an investigation at the correct level and not fudge the figures? Would the Government appoint a non political contender for the role, say consider somebody such as Mr Alan Stray perhaps??

Last edited by my oleo is extended; 27th Feb 2013 at 02:26. Reason: Spotted Miss Piggy at a trough!
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 02:39
  #1156 (permalink)  
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Near miss DN?...err beg your pardon!

Note: Slightly off topic but Ben doesn't miss an opportunity to stick another literal pineapple in...
Darwin inquiry into near miss by two jet airliners updated | Plane Talking

Ben’s article is interesting in light of Heff’s question to ATSBeaker at the Senate Estimates 12/02/2013. Here’s an excerpt from the Hansard…

“…Senator HEFFERNAN: You may have already managed this issue, but on 2 October a Qantas jet came within 250 metres of a mid-air collision.

Mr Dolan: I am sorry?

Senator HEFFERNAN: A near miss at Darwin on 2 October 2012.

Mr Dolan: We have a number of matters under investigation.

Senator HEFFERNAN: Where are we up to with that particular one?

Mr Dolan: Mr Sangston is currently working his way through the list of investigations and to get those details for you.

Senator HEFFERNAN: I appreciate that. Is my understanding correct that there will be a Defence investigation into it?

Mr Dolan: There is an investigation that we are doing into a loss of separation in Darwin involving Defence controllers. We are doing our normal no-blame investigation because it involved civilian aircraft. It is possible that, given that they were Defence air traffic controllers, the Defence Force would have made its own inquiries into that, but that is a separate issue from any inquiries we undertake. We initiated the investigation on 3 October and we are aiming for that going to the public early in the third quarter of the current year…..”

“…Senator HEFFERNAN: At the some point in the future—and I will not burden you further today—it might be appropriate for this committee to have a briefing of some sort.

Mr Dolan: I could say one thing which is relevant. We are also completing—we hope by May—a general assessment of loss or separation incidents and whether there are any underlying safety issues. That is part of our overall review of these matters, so we are keeping a close eye on it…..”

Perhaps the Heff’s questioning on the Darwin near miss has triggered some action from the ATSBeaker.

Although in reference to Heff’s briefing it would appear the Senate committee may be waiting a while.

Quotes from Ben’s piece, which also brings the thread back on track with a crack by Ben at the current outstanding revelations in the AAI inquiry:

From ATSB report: “The ATSB aims to finalise this investigation in October 2013.”

From Ben’s blog: “These are important questions and October this year is a long time to wait for answers.

Despite its post Pel-Air aversion to making safety findings and recommendations, it is hoped that the ATSB gets over that disgraceful abrogation of its obligations and gets on with its real job, which is not protecting CASA from embarrassing diclosures.”
Keep up the heat Ben!
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 04:55
  #1157 (permalink)  
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(Groan) - Not the ATSB, again!

I would dearly like for someone representing the once glorious ATSB to sit up straight, look at the panel and answer the questions in a straight forward manner; the way some of the best investigators do at Coronial hearings and other important events. I have seen some of the 'gooduns' take some real heat from barristers and the like. Truth – self evident; expertise – shining through; common sense answers – crystal clear. Why can't they do the same now?, or better still, move over and let someone who dares, or who knows what they are about answer the bloody questions.

Why is there always a long delay in providing critical safety information to the public; is the system being played 'fast and loose' to suit a preordained purpose?

Why does it appear there are so many apparent breaches of the TSI Act; is the system being played 'fast and loose' to suit a preordained purpose?

Why does it appear that confidentiality is breached on a regular basis; is the system being played 'fast and loose' to suit a preordained purpose?

Why is there an industry wide perception that the FOI Act is being played 'fast and loose' to suit a preordained purpose?

Why are reasonable doubts and questions from senior, experienced ATSB people ignored and why are their written objections kept silent; is the system being played 'fast and loose' to suit a preordained purpose?

Why are the ATSB perceived as a well trained lap dog to the CASA master race, where's your pride?; is the system being played 'fast and loose' to suit a preordained purpose?

If there is nothing to hide, wheel in your top boys and let them tell the truth. An international disgrace since Lockhart and all they can do is sit in front of the Parliament, squirming, spinning and saying Reason is 'old hat'.

Sit up straight man, face the questions and try to find a probity pit stop along the road perdition.

We are all in business of avoiding repetitive accidents, we are in the business of accident prevention. We are part of the safety business – where, in all the hells are you???

There now; I feel better – but I doubt I can stomach another two hours like the last sessions; sheeit, I'd rather watch My Kitchen Rules or even bloody Downtown Abbey FCS.

Argh! - Steam off.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 06:52
  #1158 (permalink)  
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Hear! hear! Mr Kharon perhaps it's time for a REALITY CHECK for our mi..mi...mi..Mr ATSBeaker and his apparently extremely gullible 2IC....

Reality Check (do you like that UITA??)...from Urquhart submission:
When will truth trump cover-ups that are laced with selfish intent to save ones posterior? How ridiculous to have so many broken rules in an- audit, yet almost get away with it. There is a reason for the truth that is emerging, it’s for air safety & the failure of our regulator & investigative bodies results. It has been the survivors that have been the seekers of the real deal. What a disgrace. With both our Chief Commissioners under the microscope now, the amplification of this ordeal is finally happening.
CASA & ATSB have a lot to answer for, dragging this on for selfish intent is criminal & at the least cruel to all on board. The coverup is surfacing and all will be revealed about the incompetencies of all parties involved.

How unprofessional this has all been. How disappointing in the treatment of the people who have experienced hell from impact till now with our own government bodies involved. Does our government have enough integrity to investigate the individuals involved and actually DO something about this rather than just go around in circles. To add insult, let’s just throw in the fact that the ex-Pel-Air chief pilot at the time of the incident now works as an investigator for CASA…please!
Just stop the B.S & tell the truth.” (again for you UITA)
Posted on Crikey Nov 04 2012.
Reality Check over...off for a cold shower

Get the hint Beaker harden up man and just tell the bloody truth!!

Last edited by Sarcs; 27th Feb 2013 at 06:55.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 10:36
  #1159 (permalink)  
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Mr Urquharts words are touching. This is the human side to all this mess. A man who lost his daughter...

How would the executive people in these bureaucracies like to receive 'that' phone call or knock on the door that Mr Urquhart received?
How would the executives in these bureaucracies like to identify their daughters remains in a morgue?
How would these executives like to spend birthdays, Christmas, special occasions without the sounds, sight and smell of their loved ones?
How would the executives in these bureacracies like to then get slapped over and over by injustice, lies, deceit and denial?

One thing is for certain, and this message goes to these executive types sitting on their gold layered thrones - You reap what you sew. You may have built for yourself an untouchable fortress in your careers in this life but a world in hell awaits you. You are only a temporary number in this world and your clock is ticking. So enjoy it now.
Everybody pays the Ferryman.....Everybody.
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Old 27th Feb 2013, 16:19
  #1160 (permalink)  
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When you read closely the submission from Mr Shane Urquhart and the others that are in there because they want and need to be heard, in their grief and frustration, you cannot but feel the profoundest sympathy, but moreover the realisation that nobody, but nobody, can ever really know the depth and nature of the enduring pain and suffering if he or she has not been there.

The worthies who are now applying their insight and acumen to contribute to the protracted process of working towards redress, reform and overhaul of badly flawed institutions and the exposure of the derelict in their duty, deserve the praise and support of all those interested parties who sit on the sidelines, if not the wider community.

As is so often noted, without the world wide web and all the forums there,
the knowledge and examination of crucial matters (and access to them) would be a fraction of what it is; something to be extremely grateful for.
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