BNE ATC Holding
Neville - your post belongs on Page 1 of this thread, either that or you havent read right through the thread. The consultants from EGKK have already visited and made some recommendations, but they also say it is an Apples and Oranges case.
Neville, I know there is a lot of holding for BN but I'm not sure how many days there are with 1hr holds in cavok.
There are also NOTAMS out for 60 mins traffic holding at certain time periods.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Once in extreme CAVOK the other light showers with a high overcast.
)IT'S
ABOUT
THE
RUNWAYS
STUPID (Not directed at you, cos you're more than likely not stupid
)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Running up that hill
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and the airport with the new Airport Link [tunnel] is in a position to deal with the pressure that will come with so many world leaders all arriving in quite a compressed window of time and then leaving in quite a compressed window of time as well."
Out of interest, did anyone else require start clearances for flights to Brisbane last night? I heard it was required in Townsville. I've seen it before when there have been significant delays due to storms etc., but it was a Tuesday night and there were only light showers around. The start of things to come - hour delays waiting for a start?
It doesn't make your landing time any later than it would have been anyway.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Airborne
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It doesn't make your landing time any later than it would have been anyway.
or to make a more direct question:
How does that work?
Last edited by HF3000; 11th Jul 2012 at 16:50.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: On a different Island
Age: 52
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How does that work?
I've also encountered a few grumpy sods ex CB who need to get a spin or two on the way to SY after taking a ground delay; **** does happen, slots get missed, go rounds, higher priority push-ins etc, your spot in the queue doesn't change but your landing time might...
ACFT ARRIVING BRISBANE START CLEARANCE REQUIRED
CTC 07 3866 3324
FROM THE FOLLOWING DEPARTURE POINTS:
MACKAY (YBMK), ROCKHAMPTON (YBRK), EMERALD
(YEML), GLADSTONE (YGLA), ROMA (YROM), WILLIAMTOWN (YWLM), THANGOOL (YTNG),
TAMWORTH (YSTW)
FROM 07 120614 TO 07 121000
CTC 07 3866 3324
FROM THE FOLLOWING DEPARTURE POINTS:
MACKAY (YBMK), ROCKHAMPTON (YBRK), EMERALD
(YEML), GLADSTONE (YGLA), ROMA (YROM), WILLIAMTOWN (YWLM), THANGOOL (YTNG),
TAMWORTH (YSTW)
FROM 07 120614 TO 07 121000
I'm looking forward to my BNE arrival tomorrow night even more - Friday nights typically being busier and the weather supposed to be worse!
Having attended the Queensland Regional Aviation Safety Forum today at the BNE ATS the only answer I can produce is that it is only going to get worse..... much worse.
BAC are blinkered that anyone who does not park in the carpark and buy a coffee or some other crap from the terminal does not count.
We are all understanding that another runway is needed.... apparently not BAC
ATS put forward their predictions about what is going to happen..... ooooohhh that looks like its going to be fun. NOT Major capacity crunch approaching.
BAC's answer to the capacity crunch is ban anything less than 50 seats, the mining industry representatives tried not to choke on that remark.
Their answer was anything else can PFO to the Goldy, Sunny Coast or Archy.... yeah right when usually 40%+ pax have BNE connections.
One AirService guy said that was fine but who is going to take care of movements to these other places....... yeah too hard basket that one
The fun part was the discussion about terminal space for the growing FIFO markets.....hahahaha
Lets build a terminal for aircraft 20T + and we will build another for <20T..... but I forgot we are going to blanket ban any aircraft less than 50 seats. Oh yeah forgot that detail
Another white elephant in the making.
The only real gem is that the solution to the 14 & 19 sim ops possibly a PRM kind of approach where 19 is tracked to land with 14 following 30+sec behind.
But 01 with 32 arrivals wont fly... pardon the pun
I think I have covered it with just about every smilie i could creatively use, its going to get worse by a big margin and the finger pointing is already underway
Thankfully our freshly renumbered favorite STARS at SMOKA, GC, BLAKA & MLY all have the hold now printed on the plate...... just in case you forgot
BAC are blinkered that anyone who does not park in the carpark and buy a coffee or some other crap from the terminal does not count.
