Merged: Senate Inquiry
So it looks like they are going for 1500 hrs (ATPL) to get a window seat on a jet. Some sanity remains, let's see if it's adopted!
Gosh I must be a slooower reader than I thought with all the above posts jumping in
Gosh I must be a slooower reader than I thought with all the above posts jumping in
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So what's going to happen with the jet cadet programmes? Will the operators take notice of these recommendations?
Obviously they can continue to operate for now but what about the people who are coming through the system? Surely they won't be running these zero-to-hero programmes right up until the night before regulation kicks in.
What sort of impact is this likely to have on the lower end of the job market?
Obviously they can continue to operate for now but what about the people who are coming through the system? Surely they won't be running these zero-to-hero programmes right up until the night before regulation kicks in.
What sort of impact is this likely to have on the lower end of the job market?
LIST OF RECOMMENDATIONS
Recommendation 1*
2.278* The committee is of the view that an ATPL should also be required for
first officers in high capacity regular public transport (RPT) jet aircraft such as
Boeing 737, A320 and other aircraft of similar or greater capacity, and that
consideration be given to implementing this as a standard.*
Recommendation 2*
2.279* The committee recommends that for non-jet operations which employ
low-experience first officers, operators be required to provide enhanced
supervision and mentoring schemes to offset such lack of experience.*
Recommendation 3*
2.280* The committee recommends that Air Operators Certificate (AOC)
holders be required to develop and implement 'green on green' policy positions
relating to the use of low experience pilots in RPT operations, to maximise,
wherever possible, the collective experience level of flight crew.*
Recommendation 4*
2.281* The committee recommends that Civil Aviation Safety Regulation
(CASR) Part 61 ensure that all prospective regular public transport (RPT) pilots
be required to complete substantial course-based training in multi-crew
operations and resource management (non-technical skills) and human factors
training prior to, or in reasonable proximity to, initial endorsement training; the
committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA)
expedite, and assign the highest priority to, the implementation of CASR Part 61.*
Recommendation 5*
2.282* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA) ensure that Part 61 of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations currently
being reviewed place sufficient weight on multi-engine aeroplane experience as
opposed to the current recognition of glider and ultra-light experience.*
Recommendation 6*
2.283* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA) be required to undertake a risk assessment of current simulator training
to assess whether the extent, aims and scope of such training is being utilised to
achieve optimum safety outcomes rather than minimum compliance objectives.*
Recommendation 7*
2.288* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Authority (CASA)
expedite, and assign the highest priority to, the implementation of Civil Aviation
Safety Regulations (CASR) Part 141 'Flight Training Operators' and Part 142
'Training and Checking Operators'.*
Recommendation 8*
2.296* The committee recommends that the Government require the
Productivity Commission or another suitable body to undertake a review of the
current and future supply of pilots in Australia, with particular reference to the
general aviation and cadet training pathways, and HECS HELP and VET FEE-
HELP arrangements.*
Recommendation 9*
2.299* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA), the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) and Australian
aviation operators review the final findings of France's Bureau of Investigation
and Analysis into Air France 447, including consideration of how it may apply in
the Australian context. Subject to those findings, the committee may seek the
approval of the Senate to conduct a further hearing in relation to the matter.*
Recommendation 10*
3.146* The committee recommends that the Minister for Infrastructure and
Transport provide a report to Parliament every six months outlining the
progress of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's (CASA) regulatory reforms and
specifying reform priorities, consultative processes and implementation targets
for the following 12-month period.*
Recommendation 11*
3.147* The committee recommends that the Government undertake a review of
the funding to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) to ensure that there is
sufficient specific funding to support an expedited regulatory reform process.*
Recommendation 12*
3.149* The committee recommends that, as an ongoing measure, the
Government provide the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) with specific
funding to enable it to offer salaries that are competitive with industry; in
addition, or as an alternative, the Government should consider implementing
formal mechanisms for the sharing of expertise between industry and CASA.*
Recommendation 13*
3.158* The committee recommends that the Transport Safety Investigation
Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010 not be passed.*
Recommendation 14*
