Senate Inquiry, Hearing Program 4th Nov 2011

[Sarcs]

Kharon:

These 'spin' people seem to assume everyone's a thick as they are. "OI, most here can read big words and do joined up writing and everything". The international shame of the Pel Air inquiry now compounded by platitudes and worse yet, these halfwits fully expect that everyone's going to swallow it. Bloody disgusting, hypocritical drivel. I'm off to fund anyone researching anti-vomit medication.....

The latest episode from mi..mi..mi..Beaker's blgacrat will be a good tester for that medication:
Blog - Reporting accidents and incidents?getting the facts straight
Talk about thick muppet fur..it's a bit like the Ginger Ninja who still doesn't realise that everyone has switched off and stopped listening..."hey barman she's on again can you hit the mute button or change the channel FFS?"

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

From the ATSB blog

I can appreciate that some operators may be reluctant to report an accident or incident to us because they’re concerned about the consequences of doing so. Let me be clear about this: the ATSB investigates accidents and incidents to find out what happened so it doesn’t happen again. We don’t investigate to lay blame.

Brilliant. Now prove it by doing a real investigation on Pel Air as recommended by the damning senate report.

This thread is now nudging 480,000 and sure it will make 500,000 pretty soon. I'm also sure human factors and safety professionals are taking an interest in Pel Air. I expect it to become a case study on courses soon.

[004wercras]

Beaker doing the time warp again?

Oh Beaker, you mean the ATSBeaker used to conduct investigations to find out what happened, before the organisation was 'Beakerised' and adapted its new 'beyond Reason' approach. Yes the old ATSBeaker is commensurate with your statement, not the current farce.
Unlike the Pel Air aircraft I believe you are 'beyond salvaging' and your organisation (the upper tier) under your Comcare approach are an embarrassment to the local and international aviation community. It is time for you to be shuffled away to where your true skill set and abilities lay - Comcare. Buckets of money to play with, move around, distribute, analyse, distribute etc, its like a giant Monopoly set, hours of fun for the grown up, and lets be honest it is what you do best!
But FFS, please, leave aviation alone.

Mi mi mi mi

[Kharon]

Beyond any reason.

No matter how I read the latest dribble from the ATSB, the same conclusion sneaks back to the front – they have no intention, whatsoever, of changing anything. They love the 'system' to bits and we can all just get used to the new, self serving format of accident report. The Senate and the 'ills of society' can go root their boots.

The stultifying complacency, mindless arrogance and breathtaking contempt these people have for ICAO, industry, government, law and due process beggars all belief. How are these people to be worked on??, is there nothing that can be done?

Resign Mr. Dolan – resign: hang your head in shame and take the incompetent ninnies hanging off your coat tails with you; away from the sight of honest, professional aviators.

Just go away. Selah.

Lady Macbeth:
Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!—One; two: why, then
'tis time to do't.—Hell is murky.—Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and
afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our
pow'r to accompt?—Yet who would have thought the old man to
have had so much blood in him?

[Sarcs]

ATSB beyond all sane reason!

While your reaching for the bucket , it would appear PAIN has picked up on that tautological...tendentious mi..mi..mi..Beaker blg:http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...-ef12-8481.pdf

PAIN1

PAIN2


Doin a Kelpie!

[Creampuff]

[T]hey have no intention, whatsoever, of changing anything.

Why would they?

Governments wrap themselves in a lovely warm coat of people who never bring problems or bad news: only options and solutions. When has CASA or ATSB troubled government with anything?

Governments must respond to the important issues: opinion polls and focus groups. When has CASA or ATSB done anything to affect opinion polls or draw the attention of focus groups?

CASA and ATSB are operating perfectly. Almost nothing they do makes any difference to the political fortunes of the Laborials.

(You were warned…)

[SIUYA]

When has CASA or ATSB done anything to ... draw the attention of focus groups?

Refer Parliamentary Friendship Groups ? Parliament of Australia

Parliamentary Friends of Aviation Group

Contact persons:
Mr Ed Husic, MP
The Hon Sussan Ley, MP

The purpose of the Parliamentary Friends of Aviation group is to enable members to understand the challenges facing aviation in Australia, providing a forum in which to propose ways to address these concerns.

The group is well-aware of the contents of Senate Inquiry report, and of the Minister's failure to respond to date.

[004wercras]

A friend in need is a ..........

Hmmm, one way these Parliamentary friends could get to know the real aviation issues is to speak to Senators Xenophon, Fawcett, Nash, Heff and a couple of others. Plenty of briefing available from them!

I noticed on the list there was a Parliamentary friends of dyslexia, with the contact person being one Craig Thomson! Perhaps that explains his trouble with numbers and accounting?

And I didn't notice a Parliamentary friends of pot plants group? I think concerns about Pete's welfare is good cause for a friends group to be added to this topic.
And I also didn't notice a Parliamentary friends of Julia group? Yeah I know, silly idea. Then again there was no friends of Beaker, no friends of The Skull.........

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Thought of the day. Lets have a whip round and send the two bosses off to PowerPoint beyond Reason philosophy to icao and the FAA. Maybe run it passed professor Reason.