We are all understanding that another runway is needed.... apparently not BAC
ATS put forward their predictions about what is going to happen..... ooooohhh that looks like its going to be fun. NOT
Major capacity crunch approaching.BAC's answer to the capacity crunch is ban anything less than 50 seats, the mining industry representatives tried not to choke on that remark.
Their answer was anything else can PFO to the Goldy, Sunny Coast or Archy.... yeah right when usually 40%+ pax have BNE connections.
One AirService guy said that was fine but who is going to take care of movements to these other places....... yeah too hard basket that one
The fun part was the discussion about terminal space for the growing FIFO markets.....hahahaha
Lets build a terminal for aircraft 20T + and we will build another for <20T..... but I forgot we are going to blanket ban any aircraft less than 50 seats. Oh yeah forgot that detail
Another white elephant in the making.The only real gem is that the solution to the 14 & 19 sim ops possibly a PRM kind of approach where 19 is tracked to land with 14 following 30+sec behind.
But 01 with 32 arrivals wont fly... pardon the pun
I think I have covered it with just about every smilie i could creatively use, its going to get worse by a big margin and the finger pointing is already underway
Thankfully our freshly renumbered favorite STARS at SMOKA, GC, BLAKA & MLY all have the hold now printed on the plate...... just in case you forgot
Last edited by TWOTBAGS; 12th Jul 2012 at 08:36.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Orstrailya
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aimpoint - Thursdays are normally the busiest night for BN.... not withstanding other factors such as weather etc.
Twotbags - 01/32 and 01/14 crops still happens now, in the right conditions i.e. cloud base, wind etc, but not at night. The holding times for evening traffic are generally significantly less if BN has been operating crops up until last light. 19/14 PRM style crops is a little way off yet and the benefits may not be as great as you hope. As you say, the 14 lander could be fairly close behind the 19 acft, but the next 19 lander has to be quite a bit further back to guard against a possible 14 go round. It does open up more departure spots though. The other problem is ATC workload monitoring this style of approach whilst dealing with the regular melee of various aircraft types departing through and crossing over the inbounds.
Pushing some BN traffic to YBAF isn't great either due to the effect AF arrivals/departures have at night or in IMC when BN is on R01 ILS.
Twotbags - 01/32 and 01/14 crops still happens now, in the right conditions i.e. cloud base, wind etc, but not at night. The holding times for evening traffic are generally significantly less if BN has been operating crops up until last light. 19/14 PRM style crops is a little way off yet and the benefits may not be as great as you hope. As you say, the 14 lander could be fairly close behind the 19 acft, but the next 19 lander has to be quite a bit further back to guard against a possible 14 go round. It does open up more departure spots though. The other problem is ATC workload monitoring this style of approach whilst dealing with the regular melee of various aircraft types departing through and crossing over the inbounds.
Pushing some BN traffic to YBAF isn't great either due to the effect AF arrivals/departures have at night or in IMC when BN is on R01 ILS.
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Blue Yonder
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps OT now, but was there an ATSB investigation into the incident that seems to have bought this issue to ahead:
The only relevant report I can find was between a Metro and a 717 back in 2005 (Investigation: 200504338 - Breakdown of Separation, Brisbane Airport, Qld).
Some all-star in a Cirrus doing a missed approach on 14 and having a close encounter of the Boeing kind with an aircraft on final for 19.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's simple, but ultimately self defeating economics. Airport owners want to spend their money on retail outlets, not runways. In fact, more runways means faster flow-through of people. This is bad. More congestion means more bored travelers wandering around the terminal (i.e shops), and it means peak periods last longer during the day. This is good. The fact that aeroplanes are burning $ in holding patterns is an airline scheduling issue, passengers will still come, and it's better to have the terminal constantly busy rather than suffer peaks and troughs.
Not sure if the long term consequences of this mentality e.g airline receivership,
have been fully considered though...
Not sure if the long term consequences of this mentality e.g airline receivership,
have been fully considered though...
18500 movements last month! Going to be interesting loosing 14/32 altogether in a month or so for construction of the new runway. For those posters earlier in the thread that suggested taking a look at Gatwick, aparantly thats been done, infact they came to Aus and said BN is at capacity. Thats what I heard anyway.