Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Merged: Senate Inquiry

Old 5th Oct 2014, 21:53
  #2241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
I know when a mosquito lands on a testicle one develops a sense that not every problem can be solved with violence. If that's any help.
Frank Arouet is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2014, 13:14
  #2242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 53
Are our skies for sale or safety?

...could be both. Can Harmony & Unity be the adopted approach to a "new culture" (buzz word of the year) between the Aviation Industry and the Gov. Sure it can.
Tell 'em they're dreamin'. So far seems to have worked. But as an important, integral part of our countrys' function, Aviation is a massive clog in the wheel of momentum, which sadly, in my humble opinion, has been kicked in the guts. Too many times it seems.

With Fair Comment as my intent and no motivation for harm to another's name or title.
Just a plea. Voices to be heard, justice, fairness and harmony to be the catalyst that creates the cultural change so desperately needed within an incredibly important industry for our country.

The voices can be heard, the minds have submitted, committees reviewed, Senate Recommendations ignored.
The "Independent" review the Canadians did. Which I was told, needs to be edited and I was referred to the ATSB.
Albos white paper
Etc

Aviation is LINKED to so very much.
Such as:
Transport of the travelling public
Agriculture
Aeromedical
Small business
Postal/Cargo
Investigation

Almost everyone is affected with aviation. Safety and a portal between industry and Gov needs to be established.
A unity of dedicated, competent people striving for the best possible outcome of safety and business success. Standing by moral ethics.
Having the ICC within the same department as CASA, makes no sense. No offence intended.
Perhaps just a thought to thy one in thy fort???

Observation, reading facts, conversations and comprehending the enormity of the problem regarding Australian Aviation Safety, Regulation, Investigation and cost to the smaller businesses, takes my breath away.
If I can see so clearly the issues, I must ask the question. Why hasn't my own Government addressed this?
Especially as I have pleaded with them numerous times with the same rehearsed response. The coldness in the voices that were suppose to protect us has been frosty. The concern afterwards, puppetry, thunderbird style. Assistance. Zip. Just five years of many, many unanswered questions.
I didn't vote because I pondered and thought "why"? I lay here in pain after surgery from the crash. From what I've absorbed within and outside the walls of the house, is drowned out by incompetence. Paid the fine though. Your welcome.
The Statutory Rights for CASA in 96. Catch up time maybe? Compare your phone and the technology. Compare small business and overseas takeovers constructing Monopolies from 96. Big difference. Yep, thought so.

Another call, most recent, to DP dept. Oct 14.

Usual blurb. Canadian autumn, end of year...

I ask something along the lines of...

That is too long for a report, why?
Why is the Canadian report being edited by CASA and ATSB?
Is that Independent?
You are the department of the skies. Can't you hear the Industry?
I'm a Nurse. I can hear them.

Along the lines of:
Oh, how are you
Not good
Who is the insurer
Don't know. It's not about that.
When is your matter?
Who cares? I have not fought just for money, but for this to never happen again.
What stabs me in the stomach each day is the injustice and nil assistance from my own Government. When I see the photo of Truss and Sharp (ex-Tpt Mini) CEO REX/Pel-Air, holding hands cutting a cake in the shape of an aeroplane, near where NGA (yes, Pel-Air Jet) broke on impact. Churns my stomach every day. This should never happen to another. (As man in the back of the room clears throat, no really!)
Why aren't you listening to the Industry?
This is so unAustralian, it makes me sad.

Ok, well, like we said, the reports will be out. Roger that. Blah-static. Out.


If this continues, the era will be known as so close, yet the fort of Aviation held up by those that choose to ignore facts triumph.
That, my dear friends here, fellow nurses, pilots, doctors, paramedics, agricultural, small aviation business, passenger transport.
Royal Attention needed maybe?
Who knows?

Oh yeah, the Aviation Industry Does.

Q&abc: Interested? WT, TA, MM, AA, MD, JM & just to add some spice, EH.
An audience with industry.

Compromise, awareness and facing the cyclic and added current issues is a challenge needed. Scrap the statutory "rights". Listen to the industry and learn from the bloody mistakes made.

It's an embarrassment.

As today is/was Labor Day. Which represents the essence of why impetus momentum can create change, calmly. I thought a gentle reminder to this side necessary, or maybe the other side of the middle could challenge.

