Merged: Proposed QF Group Pilot Seniority
One has to remember the senior management have nothing when it comes to a recovery from where qantas now stands. Last week, the CEO made some pre emptive comments to perhaps 'soften' the market for what lay ahead. All signs aren't good. As has previously been stated, market share reducing, profits reducing and jetstar unable to save the day. The strategy endorsed by the board has brought these consequences.
Interestingly, with the first shots fired in the propaganda war, qantas wants to try and make this out to be a big push by the pilots for a substantial pay rise. WTF? This would have to be the furtherest from the truth, with job security, job security and job security being the number 1,2, and 3 priorities.
Qantas' initial replies to the breakdown in negotiations seems to indicate a very large lack of understanding of the core issue at hand. At first thought, i believed that this couldn't posssibly be their reply, but on second thoughts it's obvious that they have had no real understanding when it comes to working with qantas and it's people to create, what should be the best airline in the world.
Instead they turn the problem into a media circus and have a shot at their pilots in a step to deflect attention away from the real destruction of the business that they have caused.
One would hope this matter could be resolved sooner rather than later but unfortunately I don't think this will happen.
Fed sec, thanks for your input, will be interested to hear some of your views tomorrow.
Now, back to the propaganda.
Interestingly, with the first shots fired in the propaganda war, qantas wants to try and make this out to be a big push by the pilots for a substantial pay rise. WTF? This would have to be the furtherest from the truth, with job security, job security and job security being the number 1,2, and 3 priorities.
Qantas' initial replies to the breakdown in negotiations seems to indicate a very large lack of understanding of the core issue at hand. At first thought, i believed that this couldn't posssibly be their reply, but on second thoughts it's obvious that they have had no real understanding when it comes to working with qantas and it's people to create, what should be the best airline in the world.
Instead they turn the problem into a media circus and have a shot at their pilots in a step to deflect attention away from the real destruction of the business that they have caused.
One would hope this matter could be resolved sooner rather than later but unfortunately I don't think this will happen.
Fed sec, thanks for your input, will be interested to hear some of your views tomorrow.
Now, back to the propaganda.
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A Q for all concerned
Is it time to band together with ALL QF unions
having one voice to bring to the publics attention the mismanagement and bad decision made/continue to be made by the board/CEO etc.
One voice to run the PR machine
having one voice to bring to the publics attention the mismanagement and bad decision made/continue to be made by the board/CEO etc.One voice to run the PR machine
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Smoc,
Are you saying that westerners are joining CX HKG based direct entry WITHOUT the housing allowance?
How on earth could newbie SO afford to live?
Are you saying that westerners are joining CX HKG based direct entry WITHOUT the housing allowance?
How on earth could newbie SO afford to live?
Aviation, it ain't what it used to be!
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The Truth is Gathering Momentum
Qantas is "on the brink" as the airline's management "trashes its brand" and seeks to "smash its pilots", the pilots' union claimed today as the spectre of strike action loomed.
As the industrial climate at the airline heats up, the pilots' union president said the situation was a "tragedy", likening it to the demise of Ansett.
The union has said it is prepared to limit wage claims for long-haul mainline pilots to 2.5 per cent a year in return for job guarantees with Qantas.
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Qantas rejected the union's claims, saying the pay rise sought was well above 2.5 per cent and that the only way job security was to ensure the airline was competitive and profitable.
"The combined effect of the wage claim and other issues submitted by the union represents a cost increase to Qantas of approximately 26 per cent over three years, equivalent to an 8.15 per cent increase year on year," a spokesman said.
"The international business is not sustainable in its current form and change is imperative for it to survive," he said.
But the union claimed the current course would send the airline to a similar fate to Ansett and Australian Airlines.
"We are witnessing the demise of an icon through mismanagement," said Australian and International Pilots Association president Barry Jackson.
"This is not the first time some of the Qantas managers have been through this. Many were centrally involved in the destruction of Ansett and Australian Airlines and back then, as they are today, the same industrial consultants are advising them.