3.163* The committee recommends that the current prescriptive approach needs
to be supplemented with a general obligation to report whenever the 'responsible
person' believes that there is an urgent safety risk that must be addressed.*
Recommendation 15*
3.164* The committee recommends that the Australian Transport and Safety
Bureau (ATSB) review its approach to the investigation and publication of
human factors with a view to achieving a more robust and useful learning tool
for the industry.*
Recommendation 16*
3.165* The committee recommends that the Australian Transport and Safety
Bureau (ATSB) review existing processes for the categorisation of aviation events
to ensure that miscategorisation is minimised and opportunities for system
improvement are not lost.*
Recommendation 17*
3.166* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA), in concern with Australian Transport and Safety Bureau (ATSB),
consider developing and publishing guidance on model reporting to minimise
understatement of the actual or potential significance of aviation events.*
Recommendation 18*
3.169* The committee recommends that Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA)
require operators to observe the highest standards of incident reporting from
their personnel and provide appropriate training as part of the safety promotion
function of their SMS.*
Recommendation 19*
The committee recommends that, in order to enhance 'just culture' and open
reporting of incidents, aviation operators should ensure that their relevant
managers are adequately trained in procedural fairness.*
Recommendation 20*
4.89* The committee recommends that, following the release of the International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) fatigue guidelines, the Civil Aviation Safety
Authority (CASA) should expedite necessary changes and/or additions to the
regulations governing flght and cabin crew fatigue risk management as a priority*
Recommendation 21*
4.90* The committee recommends that, in the event that the International Civil
Aviation Organization (ICAO) fatigue guidelines do not extend to cabin crew
duty limits and fatigue risk management more broadly, the Government should
amend the Civil Aviation Act 1998 to include cabin crew fatigue risk management
under the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's (CASA) regulatory oversight.*
Recommendation 22*
4.92* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA) specify the type of training and amount of training required for cabin
crew, including mandatory English language standards.*
Recommendation 1*
2.278* The committee is of the view that an ATPL should also be required for
first officers in high capacity regular public transport (RPT) jet aircraft such as
Boeing 737, A320 and other aircraft of similar or greater capacity, and that
consideration be given to implementing this as a standard.*
Recommendation 2*
2.279* The committee recommends that for non-jet operations which employ
low-experience first officers, operators be required to provide enhanced
supervision and mentoring schemes to offset such lack of experience.*
Recommendation 3*
2.280* The committee recommends that Air Operators Certificate (AOC)
holders be required to develop and implement 'green on green' policy positions
relating to the use of low experience pilots in RPT operations, to maximise,
wherever possible, the collective experience level of flight crew.*
Recommendation 4*
2.281* The committee recommends that Civil Aviation Safety Regulation
(CASR) Part 61 ensure that all prospective regular public transport (RPT) pilots
be required to complete substantial course-based training in multi-crew
operations and resource management (non-technical skills) and human factors
training prior to, or in reasonable proximity to, initial endorsement training; the
committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA)
expedite, and assign the highest priority to, the implementation of CASR Part 61.*
Recommendation 5*
2.282* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA) ensure that Part 61 of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations currently
being reviewed place sufficient weight on multi-engine aeroplane experience as
opposed to the current recognition of glider and ultra-light experience.*
Recommendation 6*
2.283* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA) be required to undertake a risk assessment of current simulator training
to assess whether the extent, aims and scope of such training is being utilised to
achieve optimum safety outcomes rather than minimum compliance objectives.*
Recommendation 7*
2.288* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Authority (CASA)
expedite, and assign the highest priority to, the implementation of Civil Aviation
Safety Regulations (CASR) Part 141 'Flight Training Operators' and Part 142
'Training and Checking Operators'.*
Recommendation 8*
2.296* The committee recommends that the Government require the
Productivity Commission or another suitable body to undertake a review of the
current and future supply of pilots in Australia, with particular reference to the
general aviation and cadet training pathways, and HECS HELP and VET FEE-
HELP arrangements.*
Recommendation 9*
2.299* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA), the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) and Australian
aviation operators review the final findings of France's Bureau of Investigation
