ATC Staff Shortages?

[Blockla]

"British air traffic controllers are paid $79,074.63 USD on average to has high as $118,616.35 USD"

what exchange rate was used when this was calculated? Cause it's much higher than that now...

[Pavement]

A lot of ATCs would agree with CI. Conditions are not too bad although everyone (in all occupations) would like more money. Why do you want to knock down someone who is happy with his lot and has the marbles to say so publicly? Yeah he might end up bitter and twisted in 5 years but at the moment I'd prefer to work with him. Coming in shift after shift to hear people moan about how poorly they are treated is a pain.

Yep I've done 20 years and I've had good and bad from management. However, I love my job and I think the conditions are fairly good except for the expectation that people should come in on their days off to make up for poor staffing.

Offer me CPI and the same conditions with the next agreement and I'm sold. I guess that would be a bit too easy for everyone concerned!

[Dick N. Cider]

Pavement,

Agree that there's nothing wrong with being happy with your lot. A couple of agreements ago there was a tour around the country to see what people wanted out of the agreement. Best response was from a southern tower: "No loss in real terms across the agreement and tell Airservices to F$#@ off and let us do our job." Your solution has merit but there's always attack on conditions as any increases (even just CPI) have to be funded by productivity.

DNC

[Pavement]

DNC

Yeah I know, I live in my own dream world sometimes. There will be a lot of meetings in TFNs office and no-one would have the courage to say 'lets avoid conflict and leave conditions untouched'. If they did they would probably be sent on gardening leave. Must be a lot of beautiful gardens around Canberra.

Side note - how much has been spent on GM redundancies over the last few years?

[12-47]

Pavement, I'd love to know your definition of CPI. 3% could explain why in reality your lot has actually WORSENED over the last 10 years.

Are your managers and the plethora of non operational staff receiving CPI within their base and bonus structure?

[Jack Ranga]

For your 6 little whines of outrage I just got 9 people supporting me privately - 4 of them 20 yr + controllers! And 2 pilots!

I'd rather public support as expressed by the others who have the guts to post here

For someone so happy you come across like an angry little gen y'er.

By the way, just think - I could be working next to a few of you everyday and you wouldn't even know it!

Why wouldn't I know it? Are you too gutless to express your private opinion publicly, amongst your work colleagues? There's some real balls there

They wouldn't waste the time on following your silly, self-inflated and indulgent views/opinions.

They, like you, haven't got the guts to follow their convictions, come EBA time they cave whenever PIA is threatened. As witnessed last time when 96.5% odd of us stood together and got you your 'fair' conditions.

I thrive on it!!!

Congratulations, well done, happy for you

Guaranteed, luckily I have 2 degree's and REAL profession to go back into IF I ever get jaded by ATC. Oh and for the record, paid about 15k more than currently, but having to actually work a lot harder for it! And certainly not the conditions I enjoy now!

Fair dinkum, you are the first person I've heard of that's traded a 9-to-5, weekends off for shift work and less pay? mmmmmmmm, you kind of prove everyone's point here, except of course your 9 anonymous ATC friends

[Pavement]

12-47

Yeah whole new topic really. Even CPI doesn't really keep up with costs. Watching as interest rates, water, electricity, petrol etc all go gangbusters. How do you quantify it all?

If costs go up by CPI it doesn't necessarily mean you need CPI on you wage to keep pace. I.E if your yearly costs are $50000 then 5% (for ease) equals $2500. If your take home pay is $100000 (after tax) then 5% equals $5000. So in a cash sense your better off as long as take home pay exceeds costs included in the CPI.

Yep very simplistic. However, the point I made is that most ATCs would be happy with an increase without any change in conditions. As to the amount, well we each have our sell out point I guess.

[ferris]

Rubbery figures

If your take home pay is $100000 (after tax) then 5% equals $5000.

Ahhh, no. To achieve a 5% increase on your netpay, you need to achieve more like a 10% increase on your grosspay. Which explains why if you receive only CPI increases, you are going backwards (if you spend more than 50% of your net pay, in this example). Especially when almost everyone manages to spend about 100% of their net

[Pavement]

Gross $200k tax 50% = net $100k
5% increase
Gross $210 tax 50% = net $105k (5%)

Agree with one point though, most acts spend more than they earn cause they can't add up

[ferris]

Your numbers might work if you had a flat tax rate environment (and people spent 50% of what they earned- good luck with that). You sure you are not a manager with such numerical skills?