"If Qantas disappears they will have wiped out all of the founding entities in Australian aviation," Mr Jackson said.
If there's one element of agreement between the union and the airline it's the perilous state of Qantas' international operations.
Last week, the airline's chief executive Alan Joyce warned unless the airline innovated, the financial future of Qantas' international operations was at risk.
"If we continue on our current path, there will be a real question mark over the viability of Qantas International," Mr Joyce said, foreshadowing the rough industrial landscape ahead.
"This year we will be negotiating a number of major industrial agreements. Like many Australian companies we are looking at a tightening skills market and this is putting pressure on many industrial frameworks," Mr Joyce said.
"Our aim will be to bring our people with us as we continue to innovate and improve our business."
But the union boss accused "hardline" Qantas management of risking "inciting a catastrophe".
"We have been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, 'no matter how low you go, we will always look for someone cheaper'," Mr Jackson said.
He cited the offshoring of crew in JetConnect (Qantas' operation based in New Zealand) as a "sham" and warned the airline intends to set up more offshore bases.
"After the years of neglect and asset stripping of mainline our members have endured, we not only have to give up our entitlements, but also our jobs to boot," Mr Jackson said.
"Qantas pilots are the custodians of public safety and the true inheritors of the airlines iconic status. Job security provisions are common in many industrial agreements and should not be an excuse for inciting a catastrophe." he said.
Union meetings with pilots on Friday in Sydney and Monday in Melbourne will gauge support for future industrial action.
"It probably won't happen anytime soon but we're taking it to the members over the next day or two," Mr Jackson said.
The Qantas spokesman said the threat of industrial action was counterproductive and a "destructive diversion from the real task at hand".
"Qantas remains committed to working with pilots on initiatives to secure the long-term future of the international business," the airline's spokesman said.
As the industrial climate at the airline heats up, the pilots' union president said the situation was a "tragedy", likening it to the demise of Ansett.
The union has said it is prepared to limit wage claims for long-haul mainline pilots to 2.5 per cent a year in return for job guarantees with Qantas.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Qantas rejected the union's claims, saying the pay rise sought was well above 2.5 per cent and that the only way job security was to ensure the airline was competitive and profitable.
"The combined effect of the wage claim and other issues submitted by the union represents a cost increase to Qantas of approximately 26 per cent over three years, equivalent to an 8.15 per cent increase year on year," a spokesman said.
"The international business is not sustainable in its current form and change is imperative for it to survive," he said.
But the union claimed the current course would send the airline to a similar fate to Ansett and Australian Airlines.
"We are witnessing the demise of an icon through mismanagement," said Australian and International Pilots Association president Barry Jackson.
"This is not the first time some of the Qantas managers have been through this. Many were centrally involved in the destruction of Ansett and Australian Airlines and back then, as they are today, the same industrial consultants are advising them.
"If Qantas disappears they will have wiped out all of the founding entities in Australian aviation," Mr Jackson said.
If there's one element of agreement between the union and the airline it's the perilous state of Qantas' international operations.
Last week, the airline's chief executive Alan Joyce warned unless the airline innovated, the financial future of Qantas' international operations was at risk.
"If we continue on our current path, there will be a real question mark over the viability of Qantas International," Mr Joyce said, foreshadowing the rough industrial landscape ahead.
"This year we will be negotiating a number of major industrial agreements. Like many Australian companies we are looking at a tightening skills market and this is putting pressure on many industrial frameworks," Mr Joyce said.
"Our aim will be to bring our people with us as we continue to innovate and improve our business."
But the union boss accused "hardline" Qantas management of risking "inciting a catastrophe".
"We have been informed that regardless of any efficiencies we are willing to provide, no formal job security provision will ever be given. In other words, 'no matter how low you go, we will always look for someone cheaper'," Mr Jackson said.