and Analysis into Air France 447, including consideration of how it may apply in
the Australian context. Subject to those findings, the committee may seek the
approval of the Senate to conduct a further hearing in relation to the matter.*
Recommendation 10*
3.146* The committee recommends that the Minister for Infrastructure and
Transport provide a report to Parliament every six months outlining the
progress of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's (CASA) regulatory reforms and
specifying reform priorities, consultative processes and implementation targets
for the following 12-month period.*
Recommendation 11*
3.147* The committee recommends that the Government undertake a review of
the funding to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) to ensure that there is
sufficient specific funding to support an expedited regulatory reform process.*
Recommendation 12*
3.149* The committee recommends that, as an ongoing measure, the
Government provide the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) with specific
funding to enable it to offer salaries that are competitive with industry; in
addition, or as an alternative, the Government should consider implementing
formal mechanisms for the sharing of expertise between industry and CASA.*
Recommendation 13*
3.158* The committee recommends that the Transport Safety Investigation
Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010 not be passed.*
Recommendation 14*
3.163* The committee recommends that the current prescriptive approach needs
to be supplemented with a general obligation to report whenever the 'responsible
person' believes that there is an urgent safety risk that must be addressed.*
Recommendation 15*
3.164* The committee recommends that the Australian Transport and Safety
Bureau (ATSB) review its approach to the investigation and publication of
human factors with a view to achieving a more robust and useful learning tool
for the industry.*
Recommendation 16*
3.165* The committee recommends that the Australian Transport and Safety
Bureau (ATSB) review existing processes for the categorisation of aviation events
to ensure that miscategorisation is minimised and opportunities for system
improvement are not lost.*
Recommendation 17*
3.166* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA), in concern with Australian Transport and Safety Bureau (ATSB),
consider developing and publishing guidance on model reporting to minimise
understatement of the actual or potential significance of aviation events.*
Recommendation 18*
3.169* The committee recommends that Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA)
require operators to observe the highest standards of incident reporting from
their personnel and provide appropriate training as part of the safety promotion
function of their SMS.*
Recommendation 19*
The committee recommends that, in order to enhance 'just culture' and open
reporting of incidents, aviation operators should ensure that their relevant
managers are adequately trained in procedural fairness.*
Recommendation 20*
4.89* The committee recommends that, following the release of the International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) fatigue guidelines, the Civil Aviation Safety
Authority (CASA) should expedite necessary changes and/or additions to the
regulations governing flght and cabin crew fatigue risk management as a priority*
Recommendation 21*
4.90* The committee recommends that, in the event that the International Civil
Aviation Organization (ICAO) fatigue guidelines do not extend to cabin crew
duty limits and fatigue risk management more broadly, the Government should
amend the Civil Aviation Act 1998 to include cabin crew fatigue risk management
under the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's (CASA) regulatory oversight.*
Recommendation 22*
4.92* The committee recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
(CASA) specify the type of training and amount of training required for cabin
crew, including mandatory English language standards.*
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Well recommendation #1 and #22 if brought in would basically firetruck Jetstar locally...
We all know the next step is to move the entire company overseas (read Nz or sg) and operate into Australia to bypass such ludicrous rules - how dare we try to improve the safety of our industry at the detriment of his bonus...
Sounds like some good stuff - and a 12 month timeframe would be awesome. Just worried that with the recommendation of expediting andincreasing the budget to allow for the changes (if accepted and acted upon) would just line the beaurocrats pockets in the ivory tower rather than filter down to an actual safety and beneificial industry outcome.
I think pprune and the last few years of aviation have turned me into a giant cynical bastard... But then again the proof is in the pudding...
We all know the next step is to move the entire company overseas (read Nz or sg) and operate into Australia to bypass such ludicrous rules - how dare we try to improve the safety of our industry at the detriment of his bonus...
Sounds like some good stuff - and a 12 month timeframe would be awesome. Just worried that with the recommendation of expediting andincreasing the budget to allow for the changes (if accepted and acted upon) would just line the beaurocrats pockets in the ivory tower rather than filter down to an actual safety and beneificial industry outcome.