Aviation safety and regulation needs experts with integrity as such a specialised field, connects to so many other variables. As mentioned.

I believe, at least some very important questions need to be asked?

Zig

Last edited by Ziggychick; 6th Oct 2014 at 17:13. Reason: Tired of it all.
Ziggychick is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2014, 19:27
  #2243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Board - to tears..

There is a question or two scheduled for the upcoming BRB - AGM (which believe it or not is quite a serious affair).

5) What criteria and selection process has been used to select the new CASA board members?

6) Who was involved in that selection process?

These are important questions, to which accurate answers must be provided – if Truss is to maintain credibility. Because even a hint of 'cronyism' or board stacking will blow the few remaining shreds of the Abbott government credibility on red and green tape reduction and regulatory reform -a la Truss - anyway. For example
GFA AGM – "The big news is the resignation of our President Anita Taylor."
That statement can be read two ways;

Eyrie "To get back to the discussion at hand I'll re-iterate that the GFA operates under a self ADMINISTRATION not self regulation model. While the GFA may make the rules CASA reserves the right to approve them or otherwise. To make the relationship quite clear the GFA receives currently about $150,000 per year from CASA to administer gliding on CASA's behalf. The GFA is a bought and paid for sub-contractor."
Eyrie "Over the last 10 years or so the GFA and CASA have colluded to make flying gliders or motorgliders on a PPL, impossible. It helps to know that some of the CASA people involved in this were enthusiastic GFA supporters.
IF; for example, the appointment of Ms. Taylor to the board had been a 'sponsored' event, a Murky Machiavellian Masterstroke, designed to load the board with those who had 'worked harmoniously' with CASA before coming to the board, it throws a big spanner into the industry works.

Now, no one is saying, as yet, that Taylor is a complete Casaphile. BUT a look through the GFA 'paper-work', performance and track record suggests a 'good' working relationship with the regulator. There is a fairly disgruntled, disunited organisation, heaving a sigh of relief and struggling to deal with the daemons left behind; such as licensing issues, reduced safety culture, and a disillusioned, diminishing membership. Enough smoke to legitimately ask, is there a fire?.

The board appointment is not as yet, seen to be another "Libby-gate" but, it does go someway toward making mugs of the IOS. If, that is, we sit back and naively, without questioning the appointment process, allow the Murky Machiavellian team to hand pick, within a closed process, a bored which will not rock the boat, rattle the tea cups or ask embarrassing questions. If this is so, then Boyd is indeed isolated and rendered nugatory. We know his history, credentials and attitudes toward the reform of CASA: but what is known of the others? Not much just yet, more by the BRB AGM.

Acquiring the answers should provide an 'interesting' debate; there are only six slots on the bored, the MM crew have at least two, solidly covered - Hawke and Danos, if either Taylor, Cox or Smith are 'hand picked' then the voting is at least tied. A best result of MM 3 – IOS 3, of course essentially neuters the democratic process. Have we been gulled - again; I rather think so. It's a very wicked world we live in. Mugs – the lot of us.

For example, would the coppers investigating a crime send their case against a known villain to that villain and say – "Have a look at this mate; then tell us the bits you don't agree with and we'll take them out, OK". No, of course they wouldn't. So why is it that our 'independent' tax payer funded report into the ATSB has been sent 'for technical' editing to the ATSB – before being eventually published??.

Aside - Have you noticed the mutt running the Canuck TSB never uses a 'date'; not ever. It's always "early Spring" or "late Autumn" or "mid Winter". It's fast becoming a Midsummer Nights Dream, which is of course, a fantasy comedy...

Toot toot

Last edited by Kharon; 6th Oct 2014 at 20:32. Reason: Farce, arse and no bloody class.
Kharon is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2014, 20:17
  #2244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: In my Swag
Posts: 495
Following on from the PAIN reference I did some research on the CASA board.
Citizen Advocacy
Ziggy chick, if you go to QandA site and click on contact we can ask for panel members and questions.
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/contact-us.htm
Eddie Dean is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2014, 21:40
  #2245 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,383
Bought and paid for

Have to admit Kharon I had my suspicions.

If what you allude to is correct, then once again the tail wags the dog.

