Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011
wits.
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A Staib in the dark? Epic fail. No pony pooh allowed zone.
Frau Staib,
Perhaps she was drawing lines in the air whilst off flying with the fairies in cloud cuckoo land?
'The' CHAIR,
Very good work sir. It is always refreshing to see a bureaucrat, in this case Staib, shot down as the spin deflecting waffle was about to be unleashed towards the Senators! Aagh yes, these Senators aint nobody's fool by the sounds of things so far. It is obvious that these pony pooh sprouting bureaucrats appearing before the senate have underestimated the Senators intellect by a thousand nautical miles.
As has been mentioned repetitively, or tautologically as Chief Angry Man Skull would say, the ASA, ATSB and CASA have all failed dismally, woefully and internationally under the direction of executives, boards, Ministers and the like who have next to zero experience in real life matters and instead have made careers talking ****e and spinning and evading fact and truth. They are all dross and just as with a good bowel movement they need to be expunged immediately.
Not in the way that this particular incident was handled. What it has brought out in my mind—appearing here before you—is that there is room for improvement in managing the cross-boundary areas of the different jurisdictions, because inevitably it is very difficult to see the line drawn on a map in the air.
'The' CHAIR,
Like Senator Fawcett said: 'Don't look over the boundary. You mightn't like what you see.' For God's sake, why wouldn't you have been up CASA and up ATSB and up everyone else, like I intend to be, over this? It is obviously a flaw and obviously bureaucracies tend to protect themselves and put up a shell—'Don't ask, don't tell. That wasn't our responsibility' and 'Don't look over the fence.' For God's sake, what is going on?
As has been mentioned repetitively, or tautologically as Chief Angry Man Skull would say, the ASA, ATSB and CASA have all failed dismally, woefully and internationally under the direction of executives, boards, Ministers and the like who have next to zero experience in real life matters and instead have made careers talking ****e and spinning and evading fact and truth. They are all dross and just as with a good bowel movement they need to be expunged immediately.
Last edited by gobbledock; 19th Nov 2012 at 10:43.
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GD, your posts, and others, would be better if you didn't try and talk like Tonto or use acronyms without explaining what they mean or endlessly going on about pony poo when you mean lies and half truths.
If you have some hope that persons other than paranoid obsessives might try and follow what is going on, you might try to make it easier for them to read.
To put that another way when some one writes: " I nailed that CASA FOI when the OLS tripped on CAR 206 (1.a) and I hit hit him with the difference between RVSM and the NPR Thronomister approach and Senator Fawcett agreed." journalists eyes glaze over and they go looking for something else easier to write - like an explanation of the theory of relativity for housewives.
FFS try and keep it simple and understandable to the average idiot like me if you want publicity of the state of affairs.
Furthermore, Stalb is new in the job and is entitled to some leeway. she wasn't in the chair when this happened anyway.
If you have some hope that persons other than paranoid obsessives might try and follow what is going on, you might try to make it easier for them to read.
To put that another way when some one writes: " I nailed that CASA FOI when the OLS tripped on CAR 206 (1.a) and I hit hit him with the difference between RVSM and the NPR Thronomister approach and Senator Fawcett agreed." journalists eyes glaze over and they go looking for something else easier to write - like an explanation of the theory of relativity for housewives.
FFS try and keep it simple and understandable to the average idiot like me if you want publicity of the state of affairs.
Furthermore, Stalb is new in the job and is entitled to some leeway. she wasn't in the chair when this happened anyway.
Last edited by Sunfish; 19th Nov 2012 at 11:00.
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Sorry Sunfish,
I say it the way I see it - warts, pooh and all. Not all my comments or acronyms will be understood by all, so be it. Some do understand however.My advice would be to skip by my comments, or block me, your call.
Publicity? My little public ditties won't make one ounce of difference. It is what sits in the Senators hands that will. I live in a democracy (apparently) and am merely exercising my rights within the Westminster system.
Again, your thoughts, and that is fine.