I think pprune and the last few years of aviation have turned me into a giant cynical bastard... But then again the proof is in the pudding...
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What a stupid recommendation. Generally people have much more than 1500hrs before they have the requirements of an ATPL - especially if they have lots of semi-relevant turbine copilot time. i.e. the real requirement for some pilots is now 2500hrs TT (or alternatively 1500hrs in less relevant single pilot ops).
And all this based on a round table discussion of opinions - no emperical data whatsoever was presented for this position. It's like the sharemarket - lets just follow the USA.
I doubt that CASA will wholly follow through such a simplistic and poorly thought through recommendation.
And all this based on a round table discussion of opinions - no emperical data whatsoever was presented for this position. It's like the sharemarket - lets just follow the USA.
I doubt that CASA will wholly follow through such a simplistic and poorly thought through recommendation.
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1.10
During the course of the inquiry, the committee received a report from a witness, who had provided evidence to the committee on an in camera basis, that the person had been subject to a penalty or disadvantage on account of the evidence that person provided to the committee.
During the course of the inquiry, the committee received a report from a witness, who had provided evidence to the committee on an in camera basis, that the person had been subject to a penalty or disadvantage on account of the evidence that person provided to the committee.
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Sack Joyce, Sack Gillard.
Put the Champagne away lads.
Suggest reading the document in its entirety. Some cringe worthy stuff in there courtesy of the greasy slimy pole.
Don't forget the Chairmans Lounge, the Grange and the iPads. Yesterdays infomercial session at the National Press Club is a great example of the true power of big business in this putridly corrupt country we have here. How did you like the round of applause or the strong heavy handed questions on offer? Whoa it was infomercial 101. I thought the Malaysian choir where going to come out for a minute there. I mean the guy just announced that he's sending jobs and tax dollars overseas and he got a round of applause! Wheres GT the big fella?
Gillard and Albanese I'm sure like the chairmans lounge and a good drop of RED when it suits them. Senator Xenophon and co have a fight on their hands.
Worse comes to worse just set your watch on the first Qantasia to become part of a hill.
Qantasia - The spirit of Malaysia
Suggest reading the document in its entirety. Some cringe worthy stuff in there courtesy of the greasy slimy pole.
Don't forget the Chairmans Lounge, the Grange and the iPads. Yesterdays infomercial session at the National Press Club is a great example of the true power of big business in this putridly corrupt country we have here. How did you like the round of applause or the strong heavy handed questions on offer? Whoa it was infomercial 101. I thought the Malaysian choir where going to come out for a minute there. I mean the guy just announced that he's sending jobs and tax dollars overseas and he got a round of applause! Wheres GT the big fella?
Gillard and Albanese I'm sure like the chairmans lounge and a good drop of RED when it suits them. Senator Xenophon and co have a fight on their hands.
Worse comes to worse just set your watch on the first Qantasia to become part of a hill.
Qantasia - The spirit of Malaysia
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 23rd Jun 2011 at 12:44.
It seems clear that the intention is to stop low hour cadets from ending up in the cockpits on high capacity jets like A320s while not posing any restriction on REX. It seems REX have done a good job at fooling the senators with their "major pilot shortage" 3 years ago.
Perhaps the threshold will be MTOW > 15000KG or passenger capacity > 50PAX.
The law will clearly have to specify numerical values...anyone have an educated opinion on where the cut off values may be?
Perhaps the threshold will be MTOW > 15000KG or passenger capacity > 50PAX.
The law will clearly have to specify numerical values...anyone have an educated opinion on where the cut off values may be?
Last edited by mikewil; 23rd Jun 2011 at 07:54.
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Well, I am no expert, but it seems to me that any effort to ignore recommendation 1, subsequent to an incident/accident, will be pretty hard to explain away.
Mr. Hat, I share your cynicism, but not to your extent. This is now on the public record. In addition, recommendation 9, IMHO, is a blinder if you read between the lines.
Sunfish, over to you!
Mr. Hat, I share your cynicism, but not to your extent. This is now on the public record. In addition, recommendation 9, IMHO, is a blinder if you read between the lines.
Sunfish, over to you!
