Virgin Australia Cadetship 2012 & 2013
I know quite a few QF cadets, over a range of ranks and I am proud to call some of them friends, and more than happy to operate with them.
You would hope that the selection process reflects the companies attitude to safety and performance, and that those with the aptitude for this sort of thing are recognised.
Most of the ire that cadets draw seems to come from the notion that they ,(or dad) bought their way into the company, whilst others had to endure third world conditions in some outback post, fighting for everything they got and worked their way to their goal. Big deal! Can we use that same logic and suggest those presently at Virgin that are there as a result of a 'blue star' or knowing the right bloke can be lumped into the same basket? And let's be honest, there are quite a few of those! Of course not.
At the end of the day, if something goes bang I really don't think years spent in the bush in a 210 are going to better equip you to handle the situation. An understanding that you don't know everything, a willingness to always want to improve, a professionalism to know your stuff and an attitude to embrace working with others, I believe, will.
My years in GA did teach me a great deal, but probably more about myself. I feel lucky for that opportunity and I'm glad I went down that path. But I'm afraid it all counts for nil if you aren't willing to do the things that are required to be an accountable pilot.
You would hope that the selection process reflects the companies attitude to safety and performance, and that those with the aptitude for this sort of thing are recognised.
Most of the ire that cadets draw seems to come from the notion that they ,(or dad) bought their way into the company, whilst others had to endure third world conditions in some outback post, fighting for everything they got and worked their way to their goal. Big deal! Can we use that same logic and suggest those presently at Virgin that are there as a result of a 'blue star' or knowing the right bloke can be lumped into the same basket? And let's be honest, there are quite a few of those! Of course not.
At the end of the day, if something goes bang I really don't think years spent in the bush in a 210 are going to better equip you to handle the situation. An understanding that you don't know everything, a willingness to always want to improve, a professionalism to know your stuff and an attitude to embrace working with others, I believe, will.
My years in GA did teach me a great deal, but probably more about myself. I feel lucky for that opportunity and I'm glad I went down that path. But I'm afraid it all counts for nil if you aren't willing to do the things that are required to be an accountable pilot.
More than likely (as already mentioned elsewhere on this thread), they will be placed into the right-hand seat of an ATR - or the jump seat of a 777.
If you reckon an (albeit highly trained) cadet with 250 hours is better than a 3000 hr GA pilot then you ARE deluded.
Forget the useless generalisations about Qantas cadets and ex-mil cadets. The comparison HERE is between a 250 hour cadet that has been trained to operate an ATR vs a 2500hr (average skywest new employee) GA pilot who has ALSO been trained to operate an ATR.
Both 'candidates' will have received CRM training, ATR endorsement training, ATR Line Training. Yet 1 candidate has 2250hrs MORE hours of making radio calls, manipulating an aircraft in a variety of conditions, making decisions and even just knowing when it just "doesnt feel right".
Its either money making exercise or its being seeen to be "doing the right thing in the industry".
simple as that
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Instead of putting them in a low-risk environment like a highly-automated aircraft that more often than not is operating 100% in controlled airspace with the option of an ILS or VOR/DME at worst at each port. No lets put them in a high workload, short sector, minimal automation environment to "earn their stripes". The ATR has no auto throttle, no VNAV and will operate to ports with only an NDB with no distance information.
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Chadzat has the right idea...there is definately a place for cadets in the industry, but not to replace the guys with experience. To generalise cadets as better, more professional pilots is a disgrace. Building your hours up on a clapped out 210 teaches you to be calm when sh#t hits the fan, cause it does, and when something goes wrong, which isn't a typical failure, I know who I would won't in the right hand seat next to me...
I agree with your assertion Bunglerat, but do you think its fair on the line captains of (in this instance) an ATR that they should have to operate with these cadets while they get their "higher standard" before you see them in your 737?
They have to learn from SOMEWHERE. No one magically acquires experience. The training standard and regime should be the same whether they are cadet or come from GA. A standard is a standard.
They have to learn from SOMEWHERE. No one magically acquires experience. The training standard and regime should be the same whether they are cadet or come from GA. A standard is a standard.
Chadzat has the right idea...there is definately a place for cadets in the industry, but not to replace the guys with experience. To generalise cadets as better, more professional pilots is a disgrace. Building your hours up on a clapped out 210 teaches you to be calm when sh#t hits the fan, cause it does, and when something goes wrong, which isn't a typical failure, I know who I would won't in the right hand seat next to me...
