Air NZ Approach Briefing
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The solution is to do it paid, time at home getting paid, even better as previously stated do it while on duty and get paid twice for the same time 
Hopefully your internal IT department make accessing the course so hard from home you get paid and don't have to do it until next year
As for doing out of the goodness of your heart......
don't think so.
Hopefully your internal IT department make accessing the course so hard from home you get paid and don't have to do it until next year
As for doing out of the goodness of your heart......
don't think so.
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Thanks for the supportive comments from Bongo and Red, even if the latter's were a little robust.
Why non-Air NZ pilots would want to contribute to this thread I have no idea. If we had a private thread it would be there.
Down here in Kiwi-Land we like to spend our days off with our wives & kids & friends - not drinking beer or coffee staring at a computer screen for hours on end. As for the flyers with 'The Big Boys" (OooohhhhHHH), the Kiwis you fly with either couldn't get a job with Air NZ or left for greener pastures when they realised how slow promotion is, wages low and management trying it on. No different from Fragrant Harbour or the sand-pit except they are better paid.
My agenda? Get some discussion going. Here in Northern Branch we've had one meeting called in I don't know how many years to discuss matters like this. There's a lot of talk on the line, even the ANZPS pilots are p--d off. I'm also trying to get ALPA to do something before it's too late. This is an assault on our conditions and unless we nip this in the bud there's more to come. ALPA doesn't seem to appreciate that. Air NZ pilots be warned!
For the record, I am not a member of the Air NZ Council.
Why non-Air NZ pilots would want to contribute to this thread I have no idea. If we had a private thread it would be there.
Down here in Kiwi-Land we like to spend our days off with our wives & kids & friends - not drinking beer or coffee staring at a computer screen for hours on end. As for the flyers with 'The Big Boys" (OooohhhhHHH)
, the Kiwis you fly with either couldn't get a job with Air NZ or left for greener pastures when they realised how slow promotion is, wages low and management trying it on. No different from Fragrant Harbour or the sand-pit except they are better paid.My agenda? Get some discussion going. Here in Northern Branch we've had one meeting called in I don't know how many years to discuss matters like this. There's a lot of talk on the line, even the ANZPS pilots are p--d off. I'm also trying to get ALPA to do something before it's too late. This is an assault on our conditions and unless we nip this in the bud there's more to come. ALPA doesn't seem to appreciate that. Air NZ pilots be warned!
For the record, I am not a member of the Air NZ Council.
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Do the words "Concessionary Slide" mean any thing to you?
We stopped one of those a quarter of a century or more ago. We've been experiencing another for the last 10 or so years, or haven't you noticed?
I always liked what a former admin head used to say when he was in the chair. "Going on strike isn't compulsory - looking like you're willing to is!"
Some of us have forgotten that but I certainly haven't. What he meant, I think, was you always have to have the company afraid of what you may do. It appears that they no longer are. It is now getting too late for the ALPA to do anything effective. Bend over boys - here comes the pineapple!
Peeled or unpeeled sir?
We stopped one of those a quarter of a century or more ago. We've been experiencing another for the last 10 or so years, or haven't you noticed?
I always liked what a former admin head used to say when he was in the chair. "Going on strike isn't compulsory - looking like you're willing to is!"
Some of us have forgotten that but I certainly haven't. What he meant, I think, was you always have to have the company afraid of what you may do. It appears that they no longer are. It is now getting too late for the ALPA to do anything effective. Bend over boys - here comes the pineapple!
Peeled or unpeeled sir?
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Originally Posted by alpapilot
Why non-Air NZ pilots would want to contribute to this thread I have no idea.
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I reckon its better to use ALPA funds to maintain employment conditions than on overseas fact finding missions.
On the subject of those outside ANZ would you be referring to members who buy their way into low cost carriers offering poor terms and conditions then ask ALPA to expend resources getting those conditions improved.
Mutual support goes both ways.
On the subject of those outside ANZ would you be referring to members who buy their way into low cost carriers offering poor terms and conditions then ask ALPA to expend resources getting those conditions improved.
Mutual support goes both ways.
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Why non-Air NZ pilots would want to contribute to this thread I have no idea.
Why would non-Air NZ folk want to contribute? Possibly because, to some non-Air NZ pilots, the sight of the poor, deprived, oh-so-precious prima donnas whining about having to do a little study at home seems somewhat trivial as they climb into their clapped-out old piston twins and fly through the ice and turbulence, hoping like hell that an engine doesn't cough at an inopportune moment.