He cited the offshoring of crew in JetConnect (Qantas' operation based in New Zealand) as a "sham" and warned the airline intends to set up more offshore bases.
"After the years of neglect and asset stripping of mainline our members have endured, we not only have to give up our entitlements, but also our jobs to boot," Mr Jackson said.
"Qantas pilots are the custodians of public safety and the true inheritors of the airlines iconic status. Job security provisions are common in many industrial agreements and should not be an excuse for inciting a catastrophe." he said.
Union meetings with pilots on Friday in Sydney and Monday in Melbourne will gauge support for future industrial action.
"It probably won't happen anytime soon but we're taking it to the members over the next day or two," Mr Jackson said.
The Qantas spokesman said the threat of industrial action was counterproductive and a "destructive diversion from the real task at hand".
"Qantas remains committed to working with pilots on initiatives to secure the long-term future of the international business," the airline's spokesman said.
Last edited by Captain.Que; 10th Feb 2011 at 02:23.
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By Captainrats
I am by nature a conservative person.Not a radical by any definition of the word.....but....
It is time for all Qantas employees to say....enough is enough.How that is to be done I'm not sure.However a good place to start would a meeting of all union heads and from that, a meeting with Joyce and Clifford.Proceed from there depending on the response.It has been said before in other forums and for other reasons...but....Ladies and Gentlemen of Qantas "it is time"
Seize the day.
Post 147 of the "Qantas a Business in Decline "Thread
It is time for all Qantas employees to say....enough is enough.How that is to be done I'm not sure.However a good place to start would a meeting of all union heads and from that, a meeting with Joyce and Clifford.Proceed from there depending on the response.It has been said before in other forums and for other reasons...but....Ladies and Gentlemen of Qantas "it is time"
Seize the day.
Post 147 of the "Qantas a Business in Decline "Thread
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The Killing of Australian Aviation
Ben Sandilands
The rhetoric in the Qantas pilots dispute today is more bitter than anything heard in airline circles since the infamous pilot strike of 1989.
But it is not otherwise similar to that brawl, which provoked the strongest anti-union reaction from a Labor government since Ben Chifley used troops to break a coal miners strike in July 1949.
Instead, this brawl, whether it leads to a Qantas pilot strike or not, is one that is set to force Canberra to deal with the “I-now-call-Singapore-home” effect in which Qantas is shifting its flying and its resources offshore, in contravention of the purpose of the Qantas Sale Act, and preparing to import foreign pilots to undercut Australian pilot pay.
The business plan of the current Qantas management, to deAustralianise Qantas, and continue to sacrifice “costly” legacy flight and maintenance arrangements through outsourcing , is something the Gillard government and Abbott opposition haven’t been prepared to contemplate.
But in this sense, that of forcing itself into the political arena, it is an incredibly risky dispute for Qantas and the pilots to engage in.
Both sides know this. They have their lobbyists on the ground in Canberra at this moment.
As far as strike action goes, even if there is an overwhelming vote for protected action on the floor at off-duty pilot meetings tomorrow and on Monday, a formal ballot will be required of all pilots, and any consequent disruption to Qantas flights would be weeks away. (Easter sounds good.)
The reality for Qantas has already been signalled by CEO Alan Joyce. The international business is unsustainable, and in need of serious investment. Less clearly signalled was the culpability of his management in further running the product up against the wall by failing to correct (so far) the disastrous fleet planning errors by his predecessors, and removing the engine shop that actually kept the aged Rolls-Royce engines reliable on its clapped out 747 fleet, followed by a cluster of failures that has damaged customer confidence in the carrier.
As for the world headline-grabbing A380 incident, Qantas under Joyce has learnt nothing about avoiding self harm, embracing a power-by-the-hour deal for those Rolls-Royce engines in which it found itself left ignorant of issues that were known to the manufacturer.
Internationally, Qantas is being destroyed by better product being flown more directly to more destinations, and has tried to find an answer across its overseas and domestic networks by transferring assets to a Jetstar product that its higher-yielding customers detest.
