AIPA President Drops the ball on Lateline 31/10/2011
NP
Are you also factoring in the 'value' of missing:
- important events at home,
- public holidays,
- time wasted in places while obligations/people at home need you?
Allowances? Are you suggesting that people absent on duty should pay for the privilege too? Public servants, military, pollies, businesses and, I bet, even you wouldn't do it so what's your point?
Have you walked a mile in the shoes, or just like to imagine you have? You're sounding like some 'rubber desk Johnnie' who thinks crew go on a holiday every week!
- important events at home,
- public holidays,
- time wasted in places while obligations/people at home need you?
Allowances? Are you suggesting that people absent on duty should pay for the privilege too? Public servants, military, pollies, businesses and, I bet, even you wouldn't do it so what's your point?
Have you walked a mile in the shoes, or just like to imagine you have? You're sounding like some 'rubber desk Johnnie' who thinks crew go on a holiday every week!
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It's All About the Message
Peuce:
YES THIS IS THE MESSAGE THAT NEEDS TO BE TOLD OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!
Yes, corporations, in principle, have the right to decide their own direction. However, there are certain corporations that have an additional national responsibility?
Qantas, because of how its present entity was formed, and because of the additional responsibilities attached to that creation, is such a corporation.
Although those responsibilities may be more onerous than those of other public companies, they were known or implied, and accepted, at the time of creation.
Those responsibilities mean that Qantas is, in fact, owned not only be the shareholders, but by every Australian.
Yes, the shareholders own the profits, however, every other Australian is entitled to the employment opportunities, the supply opportunities, the training opportunities and the prestige offered by the Qantas brand being wholly based within Australia.
Moving any of those opportunities offshore is stealing from Australian pockets.
Qantas, because of how its present entity was formed, and because of the additional responsibilities attached to that creation, is such a corporation.
Although those responsibilities may be more onerous than those of other public companies, they were known or implied, and accepted, at the time of creation.
Those responsibilities mean that Qantas is, in fact, owned not only be the shareholders, but by every Australian.
Yes, the shareholders own the profits, however, every other Australian is entitled to the employment opportunities, the supply opportunities, the training opportunities and the prestige offered by the Qantas brand being wholly based within Australia.
Moving any of those opportunities offshore is stealing from Australian pockets.
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Your operation is losing 200 Millions a year.
People need to remember that this figure is simply the figure announced by QF to support their position & has not been proven to be fact by QF in any way, shape or form.
Actually, the accuracy of the figure has been questioned by many, ever since it was announced by AJ.
This is a perfect case of unsubstantiated information becoming fact. You put the information you want out there & then repeat it as often as you can. Eventually the press picks it up as fact & runs with it & then the general public start to consider it as fact as well.
The only way to reverse the perception is to do the same process in reverse. Question the accuracy of the figure over & over again. Ask for QF to justify the figure over & over again. Ask the questions regarding JetStar costs being transferred to the QF long haul accounts over & over again.
Eventually the mainstream press will pick it up & run with it & then the public will be asking the same questions in their minds also. Particularly now, as both the press & sections of the public are ready to go after QF & AJ.
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Yeah agree he came across a bit disheveled and awkwardly, although you have to forgive the man given he was up till 2am for the FWA verdict- he clearly looked exhausted from my tv set at what was a 2200 interview after a few very long days....
Woodward does seem to have a better finesse to his speech as well as manerisms , evident on the 7pm project other night where he was faced with what id rate one of the dumbest questions of the year by George Negus equating pilots to bus drivers- Woodwards response " I fly a 327 million dollar plane insured for 5 billion with 457 lives onboard' and that sir is called ownage!
Woodward does seem to have a better finesse to his speech as well as manerisms , evident on the 7pm project other night where he was faced with what id rate one of the dumbest questions of the year by George Negus equating pilots to bus drivers- Woodwards response " I fly a 327 million dollar plane insured for 5 billion with 457 lives onboard' and that sir is called ownage!
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Ive said it before on other threads but here we go:
There are many in Qantas, and I am talking directly about engineers and pilots, who are grossly overpaid and grossly under worked and who are also represented by some of the dumbest, most backward unions on the planet. These union meatheads still talk about the Eureka stockade like it was their finest hour.... when all that happened was their smelly-bearded union forefathers were mowed down in a hail of musket balls and life went on as usual the next day. Is that still your gauge of a successful IR campaign?
You clowns dont stand a chance of winning and will still have your bottom lips stuck out in another 20 years about this issue, just like those who frequent these pages still carping about the big strike of '89. Yep, that should have taught you a lesson but obviously you are slow learners!
