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PER ATC - Worst in Australia?

Old 12th Aug 2011, 01:08
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Air Services PER ATC - Worst in Australia?

Is it just me or are PER ATC losing the plot?

The PTL system is a farce, being allocated a slot time only to have it change (several times) after allocation, the constant slow down to speed up, a risible taxi slot time system, a movement rate (26, yes thatís right 26 per hour on a good day) which defies belief.

I am astounded that such a pivotal link in the national infrastructure can be so incompetently managed.

And no, I am not interested in all the excuses why it canít be improved. If you are about to tell me that 3 minutes between departing aircraft is the best you can do then perhaps you should be looking for employment elsewhere.

PS. If anyone knows how to setup a poll to compare pilot sentiment about major ATC centres feel free

Last edited by Jim Shoos; 12th Aug 2011 at 03:11. Reason: Political Correctness
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 01:12
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Is it 26 and hour ARRIVAL rate? Or MOVEMENT rate?
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 02:18
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[Commence Rant]
Typical pilot (I assume) whinger. The main reason the PTL system is a farce is because your ilk choose to ignore it! That's all going to change soon. Hopefully AsA will gain the Metron balls to bang the heads of the queue-jumpers. Only then will the real problem be outed: bad scheduling/not enough runways.

The number of times I've had my PTL changed by AsA in the last 12 months I can count on...the fingers of one hand.

The only thing wrong with the taxi slot system is AsA still allows a too-high taxi rate. Slow the whole thing down more, I say!

As for slowing down and speeding up, toughen up, Princess. Gives us something to do.

[end Rant]
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 02:45
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Starts with P: 26 hour total arrivals and departures.

Bloggs: All i can say is you should get out more. Changing PTL's are a daily occurrence and no, my ilk do not choose to ignore it. Took a 90 minute delay on ground. Departed to arrive at PTL and still got 25 mins holding. In the last 4 weeks have spent over 10 hours on the ground and still held for over 4 hours!
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 02:55
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Jim, don't blame ATC for PTLs not working. As I said, it's caused in the main by pilots ignoring them. And perhaps a flawed allocation system in Canberra. That's not ATC's fault. You wouldn't like your pax sledging you for the bad weather, U/S aircraft and turbulence. It's not fair to sledge ATC for things out of their control.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 03:00
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OK Bloggs point taken, however the last time I looked ATC stood for Air Traffic CONTROL, it is the lack of the last bit that is frustrating. If the system isn't working which it blatantly isn't, and hasn't from it's inception then perhaps they should fix it, after all it is their playground.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 03:08
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Jim,

Loke Bloggs said: replace your "ATC" rant with "Airservices" if you must, but stop blaiming ATC. The amount of say that a line controller has in ANYTHING like this is infinitely close to nothing.

Controllers don't blame captains for a share price or not getting a window seat, so don't blame controllers for things outside their area of control.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 03:13
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Starts with P: Agreed poor form on my behalf. My rant is certainly not aimed at individual controllers, rather the deplorable system. Have changed title.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 03:23
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The reason people are not abiding by PTL's-

Hold on the ground for 1 hour to meeet PTL- cop 15 mins holding, land 1 hr 15 mins late.

Disregard PTL and depart anyway- cop 15 mins holding arrive 15 mins late.

Either way you get holding, but I am yet to be worse off by not following the PTL. Sometimes when we have abided by the PTL I have seen bigger bottlenecks out of the pilbra than if we had departed when we were ready.

Do you see why we disregard it? Its a load of *$#@$!

As for taxi slot times in 10 minute blocks- nice theory but what if everyone taxis in the last couple of minutes of the 10 mins slot and the next group are ready at the start of their 10 minute slot.

I am not blaming ATC but these band aid patches dont work. WAC and airservices need to fix the real problems!
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 03:46
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Starts with P:
I reckon one of the fixes starts with A - its called ADS-B
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 03:48
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If the system isn't working which it blatantly isn't, and hasn't from it's inception then perhaps they should fix it, after all it is their playground.
Oh and Jim you've hit the nail on the head it's a SYSTEM problem and the solution needs to be a collective approach - airlines, airport, air traffic provider...
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 04:12
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The problem is twofold:

Pilots see that not making a PTL has no consequence (for them), in fact it gets you ahead most times by reducing the overall delay.

ATC seem UNABLE to enforce a promulgated PTL from the NOC.


There is a disconnect between the NOC issuing a PTL and ATC being able to ask/tell aircraft to make their PTL. If I hear another aircraft get my assigned PTL because they are early, why can't ATC tell them to sod off as that is assigned to my aircraft?

If the ATCOs cannot enforce a PTL the system fails. They can enforce a feeder fix time so why not a PTL?

That is the main issue here.

Yes pilots are not following the PTL but that follows them seeing no consequence for not doing so.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 04:44
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...the constant slow down to speed up...
I've got no qualms with reducing to get the required spacing from the bloke in front of me who is doing 330 knots and then putting the pedal down to maintain a high speed sequence. As long as I know to expect this so I can adjust the profile accordingly I'd say it's actually an efficient use of the airspace.

PERs problems are more about airspace and where all the aircraft are going to/from than it is about the ATCOs themselves.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 05:30
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PTL = Programmed Time of Landing.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 06:01
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And it would help a whole lot more if the WAC tendered the runway works out to a company who worked 24/7.

"you want to tender for this project? Fine. Find a crew who will work overnignt, weekends, public holidays. It needs to be finished by 'X' date and penalties will occur for each month you are delayed. Whats that? you cant meet those conditions. Know worries. We will find a company that will".

And why are the new taxiways not high speed?

As for the PTL, im over copping a ground delay only to be given an airbourne delay as well. Its not the controlers fault though. They are just working the same sh!t system we try to work in.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 06:05
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PERs problems are more about airspace and where all the aircraft are going to/from than it is about the ATCOs themselves.
Bloody aeroplanes! Always going to and from the airport. How inconsiderate!
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 06:36
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Why can't PER sector controllers give us the ammended ATIS when it changes?

All other ATCOs do for arrivals into SYD, MEL, BNE etc. eg. "All stations, SYD info now Bravo, changes are wind 160/15, runway 34L and R independant arrivals and departures".

The only info PER sector controllers give is the name of the new ATI, and none of the changes. Is it that hard?
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 07:08
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The only info PER sector controllers give is the name of the new ATI, and none of the changes.
Peacock, you're obviously not a frequent "user" of Perth. More often than not, I'd say 80%+, they give the changes as well.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 07:24
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yes we all know about the queue jumpers... blah blah blah.

But when you get a 20 min holding instructions and only to have it changed to no delay because you have a go at the controller about it, all the excuses seem to be pretty silly especially when you get to the field and there is only 2 aircraft within 15nm of the airport on a sunday evening. My question is if I had just accepted it would I have been doing circles for 20 min while the airport layer dormant?

Why does it take being rude and aggressive towards the controller to let common sense take over? I don't like doing it but sometimes if you don't you will sit on the ground in Geraldton for an hour and then get 20 min holding anyway like countless people have experienced (one I actually heard the other night).

Why is there not any communication with the operators???? does no one want to admit there is a problem?

How about stepping up and talking with the operators.
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Old 12th Aug 2011, 07:57
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Bloody aeroplanes! Always going to and from the airport. How inconsiderate!
C'mon Fathon. You and I both know that if every aeroplane into/ out of Sydney were heading to the same place (and outside of radar coverage, and with a sizeable chunk of airspace unavailable) that the movement rate would decrease significantly.
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