Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....
IMHO, Joe is no he's just protecting his interests, raping it with some feel good spin about "We, the industry", these people should have thought about their actions before accepting the job.
What you are suggesting is that a whole generation of pilots should stay in GA/Regionals so that you can get paid a high end wage by world standards.
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Yes, Neville, suprisingly enough, thats just about exactly what I did, and it paid off.
To act in any other way was short sighted and rather ignorant, I sat down, looked very closely at the offer sitting infront of me and the long term consequences accepting the position would cause, and declined.
In part, yes, if pilots had forsight and integrity, they would have said no, the company would have changed its tack and offered much better conditions on all fronts to get the crew into the aircraft, to the point it would have been motherships terms and conditions, and guess what, none of this would be happening.
Houses are not getting cheaper, yet pilots are working for less, you'd have to question their stupidity.
This is the reason I have no sympathy, they caused their own demise, they under cut everyone else, now someone else is doing it to them, IMHO its really not that complicated.
Good luck to them, but, my eyes glaze over when I hear these guys and gals complaining and banging the drum.
To act in any other way was short sighted and rather ignorant, I sat down, looked very closely at the offer sitting infront of me and the long term consequences accepting the position would cause, and declined.
What you are suggesting is that a whole generation of pilots should stay in GA/Regionals so that you can get paid a high end wage by world standards.
Houses are not getting cheaper, yet pilots are working for less, you'd have to question their stupidity.
This is the reason I have no sympathy, they caused their own demise, they under cut everyone else, now someone else is doing it to them, IMHO its really not that complicated.
Good luck to them, but, my eyes glaze over when I hear these guys and gals complaining and banging the drum.
I think if that were to happen in this day and age the airlines would go to the government cap in hand and say that there are no suitable applicants and start getting foreign workers in. REX tried this stunt a few years ago when they were short of crew only to discover that the salary was to low to qualify for the Visa on offer!!
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I need to get my head around this.
So because people accepted jobs at VB and Jetstar, we (all pilots) should forever stand back and let various managements do whatever they please. Is this correct?
Everybody should stay on a Metro/Saab/Braz so it will one day pay off? Each to their own but I could easily pour over many regional eba's and state that they are infact the ultimate in peasant conditions: 8 days off/split duties/motel rooms/6 sector days/casual rosters/firm rosters that change everyday.
I think there needs to be a distinction between a reasonable offer here. For example J* NZ is not reasonable. Its pretty clear that this would be a step backwards from most regional jobs. Hence even when I was desperate to leave a crap job I just deleted the recruitment email.
I've got a good job earn good money and am comfortable. Should I just not give a **** that someone has been sacked for speaking out about a safety concern? Perhaps.
Word on the street is that the sacking has had the desired effect and the Jetstar guys are keeping their mouths shut and heads down. Congrats management. It worked...IF it doesn't gain traction at the Senate Enquiry.
If not all you can hope for is Karma...
So because people accepted jobs at VB and Jetstar, we (all pilots) should forever stand back and let various managements do whatever they please. Is this correct?
Everybody should stay on a Metro/Saab/Braz so it will one day pay off? Each to their own but I could easily pour over many regional eba's and state that they are infact the ultimate in peasant conditions: 8 days off/split duties/motel rooms/6 sector days/casual rosters/firm rosters that change everyday.
I think there needs to be a distinction between a reasonable offer here. For example J* NZ is not reasonable. Its pretty clear that this would be a step backwards from most regional jobs. Hence even when I was desperate to leave a crap job I just deleted the recruitment email.
I've got a good job earn good money and am comfortable. Should I just not give a **** that someone has been sacked for speaking out about a safety concern? Perhaps.
Word on the street is that the sacking has had the desired effect and the Jetstar guys are keeping their mouths shut and heads down. Congrats management. It worked...IF it doesn't gain traction at the Senate Enquiry.
If not all you can hope for is Karma...
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 12th Dec 2010 at 07:56.
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SD Tosser
This is a tired old argument that goes round and round.
Reality is:
Not everyone has the qualifications nor ability nor desire to work for a Qantas.
You live in an alternate reality if you expect these people to stay on GA wages for the rest of their lives when there is a reasonable offer (to them!) on the table somewhere else.
This is a tired old argument that goes round and round.
Reality is:
Not everyone has the qualifications nor ability nor desire to work for a Qantas.
You live in an alternate reality if you expect these people to stay on GA wages for the rest of their lives when there is a reasonable offer (to them!) on the table somewhere else.
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So because people accepted jobs at VB and Jetstar, we (all pilots) should forever stand back and let various managements do whatever they please. Is this correct?
I think their needs to be a distinction between a reasonable offer here. For example J* NZ is not reasonable
Should I just not give a **** that someone has been sacked for speaking out about a safety concern? Perhaps.
You live in an alternate reality if you expect these people to stay on GA wages for the rest of their lives when there is a reasonable offer (to them!) on the table somewhere else.
If you guys think it so good, why is it you are such a miserable mob ?.
I thought it was unreasonable then and nothing has changed.