Pathetic!
There are many in Qantas, and I am talking directly about engineers and pilots, who are grossly overpaid and grossly under worked and who are also represented by some of the dumbest, most backward unions on the planet. These union meatheads still talk about the Eureka stockade like it was their finest hour.... when all that happened was their smelly-bearded union forefathers were mowed down in a hail of musket balls and life went on as usual the next day. Is that still your gauge of a successful IR campaign?
You clowns dont stand a chance of winning and will still have your bottom lips stuck out in another 20 years about this issue, just like those who frequent these pages still carping about the big strike of '89. Yep, that should have taught you a lesson but obviously you are slow learners!
Pathetic!
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The only way to reverse the perception is to do the same process in reverse. Question the accuracy of the figure over & over again. Ask for QF to justify the figure over & over again. Ask the questions regarding JetStar costs being transferred to the QF long haul accounts over & over again.
A workplace determination is where a full bench of FWA formally hears supporting arguments from both sides regarding the issues in dispute. I recall writing to Qantas a letter with 61 questions regarding the announced 200 million International loss. They never answered them.
The answer to these questions and the supporting evidence will most certainly be subpoenaed in view of the full public in about a months time as part of the determination hearing. If anyone here thinks that the facts about Qantas can be hidden forever, please think again. This dispute (which is not just about 3 EA Agreements) has a long way to run yet. We won't win every battle. Not every day will be a good day. Your union Reps will make mistakes but the truth will set us all free.
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The other thing that annoys me is QF management, the press & even some of the posters here, crapping on about pilot salaries.
Forget about the individual salaries for a minute & take a look at the cost impact on ticket prices. As Barry Jackson pointed out in his interview, pilot costs are about 2% to 4%. So if you take a $4,000 international ticket for example & use the higher figure of 4%, the cost of both the captain & first officer in that ticket is just $160. Using a 50% savings on pilots salaries (and they are not going to get anywhere near that by offshoring or anything else), saves a mere $80 on that ticket!
Putting the individual salaries out there, along with quoting the highest salary they can get away with, is a smokescreen to hoodwink the public, the politicians & the press into believing that pilot salaries are a major factor in the cost issues the company claims it is having.
Forget about the individual salaries for a minute & take a look at the cost impact on ticket prices. As Barry Jackson pointed out in his interview, pilot costs are about 2% to 4%. So if you take a $4,000 international ticket for example & use the higher figure of 4%, the cost of both the captain & first officer in that ticket is just $160. Using a 50% savings on pilots salaries (and they are not going to get anywhere near that by offshoring or anything else), saves a mere $80 on that ticket!
Putting the individual salaries out there, along with quoting the highest salary they can get away with, is a smokescreen to hoodwink the public, the politicians & the press into believing that pilot salaries are a major factor in the cost issues the company claims it is having.
Here's another thing that is in danger of becoming fact if it is repeated often enough:
New Piper said:
The shareholders were asked to approve the CEO's salary increase. 98% of votes cast were in favour of that. The shareholders were not asked to vote on any restructuring plan.
New Piper said:
The restructuring of LH will and must occur, 98% of shareholders approve of it
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Fed Sec,
As much as I love reading your posts, it maybe worthwhile keeping a low profile at the moment regarding your plans and tactics?
You don't want to be giving the other side any free kicks.
I'm sure all 3 unions have a plan mapped out with multiple scenarios, which included the lockout. So don't give them any information via this forum. We know they read it!
As much as I love reading your posts, it maybe worthwhile keeping a low profile at the moment regarding your plans and tactics?
You don't want to be giving the other side any free kicks.
I'm sure all 3 unions have a plan mapped out with multiple scenarios, which included the lockout. So don't give them any information via this forum. We know they read it!
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NewPiper, victor two and Me Myself:
It is a beautiful sunny day outside here (in Sydney at least). It is not safe for you to venture out, or as you well know, you will turn to stone.
I just have your best interests at heart, that's all........
It is a beautiful sunny day outside here (in Sydney at least). It is not safe for you to venture out, or as you well know, you will turn to stone.
I just have your best interests at heart, that's all........
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As much as I love reading your posts, it maybe worthwhile keeping a low profile at the moment regarding your plans and tactics?
You don't want to be giving the other side any free kicks.
I'm sure all 3 unions have a plan mapped out with multiple scenarios, which included the lockout. So don't give them any information via this forum. We know they read it!
You don't want to be giving the other side any free kicks.
