Virgin Blue A330 Jobs
Cheers Mr. Hat
I'm not saying I disagree with allowing the move or anything you've said, I'm a pilot myself! All I was questioning was the claim that from April, all courses will be Ejet, as to fill 737 FO slots (if required), they're going to allow current Ejet FOs to move to the 737 and just recruit for the Ejet.
I had a quick glance at the VBA EBA and it says in one section point blank that your first move must be to gain a promotion in rank. I was just saying that if that's the case, I can't understand why the company would change it (by April) until a new agreement is reached. i.e. they can just recruit straight to the aircraft type for which they require crew without increases their training costs. The EBA seems pretty clear but maybe some sort of variation agreement has been reached between the company and pilot council/union that hasn't yet been made aware to the pilot group officially.
I'm not saying I disagree with allowing the move or anything you've said, I'm a pilot myself! All I was questioning was the claim that from April, all courses will be Ejet, as to fill 737 FO slots (if required), they're going to allow current Ejet FOs to move to the 737 and just recruit for the Ejet.
I had a quick glance at the VBA EBA and it says in one section point blank that your first move must be to gain a promotion in rank. I was just saying that if that's the case, I can't understand why the company would change it (by April) until a new agreement is reached. i.e. they can just recruit straight to the aircraft type for which they require crew without increases their training costs. The EBA seems pretty clear but maybe some sort of variation agreement has been reached between the company and pilot council/union that hasn't yet been made aware to the pilot group officially.
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The EBA seems pretty clear but maybe some sort of variation agreement has been reached between the company and pilot council/union
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Dragun, I don't understand why they've flexed the rule for this occasion. Personally I was surprised to not see people from CX and JQ with 330 experience come into the 330 as FO's. Might be a case that they didn't want people with significant experience trying to tell the guy in the LHS how to do the job which makes sense from a gradient perspective.
My post was more related to trying to restrict people on type indefinitely by posing harsh financial penalties on them. This in my opinion would cause poor morale. IMHO people should be allowed to move to different types to broaden their experience base and allow them to suit their life stages. Understand the costs and agree with limiting them but not at the cost of professional growth. Cost savings can be achieved in many ways and education/safety/maintenance are no go zones for me.
I guess I get my back up at the relentless attempts in our industry to claw dollars off our skillset. I think we've given enough. Particularly when i see money wasted needlessly everyday in other areas. Pilot group seems to be an easy target always.
Congrats and good luck to those flying "le bus". Its a beautiful machine.
My post was more related to trying to restrict people on type indefinitely by posing harsh financial penalties on them. This in my opinion would cause poor morale. IMHO people should be allowed to move to different types to broaden their experience base and allow them to suit their life stages. Understand the costs and agree with limiting them but not at the cost of professional growth. Cost savings can be achieved in many ways and education/safety/maintenance are no go zones for me.
I guess I get my back up at the relentless attempts in our industry to claw dollars off our skillset. I think we've given enough. Particularly when i see money wasted needlessly everyday in other areas. Pilot group seems to be an easy target always.
Congrats and good luck to those flying "le bus". Its a beautiful machine.
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Morale is already low within the Ejet FO ranks due to the fact the V CFO have come over onto the 737 paid nothing for either the 777 or the 737 (only bonds) and the Ejet FOs have paid for their Ejet endorsement and the company wanted them to pay another $40-50K if they wanted to move to the 737 as an FO. So the company had to do something to fix this plus they needed to find FOs for the A330 so with the AFAP (not to sure about VIPA) an agreement was reached. There have been many emails to the pilot group over the last 3-4 months regarding this so they have been kept in the loop.
This variation in the EBA will allow movement within the 737 and Ejet FO ranks as 737 or Ejet FOs move to the A330, then it opens up FO positions on the 737, which will be filled internally buy Ejet FOs and the Ejet slots will be filled externally.
This variation in the EBA will allow movement within the 737 and Ejet FO ranks as 737 or Ejet FOs move to the A330, then it opens up FO positions on the 737, which will be filled internally buy Ejet FOs and the Ejet slots will be filled externally.
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I believe they are command endorsements and the VCFO signed up for a 30 month bond with V, yet within 24 months the lucky ones have come over onto the 737 (on another bond) and did not have to pay any of the remaining bond on the 777.