But then, it's always been that way. And ALPA has always been essentially an Air NZ mutual adoration society.
I guess I'm just lucky, the airlines I have worked for always paid us to study at home. Different culture entirely...
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And the reason why those non ANZ folk are flying clapped out twins on poor conditions is because they did not, and do not now, stand together behind guys like Alpapilot and Red and ask questions whenever management attempt to erode terms and conditions regardless of how minor they are.
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And that is biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard.
One of the reasons why some non-Air NZ folks have the problems they do with crappy GA operators, is that Air NZ pilots and NZALPA are not the slightest bit interested in helping them when they face issues.
GA pilots standing in solidarity with Air NZ pilots would have precisely no effect whatsoever on whatever Air NZ try and pull on their pilots. Why should they bother anyway, it would never be reciprocated.
NZALPA is an Air NZ union, plain and simple. Pretty toothless one, too.
One of the reasons why some non-Air NZ folks have the problems they do with crappy GA operators, is that Air NZ pilots and NZALPA are not the slightest bit interested in helping them when they face issues.
GA pilots standing in solidarity with Air NZ pilots would have precisely no effect whatsoever on whatever Air NZ try and pull on their pilots. Why should they bother anyway, it would never be reciprocated.
NZALPA is an Air NZ union, plain and simple. Pretty toothless one, too.
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Oh Remoak you really do hate ANZ don't you?
Currently NZALPA has a GA co-ordinator appointed specifically to support GA,
The CFT ( Contingency Fund Trust) offers sponsorships to B Cats in GA to get their A Cat instructors ratings and both CTC and Canterbury Aviation College have ALPA negotiated employment agreements.
The fees gathered by GA members hardly cover the costs of all this but the membership, including those at Air NZ, are happy to offer mutual support to their GA compardres.
Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. In order for GA pilots to get help they must join up, band together and ask questions in order to get answers.
Interesting you discribe ALPA as toothless. Here we have a member trying to show some teeth and you slag him off?
Why do you think the airlines you have worked for have paid for you to study at home? Could it be the someone like Alpapilot stood up and said "Hey we should be paid to study home shouldn't we?"
Speaking of Alpapilot ( and getting back on topic). Have you found it difficult to talk to your council about this matter? I find with my council that emails are not returned and when I speak directly to some of them they are very vague. What has your experience been?
Currently NZALPA has a GA co-ordinator appointed specifically to support GA,
The CFT ( Contingency Fund Trust) offers sponsorships to B Cats in GA to get their A Cat instructors ratings and both CTC and Canterbury Aviation College have ALPA negotiated employment agreements.
The fees gathered by GA members hardly cover the costs of all this but the membership, including those at Air NZ, are happy to offer mutual support to their GA compardres.
Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. In order for GA pilots to get help they must join up, band together and ask questions in order to get answers.
Interesting you discribe ALPA as toothless. Here we have a member trying to show some teeth and you slag him off?
Why do you think the airlines you have worked for have paid for you to study at home? Could it be the someone like Alpapilot stood up and said "Hey we should be paid to study home shouldn't we?"
Speaking of Alpapilot ( and getting back on topic). Have you found it difficult to talk to your council about this matter? I find with my council that emails are not returned and when I speak directly to some of them they are very vague. What has your experience been?
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No I don't hate Air NZ at all. They are pretty good for a relatively small airline, good standards and training, and the product from the pax point of view is truly excellent. My favourite long-haul commuting airline (and I have the Gold Elite card to prove it...
)
The only downside is the lingering union culture evident amongst some of the flight deck, but hey that's to be expected.
And they have only managed to negotiate agreements at two training establishments?
First of all, no they're not, and secondly, any union worthy of the name would take no notice of where the majority of the funds come from when it came to deciding how it was spent. NZALPA could learn a lot from BALPA in this regard.
When GA pilots see any point at all in joining, they will. I have been back in the GA scene for a year or so and have not seen, nor heard mention, of any NZALPA reps or presence. Probably because I'm not in Auckland.
"Getting some discussion going" is showing teeth...??? Lord have mercy...
No... the airline wasn't unionised. Hardly anyone was a union member. We had an informal company/management interface, which I served on, but never had to ask for these things - they were freely offered as a recognition of the work that we put in above and beyond the call of duty. They helped us, so we helped them. Everyone profited.
