QF to EK on LWOP
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I think there's a bit of hysteria here. Some numbers:
There are about 120 767 F/Os and about 220 737 F/Os. Realistically, these are the only guys who will consider this offer in any great percentage. A few 330 or 747 guys might think about it, but not many. So, call it 400 total guys who will think about it (I've estimated all these numbers but they're pretty close). Make it 500 just for arguments sake. I'll eat my hat if 100 go. I'll be extremely surprised if 50 go. 25? Maybe. Again, make it 50 for the argument. If those 50 don't come, will you get a big payrise this year? Will it change the $ Billion EK will make?
As to the comment about lowering world-wide wages and causing QF to then lower conditions to compete or go out of business, are you serious? Hyperbole anyone?
Some have said it's OK to come if you resign but not OK on LWOP. Why? What's the difference? We'll be putting our toe in the water to see how hot it is. If it's not too hot, we'll stay. If it's too cold at home, we'll stay. I still submit that a guy on LWOP, who can leave if he's not happy, is less risk to T&C than a guy who resigns and puts on the sand handcuffs and thus can't realistically leave no matter what happens to T&C.
'That's not the way we do it in QF'. I reckon the most likely comment you will hear is: 'That's how you do it? F**k me. Why the hell didn't we do it that way in QF?'
There are about 120 767 F/Os and about 220 737 F/Os. Realistically, these are the only guys who will consider this offer in any great percentage. A few 330 or 747 guys might think about it, but not many. So, call it 400 total guys who will think about it (I've estimated all these numbers but they're pretty close). Make it 500 just for arguments sake. I'll eat my hat if 100 go. I'll be extremely surprised if 50 go. 25? Maybe. Again, make it 50 for the argument. If those 50 don't come, will you get a big payrise this year? Will it change the $ Billion EK will make?
As to the comment about lowering world-wide wages and causing QF to then lower conditions to compete or go out of business, are you serious? Hyperbole anyone?
Some have said it's OK to come if you resign but not OK on LWOP. Why? What's the difference? We'll be putting our toe in the water to see how hot it is. If it's not too hot, we'll stay. If it's too cold at home, we'll stay. I still submit that a guy on LWOP, who can leave if he's not happy, is less risk to T&C than a guy who resigns and puts on the sand handcuffs and thus can't realistically leave no matter what happens to T&C.
'That's not the way we do it in QF'. I reckon the most likely comment you will hear is: 'That's how you do it? F**k me. Why the hell didn't we do it that way in QF?'
Join Date: May 2004
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I think some of you need to relax. How niave do you think the QF guys are.
No sh*t it's not Qantas, thanks Captain obvious!, Have you worked for Qantas and know what it is like?
I don't think that there would be 1 guy or girl that thought or think they would get a command in 3 years.
So you are used to being screwed?
I am sure that you won't be told "this is how we do it a Qantas", And if that is you biggest worry, then you have nothing to worry about. So what if you hear a few War stories about how another Airline does it, or screws their pilots. I am sure the Qf guys are just as interested of your story.
What I can promise you, as I know a lot of the guys who are interested is that you will have a great time with anyone of them, and will find yourself definitley not drinking alone!
Also if anyone is going to win out of this it's the EK guys, more F/Os means more commands, more quickly for you guys!.
Look at the end of the day it's never a perfect situation, I would consider this to be very minor, it could be a lot worse, they could be opening a base here in Australia or elsewhere!, after all it is their train set and they will get pilots any way they can.
No sh*t it's not Qantas, thanks Captain obvious!, Have you worked for Qantas and know what it is like?
I don't think that there would be 1 guy or girl that thought or think they would get a command in 3 years.
2. Get used to covering your arse, everyone looks after number 1, there is no collective will here.
I am sure that you won't be told "this is how we do it a Qantas", And if that is you biggest worry, then you have nothing to worry about. So what if you hear a few War stories about how another Airline does it, or screws their pilots. I am sure the Qf guys are just as interested of your story.
What I can promise you, as I know a lot of the guys who are interested is that you will have a great time with anyone of them, and will find yourself definitley not drinking alone!
Also if anyone is going to win out of this it's the EK guys, more F/Os means more commands, more quickly for you guys!.
Look at the end of the day it's never a perfect situation, I would consider this to be very minor, it could be a lot worse, they could be opening a base here in Australia or elsewhere!, after all it is their train set and they will get pilots any way they can.
Join Date: Feb 2011
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That's not the way we do it in QF'. I reckon the most likely comment you will hear is: 'That's how you do it? F**k me. Why the hell didn't we do it that way in QF?
Accurate post TineeTim. Qf guys are not going to pollute(thanks AJ) the EK culture and a handful of guys certainly are not going to fix the problem of finding 700+ pilots.