Makes a complete mockery of what a board is for, and perhaps could be a fair indication of just how corrupt the bureaucrats have become.

May as well appoint monkeys to the board, at least then it would only cost peanuts.

At what point does the Miniscule declare, due to the collapse of aviation activity in Australia, that because there is no longer an industry to oversee CAsA will be disbanded, CAsA staff made redundant except for a small office at Mascot for oversight of foreign carriers.


DUHH!!...was that the reason Terry was given an A380 endo???

Last edited by thorn bird; 6th Oct 2014 at 22:17. Reason: Light bulb moment
thorn bird is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 00:59
  #2246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Go west young man
Posts: 1,732
M&M RED stacking the deck??

Kharon - The board appointment is not as yet, seen to be another "Libby-gate" but, it does go someway toward making mugs of the IOS. If, that is, we sit back and naively, without questioning the appointment process, allow the Murky Machiavellian team to hand pick, within a closed process, a bored which will not rock the boat, rattle the tea cups or ask embarrassing questions. If this is so, then Boyd is indeed isolated and rendered nugatory. We know his history, credentials and attitudes toward the reform of CASA: but what is known of the others? Not much just yet, more by the BRB AGM.
If true another most disturbing revelation i.e. old pumpkin head RED at it again...FFS..

On first glance the GFA Forsyth submission seemed quite critical of the CAsA but on 2nd & 3rd reviews it would seem that there are elements that suggest collaboration and a certain 'wet lettuce' approach when compared to say the AAAA submission??
Concerns:
Four principle areas of concern exist:
1. CASA does not employ a transparent cost/benefit analysis of its risk management approach to justify the cost impacts that regulation imposes on the Australia’s aviation industry and its participants.
2. CASA’s recent resort to unilateral and unfair action against those having a track record of worthy performance by suddenly and without recourse, suspending critical delegations was not congruent with a just, cooperative and properly risk assessed working association.
3. Inconsistency and contradictions exist within CASA in relation to the meaning of rules and interpretation by those applying the rules. It evidences CASA's conflicting/competing functions and goals of safety outcomes, regulation and enforcement.
4. Applying administrative and bureaucratic requirements, which may be appropriate for a major airline, to sport aviation organisations which have a very low risk impact on the travelling public. CASA is resorting to a punitive approach in enforcing compliance to these administrative requirements.
What is somewhat bemusing is the last couple of paragraphs by Ms Taylor...

"...Thank you for your consideration and appreciation of the importance of the Gliding Federation of Australia in the sport and recreational aviation sector. I and/or our staff are available to answer any specific questions of the review panel, or provide evidence to support your research.

I am hopeful that we will be given the opportunity to review your final recommendations prior to publication so that we can respond to any perceived gaps.

Yours sincerely,

Anita Taylor President..."

I and/or our staff seems to suggest preferably "I"..

...given the opportunity to review your final recommendations prior to publication so that we can respond to any perceived gaps...

Errr...why exactly should the GFA be given any preferential treatment to any of the other 268 submitters.. Besides everyone was given the opportunity to respond after the event, so did the GFA take up this opportunity and if so can we get a copy??

Oh well time will tell but I do find it quite surprising the number of GFA members that felt the need to make their own submissions, some of which were less than conciliatory of the GFA submission...

Moving on and back to the subject of the PelAir cover-up and I thought it would be a good time to reflect on a Senator X presser & speech given back in March...:
Government soft on Pel-Air findings
20th March 2014

The Commonwealth Government has let down the travelling public by failing to fully implement the findings of a highly critical Senate inquiry into aviation safety, Independent Senator for South Australia, Nick Xenophon, said today.

The Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Committee’s report into aviation accident investigations (the Pel-Air Report) found serious failures on the part of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) regarding the investigation of the ditching of Pel-Air VH-NGA off Norfolk Island in 2009.

“There are very serious matters raised in this report, including how effectively aviation operators are regulated,” Nick said. “CASA and the ATSB seem more interested in protecting themselves than protecting the Australian public.”

Senator Xenophon said the Government had failed to look at the bigger picture in the report, which shows serious systemic failures in both the ATSB and CASA.

“For the most part, the Government seems to accept that the current processes and systems are enough to make sure the ATSB and CASA are working properly,” Nick said. “But the evidence in this report clearly shows that’s not happening.”