She won't however get a gram of leeway from me. The Minister is yet to appoint a half decent asset to either ASA, CASA or the ATSB. The only candidates are long term bureaucrats with PHD's in spin, obfuscation, evasion and of course pooh. If you want to give her a chance well that is dandy, but she won't cut a break from me. I have seen this level of crap decade after decade, and I thought with your experience you would have seen it well and truly before also. I am following a basic principle of predictive rather than be reactive. And I can well and truly predict how effective Frau Staib will be. No amount of fancy stripes on any collar means jacks#it to me.
I say it the way I see it - warts, pooh and all. Not all my comments or acronyms will be understood by all, so be it. Some do understand however.My advice would be to skip by my comments, or block me, your call.
FFS try and keep it simple and understandable to the average idiot like me if you want publicity of the state of affairs.
Furthermore, Stalb is new in the job and is entitled to some leeway. she wasn't in the chair when this happened anyway.
She won't however get a gram of leeway from me. The Minister is yet to appoint a half decent asset to either ASA, CASA or the ATSB. The only candidates are long term bureaucrats with PHD's in spin, obfuscation, evasion and of course pooh. If you want to give her a chance well that is dandy, but she won't cut a break from me. I have seen this level of crap decade after decade, and I thought with your experience you would have seen it well and truly before also. I am following a basic principle of predictive rather than be reactive. And I can well and truly predict how effective Frau Staib will be. No amount of fancy stripes on any collar means jacks#it to me.
Last edited by gobbledock; 19th Nov 2012 at 11:11.
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I never thought I would say "I enjoyed reading Hansard today", but there you go.
Senator Heffernan To Harfield: "You are a joke". (page10) and
"CHAIR: How long have you been at Airservices?
Mr Harfield: Nearly 25 years.
CHAIR: I think you need a change of career." (page 17).
Gold.
Senator Heffernan To Harfield: "You are a joke". (page10) and
"CHAIR: How long have you been at Airservices?
Mr Harfield: Nearly 25 years.
CHAIR: I think you need a change of career." (page 17).
Gold.
Sunny no disrespect intended but last time I looked this is a professional pilot's forum.
Although gobbles has an extreme case of descriptive, colourful language that maybe sometimes be hard to follow there is no denying the simple message that he is conveying.
And it is one that you and many others on this site totally agree with i.e. the current numbnuts heading up Fort Fumble, ASA and the bureau no longer have the mandate of the industry. These incompetents are screwing over a once proud industry that is fast becoming the laughing stock of the civilized world.
If you need any further evidence of the crats attitude to the industry that is filling their troughs to brimming look no further than this:
This is why so many people in the industry feel so dis-enfranchised with the aviation safety authorities...and if you need an interpreter for gobbles passionate rants (which secretly we all love!) please PM me with a.."what was it he just said!"
Although gobbles has an extreme case of descriptive, colourful language that maybe sometimes be hard to follow there is no denying the simple message that he is conveying.
And it is one that you and many others on this site totally agree with i.e. the current numbnuts heading up Fort Fumble, ASA and the bureau no longer have the mandate of the industry. These incompetents are screwing over a once proud industry that is fast becoming the laughing stock of the civilized world.
If you need any further evidence of the crats attitude to the industry that is filling their troughs to brimming look no further than this:
John McCormick thanks staff.
Meanwhile, CASA Director John McCormick has thanked his staff for their input into the Senate process while also firing a vigorous shot across the bows at his organisation’s critics. We publish an extract because we’d hate to be labelled part of the “uninformed minority.”
We recently appeared at a sitting of the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Reference’s Committee Inquiry into the ‘PEL-AIR’ ditching report and ‘other matters’. I wish to pass on my personal thanks for the outstanding effort everyone made to meet the requests of the Senate Committee inquiring into the PEL-AIR ditching report. I fully appreciate the time and effort that was required and on behalf of everyone else at CASA, thank you and well done! That sort of spirit is very humbling to me.
As for these Inquiries themselves, they are an important part of Westminster Democracy in this country and, as such, are not events to be feared or avoided. I personally welcome the opportunity to present CASA’s positions at any venue.
However, do not be dismayed by our vocal but largely uninformed minority of critics; they are symptomatic of other ills in society. I prefer ‘facts’ when engaged in discussions; not hearsay and tautological rubbish that some others seem to regard as promising material.
I look forward to assisting the Committee conclude its investigations. At the completion of this Inquiry there is a report produced. That report becomes a ‘Report of Parliament’ and will be forwarded, by established process, to the Minister for his consideration.