These management failings give the pilots nowhere to go other than to take their skills and experience to Emirates, Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, all of whom are carving up Qantas up in terms of product and schedule.
At yesterday’s meetings between the Australian and International Pilots Association and Qantas management, including Oldmeadow Consulting ((a firm associated in the union’s mind with the supplying of strike breakers) both sides dug in deeply.
Neither side agreed on how much a proposed pilot pay and productivity deal from the association would cost, and the key point was that the company refused point blank to contemplate any deal which wrote in job security.
This morning Qantas had not made any further comment on the dispute.
However, the association hardened its language, with a statement headed “Tragedy looms for Qantas as hard line management trashes its brand, seeks to smash its pilots”.
It said:
Qantas is on the brink this morning as a questionable management team shows its contempt for its workforce by refusing to negotiate job security in return for improved flexibility and productivity.
President of the Australian and International Pilots Association Barry Jackson said the situation was a tragedy, with management seemingly eager to destroy its relationship with loyal workers.
“We are witnessing the demise of an icon through mismanagement. This is not the first time some of the Qantas managers have been through this. Many were centrally involved in the destruction of Ansett and Australian Airlines and back then, as they are today, the same industrial consultants are advising them. If Qantas disappears they will have wiped out all of the founding entities in Australian aviation.
“This dispute is about jobs and whether there will be a recognisable aviation industry based in Australia in the future.”
Mr Jackson said that the degradation of Qantas mainline has not stopped at the first subsidiary.
“Jetstar is now being undercut and off-shored at every opportunity, with the imminent formation of more off-shore bases proudly announced by Mr Joyce at recent company roadshows.”
The rhetoric in the Qantas pilots dispute today is more bitter than anything heard in airline circles since the infamous pilot strike of 1989.
But it is not otherwise similar to that brawl, which provoked the strongest anti-union reaction from a Labor government since Ben Chifley used troops to break a coal miners strike in July 1949.
Instead, this brawl, whether it leads to a Qantas pilot strike or not, is one that is set to force Canberra to deal with the “I-now-call-Singapore-home” effect in which Qantas is shifting its flying and its resources offshore, in contravention of the purpose of the Qantas Sale Act, and preparing to import foreign pilots to undercut Australian pilot pay.
The business plan of the current Qantas management, to deAustralianise Qantas, and continue to sacrifice “costly” legacy flight and maintenance arrangements through outsourcing , is something the Gillard government and Abbott opposition haven’t been prepared to contemplate.
But in this sense, that of forcing itself into the political arena, it is an incredibly risky dispute for Qantas and the pilots to engage in.
Both sides know this. They have their lobbyists on the ground in Canberra at this moment.
As far as strike action goes, even if there is an overwhelming vote for protected action on the floor at off-duty pilot meetings tomorrow and on Monday, a formal ballot will be required of all pilots, and any consequent disruption to Qantas flights would be weeks away. (Easter sounds good.)
The reality for Qantas has already been signalled by CEO Alan Joyce. The international business is unsustainable, and in need of serious investment. Less clearly signalled was the culpability of his management in further running the product up against the wall by failing to correct (so far) the disastrous fleet planning errors by his predecessors, and removing the engine shop that actually kept the aged Rolls-Royce engines reliable on its clapped out 747 fleet, followed by a cluster of failures that has damaged customer confidence in the carrier.
As for the world headline-grabbing A380 incident, Qantas under Joyce has learnt nothing about avoiding self harm, embracing a power-by-the-hour deal for those Rolls-Royce engines in which it found itself left ignorant of issues that were known to the manufacturer.
Internationally, Qantas is being destroyed by better product being flown more directly to more destinations, and has tried to find an answer across its overseas and domestic networks by transferring assets to a Jetstar product that its higher-yielding customers detest.
These management failings give the pilots nowhere to go other than to take their skills and experience to Emirates, Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, all of whom are carving up Qantas up in terms of product and schedule.