“The Government shouldn’t take assurances from the ATSB or CASA at face value.”

Senator Xenophon said he hoped the Aviation Safety Regulation Review, established by Transport Minister Warren Truss, would back up the findings of the committee. The ATSB’s investigative processes, including its report into the Pel-Air ditching, are also being reviewed by the Canadian Transport Safety Board (TSB). However, Senator Xenophon fears the TSB review could be a whitewash because of its limited terms of reference.

“I hope the committee’s report has opened the door for serious change,” Nick said. “I believe the independent review will vindicate its findings, and I hope the Government will have the courage to act on them.”

Ziggy chick, if you go to QandA site and click on contact we can ask for panel members and questions.
Contact Us | Q&A | ABC TV
Great idea Eddie D... So a natural inclusion to the QANDA panel would have to be Senator X but who else would the IOS want to question??

While on Q&A.....a reminder that it is only 2 weeks to estimates so now would be a good time to start lobbying your favourite Senators...

MTF...

Ps M&M mate while your busy apparently stacking the deck....how about getting one of your minions (in the interest of transparency & consistency) to publish the responses to the Forsyth report; & FFS can't you put a call through to the TSBC and ask them to get a wriggle on...

Last edited by Sarcs; 7th Oct 2014 at 01:10.
Sarcs is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 01:19
  #2247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
a reminder that it is only 2 weeks to estimates so now would be a good time to start lobbying your favourite Senators...
For what purpose? This thread always seems to be about the next great thing that will finally get CASA sorted out..Senate Inquiries (plural) Estimates,Truss review,TSB reports now more estimates.

There is ample evidence of CASA incompetence Part 61 being just the latest example. The ATSB has been put into its bureaucratic place by its Commissioner and his competency has been questioned by the Senate. The independent review by the TSB has been neutered.

I don't have any answers, just concerns about what will be required to have this situation changed. I once thought that the Senate was the solution but the limits of the power of the Senate have been successfully exposed by those who know how to play the game.

Nobody in the political sphere or the public domain, outside of the aviation
industry, could care less. As long as they get their cheap flights or Qantas Club membership they don't consider that a problem exists.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 02:01
  #2248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,383
So Leftie are you saying, "Move along, move along, nothing to see here."?

Might as well pack up boys and girls, aviation is cancelled.
thorn bird is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 03:04
  #2249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
Yep TB your primary school reading levels are holding you in good stead.

Take your rose coloured group think glasses off and reread the last 5 years or so of this thread and point to the time that anything has changed after an Inquiry, Estimates etc etc etc.....My original question was in response to Sarcs
a reminder that it is only 2 weeks to estimates so now would be a good time to start lobbying your favourite Senators...
Again I ask it, and you can answer it or ignore it, but for what purpose should we start lobbying? If you think progress is being made I applaud your optimism, if you think asking the question is a form of acquiescence to the way CASA operates then even accusing you of a Year 3 reading level is generous.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 03:53
  #2250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
So everyone. Give up, continued effort to pressure the regulator is futile. It upsets them.

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 7th Oct 2014 at 05:23. Reason: A failure as a marine PhD but continues to swim against the current.
Frank Arouet is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 04:09
  #2251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
Frank: the voice of Dory

continued effort to pressure the regulator is futile.
Is that what this thread is Frank? Good to see its working so well given that the introduction of Part 61 demonstrated CASA's ability to listen to constructive criticism.

Then again I know you have the memory span of a Pacific regal blue tang so you probably think that all this estimates stuff is all brand new.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 06:08
  #2252 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,383
So Leftie, your contribution to the debate is there's no point lobbying for change.

Thanks for that, your contribution noted.
thorn bird is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 06:25
  #2253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
As opposed to your lobbying which to me just looks like whinging:

When corruption and incompetence is positively condoned by your government, who apparently has no control over you anyway, why on earth would you give a damn about the industry you regulate?
From what I can tell most of the commentary ranges from mild indignation to lets tear down the system. Even UITA has given up counting the number of hits on the thread. My commentary was on the purpose of lobbying a politician prior to another Estimates hearing. If you think that pages and pages of the same thing being stated is lobbying then I suggest that you and Frank start a lobbying consultancy and see how far you get.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 07:04
  #2254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,383
So what do you suggest leftie? anything? or give it away.
thorn bird is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 08:10
  #2255 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
If I have to come up there -

OI ! – Knock it off; Lefty was only expressing what many in industry think: defining the sense of helplessness when much needed change seemed within strike; that now is being not only denied, but wilfully withheld. CASA are Toast, they know it, we know it. ATSB is basket case; they know it, we know it. Every fool in the market place knows it; except the flamin' minuscule responsible for it.