Agree with your point about fighting for increases though. Most would be happy not to fight, ever, if they just left everyone alone and issued CPI. Tell him he's dreamin'.

[Pavement]

It works. It was a side point. I did say it was simplistic just to demonstrate that comparing rises to CPI does not account for each persons situation.

I can't be a manager - I'm too happy.

[mikk_13]

Why doesn't civil air just give ASA what they want.

Next CA, just let them go for it. All new trainees get no salary while in the college, 25g while final feild training. New controllers get 40g to begin with, increments over 40 years to 140g. Do away with training bonds. No extra money for over time. Bonus money to retire early, no incentives to stay. Let them go for it so everyone retires, no one new wants the the job, and let it all collapse. Cancel the extra money to train someone, and if you want to quit before this ca comes in you get 150grand. Give them the rope to hang themselves

[whymefly]

the original topic

Hi eveyone, seems the topic is almost back on track. The point of the original thread (if I remember rightly.......) is that ASA/TFN has finally fessed up to the fact that there are not enough bods on seats. Shame they haven't got the kahoonas to admit that it's their fault.
The $64 question is (and I suggest this may be a rhetorical question): can they fix it?

[Pavement]

I agree we did digress. Although everyone would be happier if the next agreement is short and sharp.
Staffing will never be fixed. Management accept staffing levels that require high levels of overtime to makeup the shortfall. This won't change. Therefore group staffing will never be adequate.
TFN and his groupies think that technology will be the savior with lots of promises of big staff reductions (eg tower on a stick, voice recognition, son of TAAATs, ADS-B). Maybe in 20 years but not in the timeframe required.
Won't change until the management is refreshed with people who understand the business and providing a service to the customer. A CEO needs to take a bit hit on their bonus and do a one off paper increase in the budgeted staff numbers to give managers authority to work towards an increase.
Yep - dreaming again.

[cattledog]

CI,

"It seems a lot of you seriously think upper management is doing nothing about it. Get real."

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha what else do you swallow hook, line and sinker.

Proof is in the pudding my friend. check ATC staff numbers over the last 5 years in the annual reports. hmmmmmm going down - awesome upper management action.

[max1]

CI,

Some selective quotes of yours

And don't start on the "oh what poor instructing technique" train.. sometimes you have to give them the hard cold facts straight up, considering he/she had been told repeatedly of the same error's he/she was making!)

If he takes offence at such from an anonymous person on an anonymous forum, well he clearly doesn't have the heart for ATC does he.
Another college failure who can't conceive that they just couldn't do the job. Blame everything else. Cry me a river please. You need to just face up to the fact that you obviously were not up to scratch.

But I still blame the individuals themselves. The buck stops with them. It is not the college's fault.

you do have to question what the Learning Academy is up to letting that sort of poor standard of trainee slip through! That's the sort of thing we can reasonably attribute to the instructors and academy. Questions are entitled to be asked.

We all know they stuffed up for years IN THE PAST and are now in a hole that is going to take many years to fix.

Someone earlier brought up the issue of respect shown by trainees to controllers, worth remembering it goes both ways ladies.

But it is not the poor ab's fault for the training course they receive. Openly saying how pathetic they are does little to help them achieve a rating. If you have some advice for them, why not spend 5 minutes sharing that with them. Instead of ridiculing them and making them feel like sh!t. Not everyone can be God like you remember Some of us are mere mortals.

Oh, and max1 in regards to the comment about handing off closing, I am just passing on the sentiments expressed to me privately by those people who agree with much of what I say but are too scared to express so for fears of reprisal in the workplace.

I don't believe anyone would actually give off the set-up I suggested, but I have heard stories, and seen first-hand, of people watching an incident (whether it be a BoS or BoC or something else) unfold and rather than intervening and ding'ing the ATC concerned, notifies the SM/ALM/front desk and dob's them in. I'm certain you would have to finally agree with me that the above is completely unprofessional and disgusting behaviour. So I understand why people are unwilling to challenge the, ahem, "dominant" males that are so outwardly negative about everything!

I hope you don't tolerate the behaviour you state that you have seen occur in that last paragraph. I also hope you have the intestinal fortitude to stop the behaviour you say you have seen occur in regards to ab-initios. See it, Report it, Stop it.

BTW

By the way, just think - I could be working next to a few of you everyday and you wouldn't even know it! Nor will you ever!

What's this comment about?????

[coneyisland]

max1,

Wonderful cut and paste work. Great example of things being taken out of context. You may have a calling as a journo or lawyer with those skills.