)The only downside is the lingering union culture evident amongst some of the flight deck, but hey that's to be expected.
Currently NZALPA has a GA co-ordinator appointed specifically to support GA
The fees gathered by GA members hardly cover the costs of all this but the membership, including those at Air NZ, are happy to offer mutual support to their GA compardres.
Unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. In order for GA pilots to get help they must join up, band together and ask questions in order to get answers.
Interesting you discribe ALPA as toothless. Here we have a member trying to show some teeth and you slag him off?
Why do you think the airlines you have worked for have paid for you to study at home? Could it be the someone like Alpapilot stood up and said "Hey we should be paid to study home shouldn't we?"
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"Getting some discussion going" is showing teeth...??? Lord have mercy...
and if you WANT to bitch about what money gets spent where.... let's look at what %age comes form where!!!!!
I would hazard a guess that about 80%+ comes solely from Air NZ pilots. I stand to be corrected.
don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the same percentage should be spent on the same demographic that paid for it..... but, the battles that NEED to be fought, should be fought, regardless of who paid for it, WHEN the members ask for them to be fought!!!!!
people keep re-iterating that a union is only as strong as its members... and this is true!!! but the union also NEEDS to be pointed in the direction that the members want it to go.
If something is being asked of the members, OUTSIDE of the contract, then this need to be stopped... and ASAP! if You give an inch, they WILL take a mile... and then the precedent is set.
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What's going on?
We're being screwed! That's what!
I've heard that even the Feds have been directed not to complete the approach briefing modules until they hear back.
ALPA's done nothing. Apparently it's going to be discussed at council on 25th Jan (tomorrow) which is way too late. The company are gaining a foot hold on our days off due to ALPA's inaction. If it's true the A320 fleet have had another briefing dumped on them (A320 drivers can confirm that) then we're not on a 'concessionary slide' but a 'concessionary free-fall'.
BTW: I fully endorse Alpapilot bringing this up in the only forum open to NZALPA members. If we all go to ALPA on this then we are not aware of each other's concerns, comments and views. For those of you who are in ALPA and don't like this 'airing of our dirty laundry' then lobby PPRUNE for a private forum. For those who aren't interested - tough. Like BBD said; click the back button.
Bring back regular meetings and then we'll get to hear what the old guard have to say and get some sense.
We're being screwed! That's what!
I've heard that even the Feds have been directed not to complete the approach briefing modules until they hear back.
ALPA's done nothing. Apparently it's going to be discussed at council on 25th Jan (tomorrow) which is way too late. The company are gaining a foot hold on our days off due to ALPA's inaction. If it's true the A320 fleet have had another briefing dumped on them (A320 drivers can confirm that) then we're not on a 'concessionary slide' but a 'concessionary free-fall'.
BTW: I fully endorse Alpapilot bringing this up in the only forum open to NZALPA members. If we all go to ALPA on this then we are not aware of each other's concerns, comments and views. For those of you who are in ALPA and don't like this 'airing of our dirty laundry' then lobby PPRUNE for a private forum. For those who aren't interested - tough. Like BBD said; click the back button.
Bring back regular meetings and then we'll get to hear what the old guard have to say and get some sense.
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BTW: I fully endorse Alpapilot bringing this up in the only forum open to NZALPA members.
The FANZP pilots have been directed not to do the briefing till discussions take place between their industrial managment and ANZ. This seems a reasonable way to go.
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Remoak
During this thread you accuse AirNZ and ALPA of not caring about GA. When given examples of how ALPA has tried to assist in this area you mock their efforts. However I note with interest that you have been back in the GA scene now for over a year. A person of your experience, which you have spoken of extensively of in various threads in this forum, you must have an insight on what GA pilots can do to better their working environment without union input?
I would be interested to know what leadership you have shown to those in GA, that you now associate with, to better their terms and conditions? Surely you have interfaced with management on this issue?
Or are you one of these people that just sits back and bags those who at least try to make a difference.
And for the record CTC are based in Hamilton and Canterbury Aviation in Christchurch. So, no you do not need to be in Auckland. I also understand there is work underway on a CEA with Massey Aviation, in Palmerston, but that is just rumour.
During this thread you accuse AirNZ and ALPA of not caring about GA. When given examples of how ALPA has tried to assist in this area you mock their efforts. However I note with interest that you have been back in the GA scene now for over a year. A person of your experience, which you have spoken of extensively of in various threads in this forum, you must have an insight on what GA pilots can do to better their working environment without union input?
