BNE ATC Holding
Guys I'm not questioning why you need to slow/speed us, or asking about the variables that affect the sequence, I'm just saying the timing often sucks.
If it's possible to provide any earlier notice of changes it would be greatly appreciated
As someone once said, "I'm not a f_ing hot air balloon!"
If it's possible to provide any earlier notice of changes it would be greatly appreciated
As someone once said, "I'm not a f_ing hot air balloon!"
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grrowler...not sure which direction you come into BN from normally however if its from the south, we are more often than not slowing traffic south of TW (ML / CB) or south of about PMQ (SY / WLM). In general terms, as soon as the sequence is set, we want you back at min speed. The less time we have you spinning around BLAKA or CG the better! Unfortunately as someone else said "a sequence is a dynamic thing" so there will be changes some days.
A bit more background - some raw traffic data was pulled about 6 months ago and the enroute sector immediately to the south of BN came up as the busiest in Australia. The sector immediately to the north of BN wasn't too far behind in second place. I would assume that there has been further traffic increases since then, especially for the northern guys. Factor in the significant increase in daily holding (now most of the morning and most of the evening some days!) and you have some very busy and hard-working controllers who do a great job with the limitations / restrictions that they have to work with. Unfortunately they do put up with complaints, questions about delays / NOTAMS and sometimes general rudeness which I would much rather see passed on the phone after shut-down. That said, most crews still seem happy to help with speed reductions / early descents etc and don't complain (on frequency at least!) which is great.
A bit more background - some raw traffic data was pulled about 6 months ago and the enroute sector immediately to the south of BN came up as the busiest in Australia. The sector immediately to the north of BN wasn't too far behind in second place. I would assume that there has been further traffic increases since then, especially for the northern guys. Factor in the significant increase in daily holding (now most of the morning and most of the evening some days!) and you have some very busy and hard-working controllers who do a great job with the limitations / restrictions that they have to work with. Unfortunately they do put up with complaints, questions about delays / NOTAMS and sometimes general rudeness which I would much rather see passed on the phone after shut-down. That said, most crews still seem happy to help with speed reductions / early descents etc and don't complain (on frequency at least!) which is great.
Growler, changes are usually given as soon as the need is identified. You're being sequenced with aircraft coming from a number of directions so as an individual controller I'm generally not aware of how the overall sequence is progressing. I'm usually just following what Maestro tells me you need to do.
Occasionally I miss a change in Maestro as I'm busy doing a stack of other tasks and you'll get a delay after TOPD.
Occasionally I miss a change in Maestro as I'm busy doing a stack of other tasks and you'll get a delay after TOPD.
So Grrowler, what exactly is your gripe? **** happens? Is there some conspiracy like a rimjockey alluded to that ATC don't tell you on purpose so they can file reports on you?
Sky gods indeed........
Sky gods indeed........
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slightly off topic but why are the taxiway closures broadcast on the atis? is it just arse-covering? it's in the notams, there's bloody cones and diggers all over them and what's more, if they're closed i doubt ground are going to send you down one!
Out of all the excuses & BS etc mentioned here I'd like to know why a certain airline Co whom shall remain nameless as their going down the toilet anyway where 6 nm behind us falling further back & we get min speed so they can overtake us & land first.Will be interesting how the spin doctors here explain that one !
Wmk2
Wmk2
Standard Visual Approaches
To the controllers out there, if you knew what the heavies would fly (domestic A330s and B767s) and how long they'd take for a visual approach would that help? What I'm talking is a bit like SDCs in reverse. Before some bright spark says it, I have flown a STAR or two. Essentially, if you could give a visual approach and EXPECT a standard 4 mile base and 4 or 5 mile final that could be known by both parties and that it would be flown like an RNAV-RNP giving you a constant profile (no cutting them in) for the drivers and a constant time for the controllers. Would this help?