Nunc est bibendum
Those awaiting redundancy or a package in QF may be surprised. At the moment our award goes with 'last on, first off' and the only thing needed is six months notice. Any package is going to be 6 months at S/O pay because that's what you'll be when they try to get rid of you.
Maybe AIPA can negotiate something better into EBA8, maybe they can't. Either way, QF are going to lose some of their good operators to a competitor.
Maybe AIPA can negotiate something better into EBA8, maybe they can't. Either way, QF are going to lose some of their good operators to a competitor.
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I think the only real definite i can take from this discussion is that we have finally put to bed the myth that Australian pilots will ever stand together to improve the industry. Not that there was ever any serious doubt.
It is an interesting aspect of the human condition how we can reverse engineer our morality to justify decisions we know will be controversial, but ones that we are going to make nontheless.
I wonder what QF pilots would be saying if they were staring down the barrell of a payrise due to lack of supply, only to find the government had approved a few hundred 457 visas to help QF through a difficult time.
I agree that a few QF drivers going to EK wont make a difference, but combine that with a few NZ guys a few years back, and who knows what else, then a little bit here and a little bit there contributes to relieving upward pressure on salaries.
One thing i would be concerned about is that if QF drivers do go in any numbers, thus arguably undermining EK drivers position to a small degree, then the gloves will come completely off if and when AJ decides to rebuild mainline in the J* image and starts looking for direct entry A380/787/330 pilots based in Australia on a crap contract.
I think sombody said it earlier, but this is a game changer, and has probably put a timeframe on the demise of mainline as it currently exists.
It is an interesting aspect of the human condition how we can reverse engineer our morality to justify decisions we know will be controversial, but ones that we are going to make nontheless.
I wonder what QF pilots would be saying if they were staring down the barrell of a payrise due to lack of supply, only to find the government had approved a few hundred 457 visas to help QF through a difficult time.
I agree that a few QF drivers going to EK wont make a difference, but combine that with a few NZ guys a few years back, and who knows what else, then a little bit here and a little bit there contributes to relieving upward pressure on salaries.
One thing i would be concerned about is that if QF drivers do go in any numbers, thus arguably undermining EK drivers position to a small degree, then the gloves will come completely off if and when AJ decides to rebuild mainline in the J* image and starts looking for direct entry A380/787/330 pilots based in Australia on a crap contract.
I think sombody said it earlier, but this is a game changer, and has probably put a timeframe on the demise of mainline as it currently exists.
Nunc est bibendum
The parallels are not consistent. Are the QF guys going to EK being paid less than any other EK driver (or any other pilot in Dubai)? No?
457 visas were being used here to pay pilots less than what was on offer at QF. They being offered for J* were paid a contract that had lesser terms and conditions than those on the J* EBA.
So by all means consider this the 'death' of mainline- I tend to agree- but to consider this as QF drivers 'undermining' EK terms and conditions is a distortion of significant proportions.
457 visas were being used here to pay pilots less than what was on offer at QF. They being offered for J* were paid a contract that had lesser terms and conditions than those on the J* EBA.
So by all means consider this the 'death' of mainline- I tend to agree- but to consider this as QF drivers 'undermining' EK terms and conditions is a distortion of significant proportions.
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Keg, redundancies wont be offered, it goes against Managements spin that no Qantas pilot has been made redundant since blah blah.
How can they justify redundancies when other parts of the Qantas group are desperate for pilots? You would think that any junior crew made redundant would have a good argument in front of FWA.
How can they justify redundancies when other parts of the Qantas group are desperate for pilots? You would think that any junior crew made redundant would have a good argument in front of FWA.
Nunc est bibendum
Which again is reason not to 'hold out' for the prospect of a package. If it comes at all it'll be 6 months at S/O pay... unless it improves under the next EBA.
6100, are you an Emirati? I would guess not, therefore I would assume (dangerous I know) that you have left your country of birth for an opportunity (money or rank) that you couldn't avail of at home. Your own national carrier is probably being eaten by the tax haven airlines (one of which I assume you work for) partly because they're using an arbitrage on taxation.
This is how you got your position. Don't sit there and hold everyone else responsible when in fact these airlines exist with the help of people like you; and possibly me. The lack of any intelligent government strategy from any country to deal with this situation is probably to do with deals regarding oil.
We're all pawns so get off the horse.
This is how you got your position. Don't sit there and hold everyone else responsible when in fact these airlines exist with the help of people like you; and possibly me. The lack of any intelligent government strategy from any country to deal with this situation is probably to do with deals regarding oil.
We're all pawns so get off the horse.
The Middle East is hell on earth. Don't subject your families to it unless you have to.
Actually, that is generally the catch-cry at all Middle Eastern airlines eventually. Don't come here unless you have to. The Arabs can't help themselves in the end.