To answer your question re:doing something about it (people watching incidents occur). The two instances that I was indirectly involved with/aware of - I did raise it with the SM on duty on both occasions making my discontent with the issue quite clear.

In regards to derogatory/negative comments made to Ab's, I have always shared my experiences with them and given them positive feedback/motivation where possible. Being a 2 and a bit year controller however, I'm not going to openly tell a 20 yr controller how he should conduct himself around the workplace. Not my job. I have however reported such comments to my manager. That's what he is there for!

Anyhow, it's clear I have different ideas/opinions to most of you. I respect your views as I trust you respect mine. Perhaps one day I may come to the same views/conclusions after being in the system as long as some of you! As long as I come to those on my own - not through the constant droning of negativity from others around me in the workplace.

Sadly, it is the attitudes/actions of fellow controllers (not all) that has had the most negative impact on me in my short career as an ATC - not the way I've been treated by AsA, I have no personal bad experiences there thus far.

All the Best

[Plazbot]

COmpletely unrelated to staff shortages (but a contributing factor) I will support one of COneyIsland's watching it happen points. In all my time on the licence burner that is Tops, I was stood down only once and it was entirely a case of the ****head in Melbourne watching it happen. I called with 4 estimates for him (why the fark we do voice estimates on ADSB tracks that messaging has worked for is lost one me). He took the first one then told me he would call me rigt back for the second and hung up. I sat and waited doing not a whole lot for a few minutes and then he called back. I assumed it was for him to tell me about number two but he asked me if I was planing on giving him number 4. I replied that I had already called him and he was getting back to me. I looked at the clock and it was now 14 minutes from number 4's estimate to the fence. For non ATC types, in procedural airspace in OZ you gotta call up and tell them the acft is coming 15 minutes before their fence. I called the front desk straight away to let him know there may be an issue and he told me that the Melbourne sup had already called him to tell him I had dropped coord. The cnut must have sat and watched the clock tick down the 5 or so minutes instead of actualy calling me back like he said he would then dobbed me in for not calling him. WTF? I have since found out who the cnut was and he is 'on the list'. I will wear it though as apparently I should have called him back on his I will call you back

Anyway, as for

not the way I've been treated by AsA, I have no personal bad experiences there thus far.

Just wait, it will come. I recall sitting in my managers office (the one above ALM whatever that is) and discussing my release to the College for the gig I scored. I have quite the list of GTS, SME and project duties on my resume. HE informed me that 'If you want me to do something for you, you have to do something for me first'. There was no 'something' that he had in mind, only the concept that as he was the new manager, I had no 'points' with him and I was not to be released. I accepted my job in the Middle East that afternoon.

AsA has some very serious issues with staff at all levels and there would have to be sme serious changes before I for one would be looking at picking up a head set in OZ again.

[5miles]

Offer me CPI and the same conditions with the next agreement and I'm sold.

Is that the same conditions that seem to get re-interpreted on a daily basis?

I would like to see any clause containing weasle words such as "maybe, should, reasonable, at our discretion" removed.

[divingduck]

Thoughts from afar

To answer your question re:doing something about it (people watching incidents occur). The two instances that I was indirectly involved with/aware of - I did raise it with the SM on duty on both occasions making my discontent with the issue quite clear.

I'll give this new fangled cut and paste thingy a try....

So...having complained that noone did anything about it you told the boss...did you at any stage try to call the guy about to have a breakdown? That would have struck me as the obvious thing to do..otherwise you could also be accused of watching someone go under, don't you think?

Being a 2 and a bit year controller however, I'm not going to openly tell a 20 yr controller how he should conduct himself around the workplace. Not my job. I have however reported such comments to my manager. That's what he is there for!

Actually I do think it is up to you to tell the guy/gal that their behaviour isn't correct...he may be completely unaware that he is doing it...seriously! If he then gives you a mouthful of abuse, (and I have been on the receiving end of a few of those) THEN rat him out to his boss...I wouldn't like to hear about something like this for the first time when in a meeting with the boss.

Running up to the boss in the first instance and "ratting out" your workmates will not do your future happiness in the workplace any favours...reputations like that you don't need.

Sadly, it is the attitudes/actions of fellow controllers (not all) that has had the most negative impact on me in my short career as an ATC

That seems from this distance to be unfortunatley the norm these days...it never used to be thus...but then again in my day there were no performance bonuses to protect either.