Meanwhile, CASA Director John McCormick has thanked his staff for their input into the Senate process while also firing a vigorous shot across the bows at his organisation’s critics. We publish an extract because we’d hate to be labelled part of the “uninformed minority.”
We recently appeared at a sitting of the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Reference’s Committee Inquiry into the ‘PEL-AIR’ ditching report and ‘other matters’. I wish to pass on my personal thanks for the outstanding effort everyone made to meet the requests of the Senate Committee inquiring into the PEL-AIR ditching report. I fully appreciate the time and effort that was required and on behalf of everyone else at CASA, thank you and well done! That sort of spirit is very humbling to me.
As for these Inquiries themselves, they are an important part of Westminster Democracy in this country and, as such, are not events to be feared or avoided. I personally welcome the opportunity to present CASA’s positions at any venue.
However, do not be dismayed by our vocal but largely uninformed minority of critics; they are symptomatic of other ills in society. I prefer ‘facts’ when engaged in discussions; not hearsay and tautological rubbish that some others seem to regard as promising material.
I look forward to assisting the Committee conclude its investigations. At the completion of this Inquiry there is a report produced. That report becomes a ‘Report of Parliament’ and will be forwarded, by established process, to the Minister for his consideration.
Sarcs:
Talking about pony poo and in fake American Indian? Professional? It's not a good look.
THe regulator doesn't look good either, to the point where if I had known what a can of worms the regulations were, I would never have bothered learning to fly.
Here is a hint for CASA, why not hire a PR firm and do some charity stuff for kids, maybe smiling CASA FOI rescues a cat from tree..............
Sunny no disrespect intended but last time I looked this is a professional pilot's forum.
THe regulator doesn't look good either, to the point where if I had known what a can of worms the regulations were, I would never have bothered learning to fly.
Here is a hint for CASA, why not hire a PR firm and do some charity stuff for kids, maybe smiling CASA FOI rescues a cat from tree..............
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Intertextuality
"I prefer ‘facts’ when engaged in discussions; not hearsay and tautological rubbish that some others seem to regard as promising material".
Will it be the facts from the deluded, misguided, social miscreants that spoil the Montréal sojourn? Will the delusional ICAO believe the 'facts' presented in Hansard? Will the 'facts and circumstances' CASA style withstand the scrutiny of expert ICAO analysis? Does the scourge of the 49'ers care?
That report becomes a ‘Report of Parliament’ and will be forwarded, by established process, to the Minister for his consideration".
Perhaps this journey to Canada is to allow time for the willing accomplices to get their resignations in, before the axe falls; perhaps not. I hope not, there's nothing I like better than roast pork for Christmas.
Last edited by Kharon; 19th Nov 2012 at 18:56.
[D]o not be dismayed by our vocal but largely uninformed minority of critics; they are symptomatic of other ills in society. I prefer ‘facts’ when engaged in discussions; not hearsay and tautological rubbish that some others seem to regard as promising material.
And BTW: Most of CASA’s evidence to the Committee is merely opinion and hearsay. Nothing wrong with that, mind you. But CASA might remind itself about that Pot/Kettle metaphor.
And CASA might also need to remind itself that it is also answerable not just to the Minister but to Parliament. The only person I can recall who went into a Senate hearing with a higher cockpit gradient was Kerry Packer.
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Errrrm, Senator Heffernan is the Chair of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee. (Senator Sterle is the Deputy Chair. Those positions are reversed in the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee.)
I agree that Senator Heffernan does get a bit flamboyant and tiring.
However, the climate of this inquiry is substantially different from other inquiries in which he is involved. In this one he is far from being alone in his disbelief of, and occasional open contempt for, some of the witnesses to the inquiry. During this inquiry there have been occasions on which the entirety of the Committee has openly scoffed in disbelief at the evidence being given.
I agree that Senator Heffernan does get a bit flamboyant and tiring.
However, the climate of this inquiry is substantially different from other inquiries in which he is involved. In this one he is far from being alone in his disbelief of, and occasional open contempt for, some of the witnesses to the inquiry. During this inquiry there have been occasions on which the entirety of the Committee has openly scoffed in disbelief at the evidence being given.