That way more heavies may willingly accept a visual approach because they can plan for it (every unnecessary instrument approach is 3 mins and 300kg of fuel) and may facilitate more movements?
That way more heavies may willingly accept a visual approach because they can plan for it (every unnecessary instrument approach is 3 mins and 300kg of fuel) and may facilitate more movements?
Requesting speed reductions?
Does a holding instruction allow you to reduce speed, what if ATC don't include the phase "reduce speed, hold at ABC, expect to depart at time XX"
'PD' I understand where yr comin' from but from a common sense point of view (yes hard to have ATC understand that at times I says with tongue in cheek) with a Cavok drome ahead, little traffic about in the middle of the night & the rdr controllers would have been seeing this event for the past hour or so ( we ahead & getting further ahead) one has to wonder why said Co gets a LOT of preferential treatment.
Must be not what ya know but who hands over the most grog to the ATC'ers at Xmas!:-)
Wmk2
Must be not what ya know but who hands over the most grog to the ATC'ers at Xmas!:-)
Wmk2
P-Dubby - No, it isn't because it allows a greater flexibility and could be used for myriad different companies and planes. What I mean is if you say, "make standard COMPANY visual approach" and there was a corresponding STANDARD company visual approach for that particular aircraft from that direction that you didn't get to vary i.e. speed and height, you may find the heavies far more accepting of your requirements. Having flown various fleet types in my company, I can assure you there is a reticence to accept visual approaches on the fleets that don't often do them. Particularly, when ATC throw in extra variables it is often considered "too hard". Soft as you may think that is, it is the facts. Probably why you no longer give them as standard at the companies request.
What I'm suggesting is a more known quantity. Every visual approach starts at 3000' from the clearance. They all start at 10 miles to run without being varied. Every aircraft for that company flies them at a known speed/configuration - like a curved ILS flown visually. The pilots know what they're going to get and therefore, are more willing to accept them. You know what they are going to fly from your 10 mile feeder points and how long they will take. The Breakky Creek does this (with a shorter final than some would be happy with) and so to the one over Redcliffe (except the lack of height requirements and therefore known speed). What about from left downwind for Rwy19 or base for that matter. Local knowledge allows some of us to know that you'll be held to 5ooo' early in the morning for noise abatement when coming over the coast. What would happen if this was translated into written knowledge for the common operators? You would then know exactly what times to expect. No criticism, just trying to think of benefits for both sides.
What I'm suggesting is a more known quantity. Every visual approach starts at 3000' from the clearance. They all start at 10 miles to run without being varied. Every aircraft for that company flies them at a known speed/configuration - like a curved ILS flown visually. The pilots know what they're going to get and therefore, are more willing to accept them. You know what they are going to fly from your 10 mile feeder points and how long they will take. The Breakky Creek does this (with a shorter final than some would be happy with) and so to the one over Redcliffe (except the lack of height requirements and therefore known speed). What about from left downwind for Rwy19 or base for that matter. Local knowledge allows some of us to know that you'll be held to 5ooo' early in the morning for noise abatement when coming over the coast. What would happen if this was translated into written knowledge for the common operators? You would then know exactly what times to expect. No criticism, just trying to think of benefits for both sides.
I'm usually just following what Maestro tells me you need to do.
**** happens?
Taking up Maggot's point, the time has come when the whole of visual STARs should be in the database. It is ridiculous that hundreds of times a week, crews are tapping into the FMS made-up waypoints to construct an LNAV track for the aeroplane to follow (and manage the VNAV most efficiently) eg Smoka V. On the River Track, the Breakfast Creek waypoint isn't even defined.
NAP 2.1 (but I agree could be clearer).
Local knowledge allows some of us to know that you'll be held to 5ooo' early in the morning for noise abatement when coming over the coast. What would happen if this was translated into written knowledge for the common operators? You would then know exactly what times to expect.