Truss is sitting in a 'Budda' like trance, fiddling (with the gods only know what) while Rome burns.

It was never, not ever, going to be easy to get a government to admit it was wrong, hired the wrong man and then threw great wads of money at the 'problem - to try and fix it; and lost the bet, big time (with big industry bucks; bye the bye).

Minuscule – not every one wants "government money" : we will be shortly witnessing a holocaust – and YOU Sir, pressed the button.

Sack the Murky Machiavellian crew; hire an "administrator" to clean up the unholy mess CASA is in; appoint an experienced deputy for "Airline" and an expert deputy for "GA" (bless Mike Smith, poor sod), remove the artificial, self serving barricades and be known as the man who saved Australian aviation.

It's a piece of cake – just stop buggering about with the clerical staff and start listening to those with blood, sweat and years of tears invested in the industry. Believe me, there is more wisdom in a country aero club about 'matters aeronautical' than you will find in the self serving "department" of smoke and mirrors.

Good first post Lefty – you nicely capture industry 'angst', next step resistance. Tell 'em stick 61 where the sun don't shine, take it away and only bring it back when it is acceptable and comprehensible to industry. We did, when all said and done; pay for the wretched thing.

Now then Wodger 2 – bugger off and fix it, IT IS (as are all current antics) UNACCEPTABLE.

Selah...

Last edited by Kharon; 7th Oct 2014 at 08:20. Reason: Did I shout - did I ??? Mea culpa ? - Don't think so.
Kharon is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 09:20
  #2256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
Thankyou Kharon for actually taking the time to read my post. We don't always see eye to eye but a critical and unbiased assessment of a post is always a civilized way to proceed the discussion. I was among the many who thought that an inquiry by the Senate would resolve many issues facing the aviation industry. I thought that the Senate would be listened to and that at the very least any recommendations put forward by them would be acted upon. That was in 2010 (or 2009) and we are still facing the same system, no changes, no compromise by both sides of the political fence.

The various industry associations are starting to get a bit more vocal, so like Obi Wan they are our only hope. The only other vehicle for change is too unpleasant to contemplate but historically, the likely path.
Lookleft is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 11:51
  #2257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,383
Done good Kharon!!
thorn bird is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 21:15
  #2258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Make no mistake, our regulatory authority and it's political and bureaucratic minions are a cancer on the aviation industry. It appears it can't be cut out so it is terminal. Dick once said, before you can fix CAsA it has to be destroyed first. Just like cancer. So when we have a patient with a terminal illness, caused by incompetence and corruption of power, at the highest level, the best accepted medical therapy is to keep the patient positive, give hope where it's possible, and pray for a miracle. Nobody but the callous, (yes they live amongst us), would suggest to the patient, get over it, that he just accept the diagnosis, don't explore every avenue of cure, don't attempt to stop others from suffering the same fate and prepare himself for death. And God help us if the patient has to rely upon some organization that should have been looking after his interests in the first place to fight for him in his dying days. Some of these irritating individual splinters of the original compromised representative body's hold no aces that will help anybody in this game and pandering to them gives them faux credibility that eventually comes back as their ideas.


A pox on them all.

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 7th Oct 2014 at 21:17. Reason: I reserve the right to rant as I see appropriate.
Frank Arouet is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 22:38
  #2259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: In my Swag
Posts: 495
I contacted QandA:
Asked for Minister Truss and various senators to be on Panel to discuss senate inquiry recommendations.
Contact Us | Q&A | ABC TV
We need many people to request the same or they won't consider it topical
Eddie Dean is offline  
Old 7th Oct 2014, 22:44
  #2260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 67
You are beneath contempt Frank to use the analogy of a dying cancer patient to have a cheap shot.
Lookleft is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.