There are many organisation, GA and regional that offer reasonable terms, conditions and a good work/home balance.
If a pilot runs to job interviews willing to dry hump the leg of the CEO who's organisation is willing to put them in a new jet, damn the consequences, I personally think they're daft.
Reality is:
Not everyone has the qualifications nor ability nor desire to work for a Qantas.
Not everyone has the qualifications nor ability nor desire to work for a Qantas.
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There are many organisation, GA and regional that offer reasonable terms, conditions and a good work/home balance.
what a pisser. You mean peasant conditions with fckall job security.
This clearly is where you and I differ, I believe what one star pilots are presently accepting is unreasonable, as I did several years ago when I did the apples with apples comparision, so one star NZ, IMHO is even more unreasonable.
Safety concern, horses bollocks, it's an industrial issue
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sdTOSSER, winding the clock back 10 years with no purchase of JQ, how would you have handled the threat to your cushy job courtesy of VB smashing QF's profits? Oh and to compete,the latest commands on a 76/73 is for 30% less? Tell me you wouldn't take one.
As for Australian Airlines in Cairns, well........
As has been said many times before, Joe simply had enough and stood up!
As for Australian Airlines in Cairns, well........
As has been said many times before, Joe simply had enough and stood up!
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QF domestic alone is still turning a profit despite all this "fierce" competition you speak off, not all punters are sold on the value of a $1 airfare.
One star, VB and the striped quadruped are really competition for each other and their creation has really hit Greyhound and Firefly Coaches the hardest.
IMHO, those that have jumped ship to cheaper fares have either come back very quickly or it is highly probable they are best flying elsewhere, I've only flown LCC a couple of times and have always been fearful of being raped in the toilets or getting in a fist fight because I wore a shirt with a collar and shoes, clearly I think I'm better than them........
Well good for him, I very much doubt his work mates will stand behind him, do not seem to be so far, too much self interest at play, I wonder how many heard the news of his demise, smiled and took their red pen to the seniority list without another single thought.
I feel for the guy but do not think it was a well thought through action.
There are still those with a backbone that would not stand for such an act, oh and what of the negotiation of said "pseudo agreement", do you reckon it would stand a snow flakes chance of being voted in ?.
Wow this is getting really boring, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?.
One star, VB and the striped quadruped are really competition for each other and their creation has really hit Greyhound and Firefly Coaches the hardest.
IMHO, those that have jumped ship to cheaper fares have either come back very quickly or it is highly probable they are best flying elsewhere, I've only flown LCC a couple of times and have always been fearful of being raped in the toilets or getting in a fist fight because I wore a shirt with a collar and shoes, clearly I think I'm better than them........
Joe simply had enough and stood up!
I feel for the guy but do not think it was a well thought through action.
the latest commands on a 76/73 is for 30% less?
Wow this is getting really boring, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?.
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Glad to see you're getting bored SDTosser.
I have been raising concern since NJS turned up with the first red tail 146 15 years ago. Since then many people like you still can't string together a coherent response other than a school yard standard "he started it".
A short story….
1. A Company has expensive and confident pilots with strong culture. Yuk. Bean-counter nightmare ... ticket prices falling.
2. Fix it by starting up new company with cheaper pilots and make sure culture doesn't get polluted.
3. New company now cheaper but pilots start developing a similar culture. Awful things like complying with rules & regs, taking sick leave when short of pilots, not extending duties when fatigued, not working on short notice when unrested and reporting dodgy practices that might look bad in the press. This is no good, shoestring budget blowing out! Fire them. Bugger. Horrible regulations protecting them and Howard voted out.
4. Make more new companies. Jerk everyone around a lot - they should feel less comfortable now. Bugger, pilots still insist on doing inconvenient things and some have the audacity to stand up for their rights. Some of them even use rules/contractual rights to better their industrial position and maybe even use these to jerk the comany around from time to time. Got to get rid of those rules. They are stuffing up the whole masterplan.
5. Make new industrial situations that totally disempower Pilots. Scare the crap out of them. That'll fix it. Now any rascals miss out on promotion and hopefuly bugger off. Or they'll have to keep quiet because of their massive training debt. Finally we can prove this shoestring budget really works by retaining a new breed of subservient pilots that’ll always help us keep the show on the road.
6. Keep telling the world that safety is our number one priority and that we hold our staff in the highest regard. Make out that anyone who raises concern has an industrial axe to grind. Brilliant! What could possibly go wrong?
SDT, this is an industrial issue and OUR BOSS is vigorously pursuing it. But if you cant see the associated safety/operational standards slippage involved then I think you are out of touch.
I am very concerned about disempowered expert workforces (Pilots and Engineers) anywhere within the company that pays my salary. NASA managed to blow up the space shuttle twice by disempowering their experts. If this all goes wrong, we all might end up on the same T&C's - unemployed. Do you think the business will survive a smoking hole in the ground regardless of what colour the tail was? I doubt it.
I have been raising concern since NJS turned up with the first red tail 146 15 years ago. Since then many people like you still can't string together a coherent response other than a school yard standard "he started it".
Safety concern, horses bollocks, it's an industrial issue.