'PD' I know yr trying to put all the little pieces that make up the nightmare task of being an ATC'er (yr welcome to that job !) into the puzzle here for us pleb drivers so we get a better understanding of how the 'system' works. My generic type statement here about being a fav Co may seem laughable to you but I have seen this a few times & to us plebs at the pointy end it does seem with a reasonable amount of certainty that one said Co gets in first. Seen it at the Hld point awaiting T/off sometimes & Syd.
As for the other scenario I am painting here there was no A/C slowing in front of us it was the opposite actually as mentioned we where asked to slow whilst the 'favored' A/C whom was well behind us & getting further back was allowed to slip past us to as usual get in first. The Vis comment was just adding to the picture no more.
Anyway it matters none there's zip any of us plebs can do other than speed up, slow down,turn this way turn that way cross here at this time cancel that etc etc etc to appease the scrabble board players down there in the twr
but our necks are getting a work out from shaking our heads at amazement from what we get from ATC.
I think 'Juliar' ought to watch the ATCers in action some day, she would soon realize that her stupid Carbon Tax rubbish savings goes out the window in just one day with Ozzy airspace antics!
Wmk2
As for the other scenario I am painting here there was no A/C slowing in front of us it was the opposite actually as mentioned we where asked to slow whilst the 'favored' A/C whom was well behind us & getting further back was allowed to slip past us to as usual get in first. The Vis comment was just adding to the picture no more.
Anyway it matters none there's zip any of us plebs can do other than speed up, slow down,turn this way turn that way cross here at this time cancel that etc etc etc to appease the scrabble board players down there in the twr
but our necks are getting a work out from shaking our heads at amazement from what we get from ATC.I think 'Juliar' ought to watch the ATCers in action some day, she would soon realize that her stupid Carbon Tax rubbish savings goes out the window in just one day with Ozzy airspace antics!
Wmk2
Thanks 'PD' I know your trying to get the message across to us uneducated
I won't dwell on it too much as I said we plebs can't do zip about it anyway but just go along for the ride ;-)
Wmk2
P.s.....my story was not into Brissy actually but it's all tied up with the same weegee board anyway:-):-)
I won't dwell on it too much as I said we plebs can't do zip about it anyway but just go along for the ride ;-)
Wmk2
P.s.....my story was not into Brissy actually but it's all tied up with the same weegee board anyway:-):-)
Wally, ATCs are fundamentally lazy. We don't do things the hard way if we have a choice and running a sequence in other than the natural order is hard, so why would we bother? I'll back whoever I think will win.
growler, the point is there are a myriad of reasons why it can change. In Melbourne MED1 traffic overflying for a hospital or into Essendon need to be accommodated often at short notice. The flow puts a block in where he thinks it's needed but it can change by several minutes so things get shuffled a bit.
Aircraft fail to meet their times and need adjusting. The flow might tweak the sequence to simplify things inside 30 miles.
A close in departure occurs that would naturally arrive before you.
growler, the point is there are a myriad of reasons why it can change. In Melbourne MED1 traffic overflying for a hospital or into Essendon need to be accommodated often at short notice. The flow puts a block in where he thinks it's needed but it can change by several minutes so things get shuffled a bit.
Aircraft fail to meet their times and need adjusting. The flow might tweak the sequence to simplify things inside 30 miles.
A close in departure occurs that would naturally arrive before you.
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it uses your Radar Plot, Flight Plan TAS, known system winds, etc etc.
We do not flight plan a TAS. We flight plan a Mach No.
ATC chooses to convert this to a TAS and does not take into account that you may be cruising at a different flight level (for whatever reason). Cruising at a different flight level will change your TAS considerably.
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...as it will take the real GS.
I have had many a 'battle' with the flow changing the natural order (in Maestro) to better suit the TMA complexity or picking a winner who was number two; it was often easier to make the sequence work the way the flow wanted rather than applying 'natural justice' in every circumstance... Sometimes a phone call to the flow didn't help at all, sometimes it did!!!