Actually, that is generally the catch-cry at all Middle Eastern airlines eventually. Don't come here unless you have to. The Arabs can't help themselves in the end.
Join Date: May 2007
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How is all of this going to affect the captain/FO ratio? If 100+ F/O's go to EK, does that mean that QF will have to down-train captains to the right seat? If so, how much is that going to cost? Or perhaps they will promote S/O's to F/O's to cover the shortfall - still a cost. I imagine that the EBA will prevent anyone getting a pay cut if down-trained - or will it?
Perhaps this is an indication of future downsizing of the airline & they expect to loose a similar number of captains to either retirement or redundancy, therefore keeping the balance.
Perhaps this is an indication of future downsizing of the airline & they expect to loose a similar number of captains to either retirement or redundancy, therefore keeping the balance.
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there is alot more to consider here. If you join EK on a LWOP and decide to stay, what is your seniority date based on ? Its hardly fair to the guys who resign and join direct entry to have a joining date behind a QF LWOP guy. If you finish you 3 year term, do you then stay on the date of joining starting from the end of your 3 year contract??
If you return to QF, there has to be a job for you. I cant see how you can just displace someone junior to get your job back. Dont know the answer to any of these questions yet.
If you return to QF, there has to be a job for you. I cant see how you can just displace someone junior to get your job back. Dont know the answer to any of these questions yet.
Those who are comparing this situation to what Jetstar and Jet Connect have done to mainline are seriously deluded.
-The QF guys who go will be on the same contract as all the other EK guys.
-There will be no B scale.
-They are not slowing (or halting) the career progression of any current EK guys.
-They are not going to be direct entry captains jumping the queue. In fact, as many have stated, they will not be able to become captains at all so no EK guys will have their promotional prospects effected in any way.
To argue that they will drive down the contract conditions is also very hard to believe/understand. Did everyone of you current EK employees drive down the conditions of the guys there before you by your accepting of a job there? No? Then how is this different?
If the QF guys resigned and came outside LWOP how is this different?
And finally to the cries of, "how would you like it if the reverse happened to you?" Well it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. If every pilot in EK wants to apply for a job with Qantas and joins on the same EBA as us and at the back of the seniority queue then what's the problem??
-The QF guys who go will be on the same contract as all the other EK guys.
-There will be no B scale.
-They are not slowing (or halting) the career progression of any current EK guys.
-They are not going to be direct entry captains jumping the queue. In fact, as many have stated, they will not be able to become captains at all so no EK guys will have their promotional prospects effected in any way.
To argue that they will drive down the contract conditions is also very hard to believe/understand. Did everyone of you current EK employees drive down the conditions of the guys there before you by your accepting of a job there? No? Then how is this different?
If the QF guys resigned and came outside LWOP how is this different?
And finally to the cries of, "how would you like it if the reverse happened to you?" Well it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. If every pilot in EK wants to apply for a job with Qantas and joins on the same EBA as us and at the back of the seniority queue then what's the problem??
Join Date: Oct 2002
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...and last but not least...with QF guys going over there (because they are not prepared to work for third world conditions with the orange cancer here or in Singas) frees up all those vacancies for guys overseas (Emirates included) - who want to come back and get payed peanuts (and treated like ****e!) here! ITs really WIN WIN for all!
(How can I be so sarcastic)
(How can I be so sarcastic
)
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I dont work for EK any more, and whatever people do or dont do is unlikely to cause me any grief. I am also not judging anyone as each persons circumstance is different and each one must do what is right for them
To say that this situation is different is quite correct, just as every other situation is different. But not that different. I was merely putting forward the observation that it is very easy to rationalise a decision because the situation is "different". That doesnt change the fact that it will have an impact, positive or negative, depending on your view.
I'll wait to see the comments if J* advertise for DEC positions on the 787. I imagine that will be different also. I can already come up with a heap of reasons why that would be different, and why it would be good for me to take a DE 787 command. I'm pretty sure that others would see problems with that though.
Bottom line is, if it works for you then do it. Nobody is going to thank you for not going, but the flip side is that you will have to live with the stigma if it turns out to be an unpopular choice.
To say that this situation is different is quite correct, just as every other situation is different. But not that different. I was merely putting forward the observation that it is very easy to rationalise a decision because the situation is "different". That doesnt change the fact that it will have an impact, positive or negative, depending on your view.
I'll wait to see the comments if J* advertise for DEC positions on the 787. I imagine that will be different also. I can already come up with a heap of reasons why that would be different, and why it would be good for me to take a DE 787 command. I'm pretty sure that others would see problems with that though.
Bottom line is, if it works for you then do it. Nobody is going to thank you for not going, but the flip side is that you will have to live with the stigma if it turns out to be an unpopular choice.