I would be interested to know what leadership you have shown to those in GA, that you now associate with, to better their terms and conditions? Surely you have interfaced with management on this issue?
Or are you one of these people that just sits back and bags those who at least try to make a difference.
And for the record CTC are based in Hamilton and Canterbury Aviation in Christchurch. So, no you do not need to be in Auckland. I also understand there is work underway on a CEA with Massey Aviation, in Palmerston, but that is just rumour.
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B MDA, thats what I thought too, the requal day is actually there for exactly this sort of thing. (Its a gigantic pain in the ass though).
I guess the other option is to be rostered 2 hours on an unassigned day to complete the thing.
Happy to be corrected if i'm wrong.... but I dont really see a slide of anything.
I was also sceptical of the benefit of an ALPA junket to the states. With the benefit of hind sight, ie the deals brokered over the last few weeks with the virgin group, its possibly very important work that the 3 big cheeses accomplished in the states late last year.
I guess time and the upcoming ALPA elections will tell.....
Any of you rowdy lot standing?
I guess the other option is to be rostered 2 hours on an unassigned day to complete the thing.
Happy to be corrected if i'm wrong.... but I dont really see a slide of anything.
I was also sceptical of the benefit of an ALPA junket to the states. With the benefit of hind sight, ie the deals brokered over the last few weeks with the virgin group, its possibly very important work that the 3 big cheeses accomplished in the states late last year.
I guess time and the upcoming ALPA elections will tell.....
Any of you rowdy lot standing?
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Bongo
The problem with most GA pilots is that they are scared sh*tless of annoying the boss and losing their job, or getting a bad rep, so they pretty much do as they are told. They know that they have no power, and belonging to a union won't change that as the union has no way of enforcing their will (as long as the employer is obeying the rules). They also know that ten guys want their job, the employer knows this too, so what you have is a classic lose-lose.
So what can they do? Stand up to their bosses and make sure they don't compromise their standards. It's called being professional... and move on as soon as possible. Don't need a union for that.
Why do you think standards in GA have barely changed in 20 years?
The answer is "quite a lot", but the PROBLEM is that if it costs money, the owner isn't interested. Have made some progress though. Union nowhere to be found.
What the industry actually needs is an advocacy group with some teeth, that is interested in doing something about the most dangerous group in NZ aviation - the small to medium GA operators. The flight schools you mention are all professionally managed and highly unlikely to involve their staff in risk. Operations like CTC are very well run and professional. They won't even let their aircraft into the air if there is a CB within 50 miles... which is more than you can say for most GA operators.
The operations that most need NZALPA intervention are also the ones that NZALPA shows no interest in.
Once again, NZALPA could learn an awful lot from BALPA.
you must have an insight on what GA pilots can do to better their working environment without union input?
So what can they do? Stand up to their bosses and make sure they don't compromise their standards. It's called being professional... and move on as soon as possible. Don't need a union for that.
Why do you think standards in GA have barely changed in 20 years?
I would be interested to know what leadership you have shown to those in GA, that you now associate with, to better their terms and conditions? Surely you have interfaced with management on this issue?
What the industry actually needs is an advocacy group with some teeth, that is interested in doing something about the most dangerous group in NZ aviation - the small to medium GA operators. The flight schools you mention are all professionally managed and highly unlikely to involve their staff in risk. Operations like CTC are very well run and professional. They won't even let their aircraft into the air if there is a CB within 50 miles... which is more than you can say for most GA operators.
The operations that most need NZALPA intervention are also the ones that NZALPA shows no interest in.
Once again, NZALPA could learn an awful lot from BALPA.
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Well Remoak I stand corrected.
Your "quite a lot" absolutely out trumps everything ALPA has to offer. To all the GA ALPA members give up your 24/7 access to critical incident response support. Give up your access to legal representation when your boss decides to sack you for refusing to fly when it is not legal. Forgo the savings achieved through group life insurance, loss of licence insurance and all the rest of the benefits available.
Hey all you B Cats who want to do your A Cat upgrades, Remoak's "quite alot" support network will sponsor you how much?????
Talking about instructors. You guys and gals at the big schools don't need ALPA negotiated contracts because they will never put you at risk. They may not pay you anything but thats ok because being safe is the only thing that you career instructors need to pay the bills.