What is slower and behind, at TOD, may not naturally be that way at the threshold, so being in front at TOD can mean naught; you can be number two and be in front (for now)... Hence the a bit of speed and turning makes it work better, i.e. separate as well as sequence...
I had a very grumpy individual complain about being made number two (number 25 in reality) When I turned him less than number one, who was actually number 24... I had to lose more with number 24 than number 25... I couldn't get the point across that when I started vectoring he was 25NM behind and now he was 15NM behind... There was no faith in the message as I turned him to "close" him up... point being I turn the one ahead harder...
As for visuals vs instruments to maximize runway capacity, it's a furphy, look at the worlds busiest high capacity aerodromes, very few 'visuals' and they still get the job done without missing slots.
Where the holding and delays are done needs to be examined again, on the ground is the most 'efficient' (in terms of costs and environmental impact) way, but getting a system that actually delivers in terms of compliance and not missing slots is the hard part and it still doesn't cater for 'anomalies'. Many airports absorb the majority of the delays low and close to the runway but get near perfect CDA from the holding point, all Australian airports push it out far and high and few have a chance of CDA, what is the most efficient/cost effective/environmental friendly way?
With better CDM, maybe low and close is more effective as 'bulk delays' (general holding), excluding PH and BN are becoming rarer.
The eternal disagreements will never cease with respect to sequencing and it will never be clear to both pilots or ATC why each side why certain things happen. While no Brisbane specific, I will share my experience from a once off.
I was on a cockpit famil earlier in the year on an A330 into a middle eastern airport. We arrived right at the start of the evening busy period. When we checked in, the airspace infront of us looked empty as the frequency somewhat quiet. I even commented to the crew that it looked like we would get no delays. About a minute later the obviously shaky voice of a guy I work with every day pulled our speed, cut our descent off, turned us, descended us hard and put us into the hold. We then hit the hold and were taken long outbound and inflicted with more vectors and intermediate levels and rapid descents. The captain was on the speed brake the whole time to get the thing down quickly. From where I sat I could not see or hear anything to explain what was going on but knowing what the various instructions achieved had a very good idea of what was going on but to the crew, it was all a mystery.
I saw the ATC the next day and asked him if he remembered what was going on and he filled me in on the beating he was taking which made complete sense given the amount of Air Traffic COntrol inflicted upon us but to me at the time in the cockpit it just appeared as we were getting an old fashioned dicking around.
I guess the moral of the story is that sequencing is not done for fun and from an ATC perspective, we want you out of our airspace ASAP but I can see how it can appear otherwise from the seats up in the sky.
When everything is going well, we(pilots and ATC) have a pretty simple job. Unfortunately our priorities during certain phases of flight contradict each other.
I was on a cockpit famil earlier in the year on an A330 into a middle eastern airport. We arrived right at the start of the evening busy period. When we checked in, the airspace infront of us looked empty as the frequency somewhat quiet. I even commented to the crew that it looked like we would get no delays. About a minute later the obviously shaky voice of a guy I work with every day pulled our speed, cut our descent off, turned us, descended us hard and put us into the hold. We then hit the hold and were taken long outbound and inflicted with more vectors and intermediate levels and rapid descents. The captain was on the speed brake the whole time to get the thing down quickly. From where I sat I could not see or hear anything to explain what was going on but knowing what the various instructions achieved had a very good idea of what was going on but to the crew, it was all a mystery.
I saw the ATC the next day and asked him if he remembered what was going on and he filled me in on the beating he was taking which made complete sense given the amount of Air Traffic COntrol inflicted upon us but to me at the time in the cockpit it just appeared as we were getting an old fashioned dicking around.
I guess the moral of the story is that sequencing is not done for fun and from an ATC perspective, we want you out of our airspace ASAP but I can see how it can appear otherwise from the seats up in the sky.
When everything is going well, we(pilots and ATC) have a pretty simple job. Unfortunately our priorities during certain phases of flight contradict each other.