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Outstripped on points by that buffoon Albanese who honestly believes everything the "secret society" tell him. He should investigate "the handshake" as should Heffernan.
As I've repeatedly said, either Prime Minister and Cabinet Department folk do over CASA or wait for three smoking holes and a Royal Commission to do it the hard way.
My guess is that the easiest way for PM & C to nobble CASA would be to outsource their legal services and put an intermediary in there who has to be satisfied that the legal/regulatory action meets the model litigant requirements as well as being cost effective, necessary, procedural fairness, natural justice, etc., etc., etc.
If I can find the time in the next few months I might try and find out who knows who is doing what in the public service these days, but I expect Heffernan and Co. already know.
I still fondly remember Robin Hocking (RIP) whose scholarly economic work triggered the debate over and the eventual ending of the Two airline policy.
My guess is that the easiest way for PM & C to nobble CASA would be to outsource their legal services and put an intermediary in there who has to be satisfied that the legal/regulatory action meets the model litigant requirements as well as being cost effective, necessary, procedural fairness, natural justice, etc., etc., etc.
If I can find the time in the next few months I might try and find out who knows who is doing what in the public service these days, but I expect Heffernan and Co. already know.
I still fondly remember Robin Hocking (RIP) whose scholarly economic work triggered the debate over and the eventual ending of the Two airline policy.
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I expect Heffernan and Co. already know.
You are right.
It's hard not to be cynical of the process and result and I wish I weren't.
It's for the public consumption that we have a senate hearing. They're acting their parts out well and despite any executives being brought undone or shortcomings exposed, nothing substantial will be done.
We'll wait for the "smoking holes" Sunfish, and hop each time I fly between now and then that I'm not in one of them.
Last edited by AEROMEDIC; 20th Nov 2012 at 08:39.
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CHAIR: So, in the meantime, if it happens again, that is too bad? What a joke. You are a joke. Back to you, Senator Xenophon.
Mmmmmm... so this is how to conduct yourself as the chair of a Senate Hearing
Mmmmmm... so this is how to conduct yourself as the chair of a Senate Hearing
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NZ Airspace?
Creamy,
One for an incisive mind...
Mr Hobson tells Senator X that the airspace over Norfolk Island belongs to NZ and that there is no Australian airspace there. But I remember that the Chicago Convention embodies a fundamental principle:
So I wonder how this is managed? 
Given that the aviation law that applies to operations at Norfolk (Lord Howe, Christmas and Cocos) Island is undeniably Australian rather than that of the managing agency of the Oceanic Airspace, it seems likely that there is indeed some form of international agreement that deals with the transition of applicable law between Australia and, in this case, NZ.
Anyone know which government agency would negotiate and act as custodian of such an agreement? Apparently it is not Airservices!
Stay Alive,
One for an incisive mind...
Mr Hobson tells Senator X that the airspace over Norfolk Island belongs to NZ and that there is no Australian airspace there. But I remember that the Chicago Convention embodies a fundamental principle:
PART I.—AIR NAVIGATION
CHAPTER I.—GENERAL PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION OF THE CONVENTION.
Article 1.
Sovereignty.
The contracting States recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory.
Article 2.
Territory.
For the purposes of this Convention the territory of a State shall be deemed to be the land areas and territorial waters adjacent thereto under the sovereignty, suzerainty, protection or mandate of such State.
CHAPTER I.—GENERAL PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION OF THE CONVENTION.
Article 1.
Sovereignty.
The contracting States recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory.
Article 2.
Territory.
For the purposes of this Convention the territory of a State shall be deemed to be the land areas and territorial waters adjacent thereto under the sovereignty, suzerainty, protection or mandate of such State.
Given that the aviation law that applies to operations at Norfolk (Lord Howe, Christmas and Cocos) Island is undeniably Australian rather than that of the managing agency of the Oceanic Airspace, it seems likely that there is indeed some form of international agreement that deals with the transition of applicable law between Australia and, in this case, NZ.
Anyone know which government agency would negotiate and act as custodian of such an agreement? Apparently it is not Airservices!
Stay Alive,
Last edited by 4dogs; 20th Nov 2012 at 07:51.