And hows about these words from the gospel of Remoak. GA operators aren't interested cos it costs too much. Straight to revelations chapter one!
Yep save your membership fees people because Remoak's advocacy group will be saving the day for you all. And on his panel of experts will be GA operators, their blind mates at CAA and Remoak's management interfacers.
Good luck.
Your "quite a lot" absolutely out trumps everything ALPA has to offer. To all the GA ALPA members give up your 24/7 access to critical incident response support. Give up your access to legal representation when your boss decides to sack you for refusing to fly when it is not legal. Forgo the savings achieved through group life insurance, loss of licence insurance and all the rest of the benefits available.
Hey all you B Cats who want to do your A Cat upgrades, Remoak's "quite alot" support network will sponsor you how much?????
Talking about instructors. You guys and gals at the big schools don't need ALPA negotiated contracts because they will never put you at risk. They may not pay you anything but thats ok because being safe is the only thing that you career instructors need to pay the bills.
And hows about these words from the gospel of Remoak. GA operators aren't interested cos it costs too much. Straight to revelations chapter one!
Yep save your membership fees people because Remoak's advocacy group will be saving the day for you all. And on his panel of experts will be GA operators, their blind mates at CAA and Remoak's management interfacers.
Good luck.
Last edited by Bongo Bus Driver; 26th Jan 2011 at 03:40.
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Oh give it a rest, Bongo.
Hmmm... yes that's a valuable package all right. So valuable that I assume all GA drivers with half a brain would sign up immediately. But wait... they don't. Now I wonder why that might be...
Possibly because most of what NZALPA offer can be found elsewhere at similar prices, or is of questionable value anyway.
And you just know that if you have a problem with your employer, NZALPA are highly unlikely to help you very much. They know the percentages in such cases. But by all means, list for us any recent successes NZALPA have had in the GA world...
Mind you, I could possibly use the "24/7 access to critical incident response support". That sounds cool. So when I prang my kite, I have a sleepy NZALPA rep on the phone blowing sunshine up my ass? Yep, that would be very helpful, I'm sure.
I would have a lot more time for NZALPA if they were to occasionally walk through our door and chat to the troops... find out what's going on... sign a few folk up. Chance would be a fine thing.
Like I said... NZALPA could learn a whole lot from BALPA...
Oh and by the way, just so you don't think I'm anti-union, I belonged to the afore-mentioned BALPA for 25 years. And very helpful they were too. They learned that, although British Airways constituted 80% of their membership, they still needed to actively seek out and support the employees of "lesser" airlines. So they went on a recruitment drive that dramatically increased their membership, with a corresponding dramatic increase in their war chest, which led to a dramatic increase in successful actions against poor employers.
Yes, NZALPA could learn a whole lot.
I'm not against unions. I'm just against crap unions that only look after their money base.
Your "quite a lot" absolutely out trumps everything ALPA has to offer. To all the GA ALPA members give up your 24/7 access to critical incident response support. Give up your access to legal representation when your boss decides to sack you for refusing to fly when it is not legal. Forgo the savings achieved through group life insurance, loss of licence insurance and all the rest of the benefits available.
Possibly because most of what NZALPA offer can be found elsewhere at similar prices, or is of questionable value anyway.
And you just know that if you have a problem with your employer, NZALPA are highly unlikely to help you very much. They know the percentages in such cases. But by all means, list for us any recent successes NZALPA have had in the GA world...
Mind you, I could possibly use the "24/7 access to critical incident response support". That sounds cool. So when I prang my kite, I have a sleepy NZALPA rep on the phone blowing sunshine up my ass? Yep, that would be very helpful, I'm sure.
I would have a lot more time for NZALPA if they were to occasionally walk through our door and chat to the troops... find out what's going on... sign a few folk up. Chance would be a fine thing.
Like I said... NZALPA could learn a whole lot from BALPA...
Oh and by the way, just so you don't think I'm anti-union, I belonged to the afore-mentioned BALPA for 25 years. And very helpful they were too. They learned that, although British Airways constituted 80% of their membership, they still needed to actively seek out and support the employees of "lesser" airlines. So they went on a recruitment drive that dramatically increased their membership, with a corresponding dramatic increase in their war chest, which led to a dramatic increase in successful actions against poor employers.
Yes, NZALPA could learn a whole lot.
I'm not against unions. I'm just against crap unions that only look after their money base.