Choccy frog to anyone that can see mention of the senate report on the casa website. There is the Atsb / casa statement that plane talking ripped into.

The last casa briefing avoided mentioning and I reckon the June one will too. Well it's old news now.


I wonder if senator Xenophon has thought about learning to fly?

[Kharon]

Ops normal – complaint box empty.

Whoa; no bother to anyone eh? well, lets not go to Staunton, Monarch, Lockhart they are old wounds which may have caused the minister some slight indigestion. Pel Air? well that's not embarrassing; no, not all. In a normal political environment the Norfolk inquiry could have caused the odd ripple on the serene purview the minister holds of matters aeronautical. The results of the inquiry Tsunami have yet to reach the sublime, peaceful shores of sleepy hollow, but I reckon they will. Hempel, Barrier, Canley Vale, Quadrio: lots more where they came from.

The minister may not feel a need to be embarrassed, but there are plenty of others who should be, a great plenty. Oh, they may be easily identified as the one with their heads firmly stuck in the sandbox (or trough) of their choice.......

Parallels anyone?

[Lookleft]

On page 127 of the first Senate Inquiry which was released in June 2011 Sen X quotes a pilot saying "Better to have Senate Inquiry now, than a royal Commission later" After the Government response to the second inquiry I would rephrase what I said to "Better have a Royal Commission because the Senate Inquiries are not making any difference"

[Sarcs]

The "Great White Elephant" is in Albo's office!

Kharon:

The minister may not feel a need to be embarrassed, but there are plenty of others who should be, a great plenty. Oh, they may be easily identified as the one with their heads firmly stuck in the sandbox (or trough) of their choice.......

Yes the MSM 24 news cycle is a weird and wonderous thing..all those journos clambering for the next 'sound bite'...what is it at the moment...#menugate..meanwhile the clock is ticking to the next boat load of drownings or in our case another Norfolk accident or Lockhart tragedy..Tick..Tock!

Still the Minister sits while contemplating his train set and the elephant in the corner keeps gaining weight:

The MSM might be chasing the next cat up a tree story.. however the sordid Pel-Air debacle keeps filtering slowly but surely around the world, caught this short but concise summary from the 'Aviation Safety Network' (Flight Safety.org):

An Australian Senate Committee inquiry criticised the Australian aviation regulator CASA as well as Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) on their role in a 2009 accident investigation.
The Senate Committee on Aviation accident investigations was initiated in the wake of an accident involving the ditching of a medical evacuation IAI Westwind jet in November 2009.
The airplane was en route from Apia, Samoa to Norfolk Island in the Pacific Ocean. Headwind was greater than expected and the weather conditions at Norfolk Island deteriorated. The crew had increasing concerns about their fuel reserves but did not divert to an alternate airport. Following four missed approaches to Norfolk Airport in poor weather, the pilot ditched the plane close to the shore. All six on board were rescued.
ATSB concluded that the pilot of the accident flight amongst others “did not plan the flight in accordance with the existing regulatory and operator requirements”.
An episode of the Australian current affairs tv programme Four Corners indicated that there were inconsistencies between the ATSB investigation report and a Special Audit from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority into the operator of the medevac jet.
In September 2012, Independent Senator for South Australia, Nick Xenophon, successfully called for the establishment of a Senate inquiry. The committee’s objective was to find out why the pilot became the last line of defence and to maximise the safety outcomes of future ATSB and Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) investigations in the interests of the travelling public.
Many submitters and witnesses in the inquiry asserted that the ATSB’s report was not balanced and included scant coverage of contributing systemic factors such as organisational and regulatory issues, human factors and survivability aspects.
The Committee stated that CASA failed to provide the ATSB with critical audit documents regarding the operator of the airplane. These documents “demonstrated CASA’s failure to properly oversee the Pel-Air operations,” according to the Committee.
Parts of the ATSB investigation process lacked transparency, objectivity and due process. The committee finds that the ATSB’s subjective investigative processes were driven in part by ministerial guidance prioritising high capacity public transport operations over other types of aviation transport.



The inquiry has made 26 recommendations, including redrafting the information sharing agreement between CASA and the ATSB, and re-opening the Pel Air inquiry.

• Senate Committee Report
• Four Corners tv programme
• ASN Accident Description Westwind accident at Norfolk Island

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/06/02/atsb-and-casa-criticised-by-australian-senate-committee/

Probably a good thing that the Labor Government is losing all the furniture because pretty soon there won't be enough room in the Minister's office for the overweight elephant and the couch...elephant?..couch?

[Sunfish]

I can appreciate that some operators may be reluctant to report an accident or incident to us because they’re concerned about the consequences of doing so. Let me be clear about this: the ATSB investigates accidents and incidents to find out what happened so it doesn’t happen again. We don’t investigate to lay blame.

Whenever someone says the words in bold or "to be honest", I check my wallet is still in its pocket.

I don't believe Mr. Dolan has the confidence of anyone in the industry, but that is just my opinion.