At yesterday’s meetings between the Australian and International Pilots Association and Qantas management, including Oldmeadow Consulting ((a firm associated in the union’s mind with the supplying of strike breakers) both sides dug in deeply.
Neither side agreed on how much a proposed pilot pay and productivity deal from the association would cost, and the key point was that the company refused point blank to contemplate any deal which wrote in job security.
This morning Qantas had not made any further comment on the dispute.
However, the association hardened its language, with a statement headed “Tragedy looms for Qantas as hard line management trashes its brand, seeks to smash its pilots”.
It said:
Qantas is on the brink this morning as a questionable management team shows its contempt for its workforce by refusing to negotiate job security in return for improved flexibility and productivity.
President of the Australian and International Pilots Association Barry Jackson said the situation was a tragedy, with management seemingly eager to destroy its relationship with loyal workers.
“We are witnessing the demise of an icon through mismanagement. This is not the first time some of the Qantas managers have been through this. Many were centrally involved in the destruction of Ansett and Australian Airlines and back then, as they are today, the same industrial consultants are advising them. If Qantas disappears they will have wiped out all of the founding entities in Australian aviation.
“This dispute is about jobs and whether there will be a recognisable aviation industry based in Australia in the future.”
Mr Jackson said that the degradation of Qantas mainline has not stopped at the first subsidiary.
“Jetstar is now being undercut and off-shored at every opportunity, with the imminent formation of more off-shore bases proudly announced by Mr Joyce at recent company roadshows.”
Passion, dedication, loyalty
If you don't like the way Qantas does business I suggest you use your democratic right to move elsewhere.....
But the majority of staff, pilots in particular, are immensely loyal to the Qantas brand as opposed to the Qantas management.
Unfortunately the upper echelons of the organisation are more interested in promoting Jetstar and other entities. If they were so keen to promote the future of Qantas as a whole (including Jetstar) then John Borghetti would now be CEO, not Alan Joyce.
Seems to me the only thing that has saved Qantas form some VERY big bills recently is the SKILL of the pilots.
And the Qantas Board thinks they can save more money for their ever increasing salary by further eroding the Pilots conditions and job security.
Imagine how much money they might have for their salary if they weren't so busy paying fines for fixing the cargo market .... but they weren't responsible for that were they......
And the Qantas Board thinks they can save more money for their ever increasing salary by further eroding the Pilots conditions and job security.
Imagine how much money they might have for their salary if they weren't so busy paying fines for fixing the cargo market .... but they weren't responsible for that were they......
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Jobs for Life
It's about time the folk at Qantas accepted the fact that there is no longer the concept of a "job for life".
Many of us have not had job security for years yet we still manage to live happy and fulfilled lives.
Get over it.
Many of us have not had job security for years yet we still manage to live happy and fulfilled lives.
Get over it.
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Will the Jetstar crew stand up and support the mainline pilots (say, in the event that during some kind of action, a 'Jetstar charter' is used to crew a mainline service)?
Agree, also looking forward to hearing your input Steve.
As far as Jetconnect/the new freight operation is concerned, im not 100% sure if mainline trains them, but if so, why don't the mainline trainers just say 'i resign from training.......'
Agree, also looking forward to hearing your input Steve.
As far as Jetconnect/the new freight operation is concerned, im not 100% sure if mainline trains them, but if so, why don't the mainline trainers just say 'i resign from training.......'
Will the Jetstar crew stand up and support the mainline pilots (say, in the event that during some kind of action, a 'Jetstar charter' is used to crew a mainline service)?
That would be a form of unprotected industrial action wouldn't it?
It's about time the folk at Qantas accepted the fact that there is no longer the concept of a "job for life". Many of us have not had job security for years yet we still manage to live happy and fulfilled lives. Get over it.
The management's idea of a good airline will be Australian registered aircraft with crews flying in from all over Asia and the Pacific to crew them for a bowl of rice and a couple of days in a cheap hotel.
