Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011
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That's kind of like a hitman who buys the ammunition, drives to the murder scene, loads his gun, waits 4 hours for the victim to arrive, shoots him in the head and then pleads it was only manslaughter because he only decided to pull the trigger in the last 10 seconds.
Yes they misled parliament - every man, woman and their canine companions can see that as clear as day. But to prove perjury legally? How can you prove when an individual made a final decision?
I hope the good Sen X can find a way to make these arrogant serial deceivers face due justice.
Last edited by HF3000; 2nd Jun 2012 at 14:47.
Catholics are taught about hair splitting as children - and I assume Alan Joyce grew up in Iorland in that tradition.
I learned it in a one week live in course on neurolinguistics - it's termed "framing".
In Alan Joyce world, it is perfectly all right to organise printing, couriers, manager travel and all the other minutiae assocaited with the grounding provided one says to said managers: "I want you to this and this and this and be ready on such and such a date at 5.00am to do that and that and that, in case I tell you on that date that I am grounding the airline."
I can now truthfully say I have not made the decision, and no lie detector or forensic lawyer can prove otherwise.
Of course the truth is that I made a decision to make a decision weeks ago, but you need to understand neurolinguistics or theology to rumble the little prick.
With management and a Board that cannot be trusted by its staff, suppliers or its customers, Qantas is ultimately doomed. I don't think we have very long to wait, judging by what happened to the American sharemarket and gold price on Friday night.
I learned it in a one week live in course on neurolinguistics - it's termed "framing".
In Alan Joyce world, it is perfectly all right to organise printing, couriers, manager travel and all the other minutiae assocaited with the grounding provided one says to said managers: "I want you to this and this and this and be ready on such and such a date at 5.00am to do that and that and that, in case I tell you on that date that I am grounding the airline."
I can now truthfully say I have not made the decision, and no lie detector or forensic lawyer can prove otherwise.
Of course the truth is that I made a decision to make a decision weeks ago, but you need to understand neurolinguistics or theology to rumble the little prick.
With management and a Board that cannot be trusted by its staff, suppliers or its customers, Qantas is ultimately doomed. I don't think we have very long to wait, judging by what happened to the American sharemarket and gold price on Friday night.
Last edited by Sunfish; 2nd Jun 2012 at 20:08.
Might be hard to prove legally regarding the Senate, might be a easier case regarding not telling the AGM of something that was under active consideration that might materially affect the business.
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Same concept was adopted for the Heavy Maintenance closure. It goes something like this.
I told a group of managers that they would be sacked unless they make a decision to close the Melbourne Heavy Maintenance base. I told them that they were not to inform me of their decision until date xx/xx/xx. I needed that month to pretend we were consulting. The managers are still employed.
I told a group of managers that they would be sacked unless they make a decision to close the Melbourne Heavy Maintenance base. I told them that they were not to inform me of their decision until date xx/xx/xx. I needed that month to pretend we were consulting. The managers are still employed.
Last edited by ALAEA Fed Sec; 3rd Jun 2012 at 00:58.
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Qantas chief threatens union boss with legal action
Ewin Hannan
June 02, 2012 12:00AM
QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce is threatening to sue union leader Tony Sheldon over his claims the airline boss misled federal parliament about events leading up to the grounding of the company's fleet last year.
Lawyers for Mr Joyce wrote to Mr Sheldon yesterday, claiming that his comments, which were published in The Australian yesterday, were "unequivocally false and defamatory".
Mr Sheldon, the national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, had seized on recent evidence to Fair Work Australia by Qantas chief financial officer Gareth Evans, claiming the testimony contradicted evidence given by Mr Joyce to a parliamentary committee last November.
Mr Evans told the tribunal that the airline's executive committee had discussed the option of locking out the workforce "probably two weeks" before aircraft were grounded last October.
During the committee hearing, senator Nick Xenophon asked Mr Joyce about whether he had thought there was a prospect of grounding the fleet when he entered the company's annual meeting on the Friday before the grounding. Mr Joyce replied: "I did not. I did not have any view on the prospect of it." Mr Sheldon said the comments by Mr Evans "proved senior management deliberately and consistently misled the Australian community, the government and their workforce".