But isnt that the point of all the aptitude tests, co-ordination tests, etc they do at interviews is to work out which candidates naturally have those "abilities". Lets say at the interview for the QF cadetship and there was 2500 applications for 20 spots. The 20 that get in for a start, would be the best of the best to make it so far with the amount of tests they do to filter out the "wrong" applicants. They are most likely switched on and are fast learners, have good leadership/teamworking skills, fairly motivated, most likely particapated in Airforce Cadets/aviation related activities (which gives them valuable skills) that get in to cadetships like these. I agree that they should be employing GA people over cadets (in Australia). But I dont think Cadet pilots arent as bad as what some people in this thread make them out to be.
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Building your hours up on a clapped out 210 teaches you to be calm when sh#t hits the fan, cause it does, and when something goes wrong, which isn't a typical failure, I know who I would won't in the right hand seat next to me.
That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.
That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.
Gold psycho. Couldn't have said it better myself! Exactly what I was thinking.
Come fly
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McGrath, there can be no doubt about quality GA time in a Piper, but unless you've had an electric flap failure, followed by an emergency flap-less landing at 75kts, then you simply never will posses the steely resolve required of today's airline pilot. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. 
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So where does this leave the Lads and Ladettes who wish to join Virgin Australia Mainline (?) from other regional operators (Rex, Skippers, QLink etc?). No more direct entry?
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Makes you wonder why the operators of Corporate Global Express and similar highly sophisticated long range VIP jets don't learn from the airline trends, and take in cadet F/O's. It would be cheaper than hiring experienced captains which they do at present. Seems strange that actual flying experience is highly valued by these operators, but sneered at by the airlines with bigger jets and lots more passengers..
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Well said come fly.
That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.
That's exactly who I want next to me as well; Someone with day VFR Single Engine Cessna time. That's money can't buy experience right there. In fact when something goes wrong, the first thing that I want to hear is "it's ok, I once flew a Single Engine Cessna". I'd be instantly relieved because i'd automatically know that they would be incredibly calm. I simply can't understand how anyone could be qualified on a jet without having had Single engine Cessna time. In fact you should travel around as a passenger just in case one of the flight crew go incapacitated and only a person with single engine Cessna time can save the day. What, with your incredible calmness that only comes from flying a single engine Cessna.
I just don't get this extreme example, who goes from flying a C210 to an A320 anyway? Is that like how Webber went from a peddle car to a F1?
The funniest part about cadet pilots is that they don't reach the insurance requirements to hire most light twins; I'm sure they think that it's unjustified but people who are better at rubix cubes than them think otherwise.
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Never really understood the need for cadetships in Aus, giving the abundant availability of pilot. But the Cadets I fly with in CX are absolutely top notch. If there put through an independent selection process(NO nepotism), and giving high quality, full time, intense training, you get a product second to none. But is this necessary in Australia???? I really dont think so
I've flown with plenty of useless former GA and Military pilots!
If you are a 'real' qantas captain then you dont seem to think much of your direct entry colleagues. Perhaps you might explain how the cadet selection process is better than the direct entry process?
I do however take issue with cadet programs that are used to put downward pressure on employment conditions
That would be all of them with the exception of Qantas where an extended period as SO is required.
Come fly
The fact is that the skies of Europe are full of Captains who came from Cadets.
You my friend are wrong in so many ways.
The fact is that the skies of Europe are full of Captains who came from Cadets.
You my friend are wrong in so many ways.
The fact is in USA you must have 1500 hours before you set foot in the cockpit, so what is your point? We should go for the lower standard as in Europe or the higher standard as in USA?
Would any sychophants on this thread care to discuss the senate inquiry in particular recommendation #1?
Bottom line i dont want my family flying with the 18 yo 200hr zero to hero buy a job brigade. Thanks but no thanks. Frankly if the public really understood what was going on they would freak.
Ok this whole thread is about HOSS getting his name up in lights and being the "first" poster to 'announce' the Vigin Australia Cadet Scheme.
The truth is all that has been announced internally is a request to providers for the service.
Thats it!
When something more substantial is available I am sure it will be up in lights for all to argue over.
Move along nothing else to see here
The truth is all that has been announced internally is a request to providers for the service.
Thats it!
When something more substantial is available I am sure it will be up in lights for all to argue over.
Move along nothing else to see here
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There was an add in the Australian a few weeks calling for training providers for a cadet program run by Virgin Australia and Skywest.
If you watched the senate inquiry, virgin did say the plan to start a cadet program in 2012.
Cadets will only make up a small amount of pilot numbers, so they will still recruit from the regionals etc.
If you watched the senate inquiry, virgin did say the plan to start a cadet program in 2012.
Cadets will only make up a small amount of pilot numbers, so they will still recruit from the regionals etc.