It is very early days in these negotiations, and AJ and his mates are well aware the outcome of these negotiations will have a great affect on the other EBA's in the Qantas group. The fact that he can't give a loyal group of employees any type of employement guarantee basically shows the companies intentions of what they intend to do.
For those of you who think this is a Qantas mainline long haul issue, think again. Every airline executive and consultant in the region will see how this is played out and use it as a weapon against T&C's, remember that Qantas conditions are regarded as the benchmark in Australia, and if they reduce, so will yours!
Personally i think this is the start of a big confrontation, and i don't think AJ and his mates at Oldmeadow realise the amount of angst or even the motivation of the employees in Qantas. Qantas employees don't see this as a pay issue any more, this is about saving THEIR careers and more importantly THEIR airline.
Maybe management has finally bitten of more than they can chew!
We can only hope they choke on it!
For those of you who think this is a Qantas mainline long haul issue, think again. Every airline executive and consultant in the region will see how this is played out and use it as a weapon against T&C's, remember that Qantas conditions are regarded as the benchmark in Australia, and if they reduce, so will yours!
Personally i think this is the start of a big confrontation, and i don't think AJ and his mates at Oldmeadow realise the amount of angst or even the motivation of the employees in Qantas. Qantas employees don't see this as a pay issue any more, this is about saving THEIR careers and more importantly THEIR airline.
Maybe management has finally bitten of more than they can chew!
We can only hope they choke on it!
This should have happened a few EBA's ago. Now it's going to be a big sh!t fight. One that has the company's future at stake. Dixon had no clue how badly QF would be hit during the Engineers action, maybe this time the costing department might think twice before allowing industrial action to go on and on.
For those that don't understand the Jobs security issue, my take is that if they wanna out source flying that Mainline does now, then The Pilots wants a clause that says it must be on the same T & C's that exist in the Mainline EBA. Effectively cutting off the cost mechanism that is causing the removal of Flying from Mainline pilots to other entities.
It seems crazy to have Pilots on assigned leave, pilots on flexi lines, pilots forced to take LSL, and crew on Blank lines doing nothing while QF repaints an A330 and sends it to somewhere QF used to go and recruiting pilots into it's subsidiary to fly the route.
If they sat down and worked through the issues everyone could get a lash at the expansion, nobody needs to be sitting around waiting to be retrenched and Everyones T & C's could be improved
For those that don't understand the Jobs security issue, my take is that if they wanna out source flying that Mainline does now, then The Pilots wants a clause that says it must be on the same T & C's that exist in the Mainline EBA. Effectively cutting off the cost mechanism that is causing the removal of Flying from Mainline pilots to other entities.
It seems crazy to have Pilots on assigned leave, pilots on flexi lines, pilots forced to take LSL, and crew on Blank lines doing nothing while QF repaints an A330 and sends it to somewhere QF used to go and recruiting pilots into it's subsidiary to fly the route.
If they sat down and worked through the issues everyone could get a lash at the expansion, nobody needs to be sitting around waiting to be retrenched and Everyones T & C's could be improved
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How much is Qantas (mis)management prepared to spend on this fight? How many millions are they spending with consultants, Wirthless PR, lawyers?? How much income will be lost as a result of lost bookings, lack of confidence in the brand?
Just remember who has been saving Qantas' skin for the last few years with all these management induced near disasters.
CEO's & airline executives can be replaced by better cheaper people tomorrow. You cannot replace millions of hours of highly trained pilots overnight & remain safe. (1989 they tried it, it was not safe & it cost more in the long run)
An airline that is not safe is gone tomorrow.
Just remember who has been saving Qantas' skin for the last few years with all these management induced near disasters.
CEO's & airline executives can be replaced by better cheaper people tomorrow. You cannot replace millions of hours of highly trained pilots overnight & remain safe. (1989 they tried it, it was not safe & it cost more in the long run)
An airline that is not safe is gone tomorrow.