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2.118 AIPA expressed the view that, in fact, cadet schemes could be acting as a disincentive to prospective pilots due to the associated costs.115 Mr Bruce Buchanan, the Chief Executive Officer of Jetstar, however, asserted that cadet schemes offered another route for entry into the pilot profession. Mr Buchanan stated:
No good training system exists such as that which universities provide for doctors and lawyers. For a young person trying to become a pilot, there is a huge cost barrier to get into this field. We are trying to create mechanisms where people can get into this field, where they can afford to get into it no matter what their socioeconomic background is and where they can get to really good salaries very quickly.
This must be a joke...
No good training system exists such as that which universities provide for doctors and lawyers. For a young person trying to become a pilot, there is a huge cost barrier to get into this field. We are trying to create mechanisms where people can get into this field, where they can afford to get into it no matter what their socioeconomic background is and where they can get to really good salaries very quickly.
This must be a joke...
The recommendation 1 is the key to so much in our profession. Its interesting that we all have different interpretations!!
I read it as each crew member that operates a jet aircraft operated RPT service will need an ATPL. The key words being 'high capacity' and 'similar'.
I read it as each crew member that operates a jet aircraft operated RPT service will need an ATPL. The key words being 'high capacity' and 'similar'.
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Number 5, multi engine experience may make some rather positive changes, for example, if one needed 500 multi command to hold an ATPL, that would be a nice shot in the arm for rural general aviation.
It would also roger REX and Qlinks's grand plan.
What has happened today is not some senate wish list, like a teenage girl wanting a pony, it is more of a direction that will be followed, plus or minus some theatrics in session.
I believe the orange cancer just got three fat ministerial fingers in the bum, no lube, the finer details will present themselves shortly, I am certain CASA will take the instructions to the most restrictive interpretation possible.
It would also roger REX and Qlinks's grand plan.
What has happened today is not some senate wish list, like a teenage girl wanting a pony, it is more of a direction that will be followed, plus or minus some theatrics in session.
I believe the orange cancer just got three fat ministerial fingers in the bum, no lube, the finer details will present themselves shortly, I am certain CASA will take the instructions to the most restrictive interpretation possible.
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Howabout, believe it or not I put a big old filter on for most of my posts so I don't give tailwheel and co a nightmare or heartattack!
Have you followed the police corruption thing in Victoria? This country is absolutely full to the brim with it, top to bottom my friend. You and I are on the receiving end of it day in day out. You just don't notice it anymore as its become part of life.
Its all about big business and QF is as big as it gets. This has an effect on them and they ain't going to take it lying down.
Xenophon is one of the few that stands for something. He's got one of those rare body parts called a spine and other features such as intelligence and integrity. He works whats right not whats popular - he's seriously out of place here. Unfortunately for his causes he doesn't engage in popularity contests and he doesn't keep on the right side of the power brokers. You know, the type that orchestrate questions at the National Press Club.
I'd better stop I'm starting to warm up.
Qantasia - The Spirit of Malaysia
Have you followed the police corruption thing in Victoria? This country is absolutely full to the brim with it, top to bottom my friend. You and I are on the receiving end of it day in day out. You just don't notice it anymore as its become part of life.
Its all about big business and QF is as big as it gets. This has an effect on them and they ain't going to take it lying down.
Xenophon is one of the few that stands for something. He's got one of those rare body parts called a spine and other features such as intelligence and integrity. He works whats right not whats popular - he's seriously out of place here. Unfortunately for his causes he doesn't engage in popularity contests and he doesn't keep on the right side of the power brokers. You know, the type that orchestrate questions at the National Press Club.
I'd better stop I'm starting to warm up.
Qantasia - The Spirit of Malaysia
The trouble is Mr. Hat Senator X is also only one week away from losing some of his influence in the Parliament!
I'm not sure the 'tree hugging' Senators coming in are going to have the same sympathy for the workers on the rockface of the aviation sector.
I'm not sure the 'tree hugging' Senators coming in are going to have the same sympathy for the workers on the rockface of the aviation sector.
Last edited by Sarcs; 23rd Jun 2011 at 11:00.