I'm sure all 3 unions have a plan mapped out with multiple scenarios, which included the lockout. So don't give them any information via this forum. We know they read it!
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Steve,
I agree with kotoyebe. Time to enact 'stealth mode', go to ground, plan the next movements and not give the parasites anthing they can use against you.
Besides, you hardly have to utter a word at the moment, AJ's actions have brought enough attention on themselves from a variety of individuals. Sit back and watch the ball of string unravel at their own hands.
I agree with kotoyebe. Time to enact 'stealth mode', go to ground, plan the next movements and not give the parasites anthing they can use against you.
Besides, you hardly have to utter a word at the moment, AJ's actions have brought enough attention on themselves from a variety of individuals. Sit back and watch the ball of string unravel at their own hands.
You want to keep the jobs in Australia ? Well then, adapt to what the competition does..............or renationalize Qantas and let the tax payer chip in.
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jetbest
yeah buddy, missing important occasions and home family time is why airline pilots, especially longhaulers earn good bucks generally.
We all miss out on the things you mention - the argument is why a QF pilot thinks he needs to be paid more than a singair/thai/china/NZ pilot to suffer the same lifestyle problems.
If it sucks being away from home, will more money really help. And if more money aint forthcoming, then aint market forces speaking to you?
yeah buddy, missing important occasions and home family time is why airline pilots, especially longhaulers earn good bucks generally.
We all miss out on the things you mention - the argument is why a QF pilot thinks he needs to be paid more than a singair/thai/china/NZ pilot to suffer the same lifestyle problems.
If it sucks being away from home, will more money really help. And if more money aint forthcoming, then aint market forces speaking to you?
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.....the argument is why a QF pilot thinks he needs to be paid more than a singair/thai/china/NZ pilot to suffer the same lifestyle problems.
To most QF LH pilots including myself it doesn't matter a rat's (pardon the pun) what we get paid if Alan Joyce is hell bent on sending our jobs offshore, shrinking the premium brand significantly, and causing our Qantas career prospects to grind to a complete halt (which they already have right now). It just doesn't matter what we get paid. I don't care a fig what I get paid until the above problems get addressed because until I have a career and long term job, pay is entirely "notional"!
It wouldn't matter if I took a 50% pay cut. Joyce wants to wind up mainline as much as he can and send the jobs to Asia regardless. There is no point in negotiating anything at all if he is going to do that. If he decides not to send mainline business across to Asia, then we can start talking efficiencies, working harder, who gets paid what, etc. But until then, it simply doesn't matter. You're debating pay scales for an Australian job which is about to cease to exist!
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How come I can earn more flying for China Southern base here in Australia?
A330 Captain.
My mates overseas on similar aircraft earn more than I do.
The whole pay argument is a furphy!
Esp if $US rate changes back to 75cents [or 50 cents!
]
A330 Captain.
My mates overseas on similar aircraft earn more than I do.
The whole pay argument is a furphy!
Esp if $US rate changes back to 75cents [or 50 cents!
]
You're all making this too complicated.
It costs Overseas Airline Alpha $x per pilot (or engineer, or cabin crew).
It costs that pilot $y to live in Alpha ... and he walks away with $z left over
It costs Qantas $2x per pilot (or engineer, or cabin crew).
It costs that pilot $2y to live in Australia ... and he walks away with $z left over
So, generally speaking, the staff of all airlines have a similar financial outcome.
However, Qantas doesn't want to pay $2x ... it only wants to pay $x ... and play in the same playpen as all the other cheap airlines.
However, we are saying to Qantas that they can still pay $2x and make a decent profit ... IF, they continue to accept nothing less than technical and operational excellence. That is what will RE-build the brand and what will warrant a premium fare price.
History has proven that many people WILL pay a premium for excellence.
It costs Overseas Airline Alpha $x per pilot (or engineer, or cabin crew).
It costs that pilot $y to live in Alpha ... and he walks away with $z left over
It costs Qantas $2x per pilot (or engineer, or cabin crew).
It costs that pilot $2y to live in Australia ... and he walks away with $z left over
So, generally speaking, the staff of all airlines have a similar financial outcome.
However, Qantas doesn't want to pay $2x ... it only wants to pay $x ... and play in the same playpen as all the other cheap airlines.
However, we are saying to Qantas that they can still pay $2x and make a decent profit ... IF, they continue to accept nothing less than technical and operational excellence. That is what will RE-build the brand and what will warrant a premium fare price.
History has proven that many people WILL pay a premium for excellence.