Ewin Hannan
June 02, 2012 12:00AM
QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce is threatening to sue union leader Tony Sheldon over his claims the airline boss misled federal parliament about events leading up to the grounding of the company's fleet last year.
Lawyers for Mr Joyce wrote to Mr Sheldon yesterday, claiming that his comments, which were published in The Australian yesterday, were "unequivocally false and defamatory".
Mr Sheldon, the national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, had seized on recent evidence to Fair Work Australia by Qantas chief financial officer Gareth Evans, claiming the testimony contradicted evidence given by Mr Joyce to a parliamentary committee last November.
Mr Evans told the tribunal that the airline's executive committee had discussed the option of locking out the workforce "probably two weeks" before aircraft were grounded last October.
During the committee hearing, senator Nick Xenophon asked Mr Joyce about whether he had thought there was a prospect of grounding the fleet when he entered the company's annual meeting on the Friday before the grounding. Mr Joyce replied: "I did not. I did not have any view on the prospect of it." Mr Sheldon said the comments by Mr Evans "proved senior management deliberately and consistently misled the Australian community, the government and their workforce".
Interesting..
If Joyce takes Sheldon to court there are two possibilities
1. Joyce wins. He gets bragging rights (I told you I had no plans, I have asbestos underwear) and maybe the issue is more easily closed.
2.Joyce loses. Then there is potentially more proven evidence at court level and perhaps a higher possibility of having a future finding that he did mislead parliament with all the higher level implications .
I think Joyce has much more to lose than win, and that his threat to sue Sheldon is an empty threat.
SB
If Joyce takes Sheldon to court there are two possibilities
1. Joyce wins. He gets bragging rights (I told you I had no plans, I have asbestos underwear) and maybe the issue is more easily closed.
2.Joyce loses. Then there is potentially more proven evidence at court level and perhaps a higher possibility of having a future finding that he did mislead parliament with all the higher level implications .
I think Joyce has much more to lose than win, and that his threat to sue Sheldon is an empty threat.
SB
Last edited by Seabreeze; 3rd Jun 2012 at 07:07.
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Whistleblowers
Reference to news of the world was made. Do people here remember that the original whistleblower on that is not around any more.....
Court great idea. Sadly its bloody hard to find people who are prepared to put their necks out far enough as is required to stand up to the bull going on around the world. Hence they are winning and workers are getting further up sh*^ creek without a paddle. And there can be dire consequences for having the courage of convictions....
Good people are talking here .
Court great idea. Sadly its bloody hard to find people who are prepared to put their necks out far enough as is required to stand up to the bull going on around the world. Hence they are winning and workers are getting further up sh*^ creek without a paddle. And there can be dire consequences for having the courage of convictions....
Good people are talking here .
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I'd be more worried that the whole world just read on a news media source that a "Qantas Dash 8" nearly stalled on approach to Mascot with a "pilot at the controls with only 26 hours in the plane".
Reading down further it states that the captain took control of the aircraft and that it indeed landed safely and was the subject of an ATSB investigation, but with news reporting like that making it into AIN, we look like we are heading down some safety path like the Congo!
Bad for everyone!
Surely an ATPL and a minimum of 500 hours multi should be bare minimum for a ATR/Dash 8 position.
Reading down further it states that the captain took control of the aircraft and that it indeed landed safely and was the subject of an ATSB investigation, but with news reporting like that making it into AIN, we look like we are heading down some safety path like the Congo!
Bad for everyone!
Surely an ATPL and a minimum of 500 hours multi should be bare minimum for a ATR/Dash 8 position.
Last edited by Kangaroo Court; 5th Jun 2012 at 14:01.
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Could the unions join together to pay some really good forensic accountants to investigate the claims the grounding was spur of the moment?
If such forensic accountants were used In places such as la where there are claims a couple of thousand hotel rooms were prebooked etc etc.
A lot of people in the states are very poorly paid . I can't imagine forensic investigators not finding plenty - worldwide . Hotel bus people and concierge staff hear everything , are really friendly , and most think rich corp s are pigs? Good idea I think anyway
Do all those little planes still carry life rafts ?