A short story….
1. A Company has expensive and confident pilots with strong culture. Yuk. Bean-counter nightmare ... ticket prices falling.
2. Fix it by starting up new company with cheaper pilots and make sure culture doesn't get polluted.
3. New company now cheaper but pilots start developing a similar culture. Awful things like complying with rules & regs, taking sick leave when short of pilots, not extending duties when fatigued, not working on short notice when unrested and reporting dodgy practices that might look bad in the press. This is no good, shoestring budget blowing out! Fire them. Bugger. Horrible regulations protecting them and Howard voted out.
4. Make more new companies. Jerk everyone around a lot - they should feel less comfortable now. Bugger, pilots still insist on doing inconvenient things and some have the audacity to stand up for their rights. Some of them even use rules/contractual rights to better their industrial position and maybe even use these to jerk the comany around from time to time. Got to get rid of those rules. They are stuffing up the whole masterplan.
5. Make new industrial situations that totally disempower Pilots. Scare the crap out of them. That'll fix it. Now any rascals miss out on promotion and hopefuly bugger off. Or they'll have to keep quiet because of their massive training debt. Finally we can prove this shoestring budget really works by retaining a new breed of subservient pilots that’ll always help us keep the show on the road.
6. Keep telling the world that safety is our number one priority and that we hold our staff in the highest regard. Make out that anyone who raises concern has an industrial axe to grind. Brilliant! What could possibly go wrong?
SDT, this is an industrial issue and OUR BOSS is vigorously pursuing it. But if you cant see the associated safety/operational standards slippage involved then I think you are out of touch.
I am very concerned about disempowered expert workforces (Pilots and Engineers) anywhere within the company that pays my salary. NASA managed to blow up the space shuttle twice by disempowering their experts. If this all goes wrong, we all might end up on the same T&C's - unemployed. Do you think the business will survive a smoking hole in the ground regardless of what colour the tail was? I doubt it.
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Wow, I guess you've got it all worked out then,,,, (yawn).......
School yard or not, it is still true.
Pretty much every real airline in the world has made smoking holes somewhere, including the mothership, and they survive just fine.
I really enjoy reading your opinions presented as facts, and your amazing theories, you mad economical scientist you.
Here's my safety concern, since we stopped being given those little bags of pretzels on our meal trays, and given the peanuts instead, every flight I spend 1-2 milli-seconds lamenting the pretzels and how much I enjoyed them, perhaps I should take this to the media as a safety issue ?, well it couldn't be anything other than a safety issue could it ?, you know, because it is coming from a pilot.
Or, do you now believe Mr Eakins concerns to be actually industrial in nature, dressed up as safety, which it isn't.
I say again, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?.
You guys/gals should stand together, that is what a smart group would do, but do not expect the love and admiration from those that you previously and selfishly burnt.
Since then many people like you still can't string together a coherent response other than a school yard standard "he started it".
Do you think the business will survive a smoking hole in the ground regardless of what colour the tail was? I doubt it.
I really enjoy reading your opinions presented as facts, and your amazing theories, you mad economical scientist you.
Here's my safety concern, since we stopped being given those little bags of pretzels on our meal trays, and given the peanuts instead, every flight I spend 1-2 milli-seconds lamenting the pretzels and how much I enjoyed them, perhaps I should take this to the media as a safety issue ?, well it couldn't be anything other than a safety issue could it ?, you know, because it is coming from a pilot.
Or, do you now believe Mr Eakins concerns to be actually industrial in nature, dressed up as safety, which it isn't.
I say again, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?.
You guys/gals should stand together, that is what a smart group would do, but do not expect the love and admiration from those that you previously and selfishly burnt.
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Worry not SDT.
My prediction is that the Senate Enquiry won't change a thing and if anything will just put more scrutiny on simulator sessions with the regulator able to exert even more pressure. Nor will FWA support the J Eakins cause because ultimately it is a breach of the contract.
Lucky you and I got a good job hey.
Big Business will always win in the end. All the best.
My prediction is that the Senate Enquiry won't change a thing and if anything will just put more scrutiny on simulator sessions with the regulator able to exert even more pressure. Nor will FWA support the J Eakins cause because ultimately it is a breach of the contract.
Lucky you and I got a good job hey.
Big Business will always win in the end. All the best.
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Big Business will always win in the end.
Funnily enough, if not for the recent influx of super cheap consumer goods from communist China over the past decade, then real spending power of the average wage earner would have actually fallen substantially.
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I say again, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?
There is nothing interesting to add. The situation is quite straightforward to most.
I really enjoy reading your opinions presented as facts, and your amazing theories, you mad economical scientist you.
Glad to hear you're entertained. What’s not so funny under the tongue in cheek story is some unfortunate reality.
You guys/gals should stand together, that is what a smart group would do, but do not expect the love and admiration from those that you previously and selfishly burnt.
SDT, were your burns first degree? If so then I'm sure no one expects you to be forthcoming with love and admiration. Good luck with your recovery but I'll be too busy paying attention to Joe's recovery to keep in touch. Ciao.