[Creampuff]

Mr Dolan forgot to add an important sentence:

I can appreciate that some operators may be reluctant to report an accident or incident to us because they’re concerned about the consequences of doing so. Let me be clear about this: the ATSB investigates accidents and incidents to find out what happened so it doesn’t happen again. We don’t investigate to lay blame. ATSB auto-forwards your reports to CASA, so that CASA can lay blame after consulting with ATSB.

[4dogs]

laying the blame

Creamie,

We don’t investigate to lay blame. ATSB auto-forwards your reports to CASA, so that CASA can lay blame after consulting with ATSB.

As much as I love your perspicacity , the Pel-Air inquiry told us two variations to your theme:

1. The ATSB is so frightened of the potential of being accused of laying blame that they do not investigate fully, thus avoiding the possibility of discovering something untoward, the mere exposure of which could be construed as "laying blame"; and

2. CASA showed an unerring ability to singularly lay the blame on the pilot in command without consultation with the ATSB, perhaps even withholding information that might undermine that singularity.

And I so look forward to your sanity and consistency in participating in these debates...

[Creampuff]

I cannot be anything but deeply impressed by the brilliance of the bureaucracies’ response to the opportunity created by the recommendation that an MoU be established between ATSB and CASA. It has undoubtedly resulted in a chilling effect on the reporting of accidents and incidents to ATSB (hence the plea on the ATSB blog).

Outcome? Fewer recorded accidents and incidents, thus demonstrating that the system of aviation regulation and accident investigation is working.

I dips me lid to Dr Aleck. From his evidence to the Senate Committee on 15 Feb 13 [bolding and underlining in text added]

Dr Aleck: I was very closely involved in the development of the MOU and the situation that preceded it. If I could just say something that might put some context for both Senator Fawcett's question and Mr McCormick's answer, it might help a bit. Firstly, the rationale for the new MOU was to create an environment in which, if I may put it this way, as much information as appropriate could be exchanged between the agencies. The motivating factor at the time had far less to do with any concerns on the part of the ATSB with information CASA was not providing to them but rather information that the ATSB in the past had not provided to CASA.

The fact that the provisions [of the MOU] read the way they do reflects a very appropriate form of reciprocity, in which the ATSB under its new leadership said, 'Yes, we will provide you with more information, and we expect you to provide us with the same.' In the spirit of that arrangement, and I agree it probably should be read largely, the question should that a default position should be: 'We'll give you as much as you possibly can and then you decide when we've given you too much.' ….

Who in their right mind would volunteer potentially prejudicial information to ATSB when the publicly-agreed arrangement is that it will presumptively be given to CASA?

[004wercras]

Aviation copulation

Beaker was fooled by some clever Voodoo. The Beaker was too busy counting pennies in his bucket (albeit a much shallower bucket than what exists at the Holy Grail Comcare), and before the 'bureaucrat with no aviation experience' knew it he was duped, tricked, and out spun by a well experienced practitioner of 'all things magic and nothing aviation'! At that point, the pens were stroked across the page, the ink dried, the foreplay between CAsA and the ATSBeaker was over and conjugal relations were cemented in a moment of heaving, sweating, leg shaking 'report sharing'! For CAsA it was the icing on the cake, the very top of a James Reason iceberg, the all encompassing money shot! The CAsA had vital information, information on all manner of naughty operators that they could now place in their 'philes', to be used, abused and buggerised at a convenient time (such as at an AAT hearing or during an ICC complaint or simply in general!).

Oh yes, in the meantime an already distrusted CAsA and a former department of integrity and respect, the ATSBeaker, banged monstrous nails in their coffins. No trust exists, no respect exists, no belief exists, no hope exists and no capability or integrity any longer exists. The puerile, toxic mess is a mirror image of the Labor government - a carcass, the shell of something once living, a rancid lame animal that needs to be put out of its misery!

Yours sincerely,

Tendentious blogger.

[601]

an MoU be established between ATSB and CASA

Why do these two organisations need a MoU?

ATSB should be at arms length from CAsA.

The ATSB could/should investigate the methodology, the application of the Regs and "policy" of CAsA during an accident investigation.

If there was a MoU between these two organisations, this could, in theory, place limitations on what the ATSB could do in investigating CAsA.

If the ATSB want information from CAsA, it should be obtained in the same way the ATSB obtains information from the industry.

For better or worse, CAsA is part of the industry. In accident investigations, should be subject to the same obligations and investigations as any industry participant.

[Kharon]

Willyleaks photo.

Breathless with anticipation, the crowd awaits the unveiling of Albo's monument to air safety.



It's an interesting piece, formed on the famous Claptrap model and inflated with organically generated, voodoo enriched methane. Originally sculpted from a mixture of recycled, shredded white paper and elephant pooh, the spin doctors have raved. The Ills of Society association believe that once exposed to the elements the true nature of the disaster will be revealed.

The sculpture is sponsored by: Total Waste Of Time Society – (Embuggerance branch).....

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

ICAO Assembly 38th session

ICAO assembly sitting on 24th September. If gobbles is in Montreal perhaps time to distribute the senate report to other members.

http://www.icao.int/Meetings/a38/Doc...01_rev2_en.pdf