If such forensic accountants were used In places such as la where there are claims a couple of thousand hotel rooms were prebooked etc etc.
A lot of people in the states are very poorly paid . I can't imagine forensic investigators not finding plenty - worldwide . Hotel bus people and concierge staff hear everything , are really friendly , and most think rich corp s are pigs? Good idea I think anyway
Do all those little planes still carry life rafts ?
Last edited by catonahottinroof; 5th Jun 2012 at 23:06.
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A major CEO accusing a union rep of slander is a total joke.
I had a simple basic work cover stress injury claim . They friggin dragged it out for years and years. Over $500,000 in court costs plus some they had two QC s and I had one . Both are examples of corporat endemic systemic bullying . Culturally accepted my management in most areas of the company as a ligitiment way to deal with staff issues . It's disgusting . I will personally chip in for the union guys fees at any time
I had a simple basic work cover stress injury claim . They friggin dragged it out for years and years. Over $500,000 in court costs plus some they had two QC s and I had one . Both are examples of corporat endemic systemic bullying . Culturally accepted my management in most areas of the company as a ligitiment way to deal with staff issues . It's disgusting . I will personally chip in for the union guys fees at any time
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Joining dots to smoking holes.
Bing disclaimer - Below is a snapshot of the Web page as it appeared on 6/16/2012 (the last time our crawler visited it). This is the version of the page that was used for ranking your search results. The page may have changed since we last cached it. To see what might have changed (without the highlights).
Note – this article has been removed from the Crikey Blog – Plane Talking.
Note - Aviation Advertiser carries a similar article – J*Flap.
Note – this article has been removed from the Crikey Blog – Plane Talking.
Note - Aviation Advertiser carries a similar article – J*Flap.
The Senate has been contemptuously fobbed off with soft "white" paper.
The levels to which the CASA apparently happily descend to, in order to maintain the regulator with a capital R image in public view are clearly visible
The perceived willingness of the ATSB to be complicit in the scam being foisted on the public is apparent in the differences between Tiger and J* reports.
It appears there is no depths to which the Minister will nor descend to avoid responsibility for the pitiful, embarrassing mess called the Australian aviation industry.
Is the Senate happy to accept a seemingly defunct CASA, a glove puppet ATSB service, an ATC system which is coming apart at the seams, an industry in almost open rebellion and a public which cannot be kept in the dark for too much longer ?.
Seems everyone's arse is covered except the those of the travelling public, who sooner or later will ask those awkward questions which will have the vermin scampering into the dark, damp corners.
Time to join the dots ?, I believe it is.
Last edited by Kharon; 17th Jun 2012 at 22:57.
One major issue is that CASA is weak as piss. They have an inordinate amount of rules of regs that everyone has to follow only to then grant the big players exemptions to the same rules when it suits them. Either you have a set of regs that everyone follows or you don't.
It is time that CASA starts regulating and enforcing the ENTIRE industry not just pumping the GA operators.
A good example in recent times would be the ridiculous amount of engine failures QF had. If a small regional or a GA charter outfit had 10 engine failures in a couple of years CASA would be pulling the AOC.
It is time that CASA starts regulating and enforcing the ENTIRE industry not just pumping the GA operators.
A good example in recent times would be the ridiculous amount of engine failures QF had. If a small regional or a GA charter outfit had 10 engine failures in a couple of years CASA would be pulling the AOC.
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Correct Neville, but as you are quite well aware, the answers you seek are obvious, and as I posted on another thread, the double standards are staggering.
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The Empire strikes back
Background music by the imortal
Here is the response - Jetstar refutes.
Well, that's one ugly little incident tidied away, neatly with a pink ribbon; except.
Now let's see what else is piled up in the skeleton cupboard.
Here is the response - Jetstar refutes.
Well, that's one ugly little incident tidied away, neatly with a pink ribbon; except.
Now let's see what else is piled up in the skeleton cupboard.
Last edited by Kharon; 18th Jun 2012 at 00:42. Reason: Forgot the bloody link - thats why.