The AFAP had a meeting with JB over this and the morale problem within the Ejet FO racks. My understanding (2nd hand info) is they showed him 2 pilots who had interviews with VB 2-3 years ago. One pilot was offered employment as a Ejet FO while the other missed out. The pilot who missed out went on to get a job with V as a CFO. The V pilot was one of the lucky ones who have since joined VB on the 737. The AFAP showed JB, the Ejet pilot who had given the company 2- 3 years loyal service was financially worse off due to salary sacrificing his endorsement and his pay is $20k less than the 737 FO.
The company had to do something, hence the change from April and then perhaps fleet pay.
The AFAP had a meeting with JB over this and the morale problem within the Ejet FO racks. My understanding (2nd hand info) is they showed him 2 pilots who had interviews with VB 2-3 years ago. One pilot was offered employment as a Ejet FO while the other missed out. The pilot who missed out went on to get a job with V as a CFO. The V pilot was one of the lucky ones who have since joined VB on the 737. The AFAP showed JB, the Ejet pilot who had given the company 2- 3 years loyal service was financially worse off due to salary sacrificing his endorsement and his pay is $20k less than the 737 FO.
The company had to do something, hence the change from April and then perhaps fleet pay.
Last edited by GAFA; 29th Jan 2011 at 07:41.
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from skim reading this thread, guys at VB are worried about external type rated pilots being hired on to the a330.
what some dont seem to understand is the business model of the company that they work for. This is the business model at VB and always has been,where crew have already held a type rating or paid for their training. As i understand things, you guys still pay for your jobs? If you dont like that business model, then dont work for such companies.
I am totally against buying a job, with type ratings etc and so have never gone down this road, as all it does is totally degrade T&Cs. this erosion of T&Cs has been easy to see in Australia and nz over the last few years since virgin entered the market in Australia. If people would just stop buying their jobs, then this crap would stop, but people seem hell bent in buying their jobs, when there is no need to.
Im sorry if this seems harsh, but dont complain if you wanted to buy a job to fly a jet and then complain when the company expands and needs more crew. I understand that it is a heavier aircraft, more pay etc, but that is not the business model of your company to pay for your training. If folk stop paying for their training, then you will be able to make a change. Has your union considered a employment ban, until you get seniority and training paid for?
what some dont seem to understand is the business model of the company that they work for. This is the business model at VB and always has been,where crew have already held a type rating or paid for their training. As i understand things, you guys still pay for your jobs? If you dont like that business model, then dont work for such companies.
I am totally against buying a job, with type ratings etc and so have never gone down this road, as all it does is totally degrade T&Cs. this erosion of T&Cs has been easy to see in Australia and nz over the last few years since virgin entered the market in Australia. If people would just stop buying their jobs, then this crap would stop, but people seem hell bent in buying their jobs, when there is no need to.
Im sorry if this seems harsh, but dont complain if you wanted to buy a job to fly a jet and then complain when the company expands and needs more crew. I understand that it is a heavier aircraft, more pay etc, but that is not the business model of your company to pay for your training. If folk stop paying for their training, then you will be able to make a change. Has your union considered a employment ban, until you get seniority and training paid for?
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Personally couldn't care less if they bring in DE experienced/endorsed 330 FOs. Captains is another kettle of fish.
Its the company that wanted internals as I understand it.
That explains it GAFA cheers.
Its the company that wanted internals as I understand it.
That explains it GAFA cheers.
Ah no Humber... apart from some management appointments no external crew for the A330 at this stage(probably never), unless you count V Aus as external. The focus is on the totally inconsistent approach to movement between fleets and/or group companies (re V Cruise FO 737 slots at the expense of Ejet FOs etc. etc.)
The current 777 crz fo's have all been told they are getting 777 command endorsements over the next 12 months. Instead of their current fo endorsements.
Last edited by Visual Landing; 29th Jan 2011 at 22:24.
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"They have all been told they are getting command endorsements over the next 12 months".
Who's been told what command in what?
The 777 CRZ FO's who have come to the 737?
Command in 12 months?
Who's been told what command in what?
The 777 CRZ FO's who have come to the 737?
Command in 12 months?
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Why is it, this always becomes an "us and them" debate with regards to VB and Voz?(not just on this forum) to help put a bit of light on on the subject..........
When i joined Voz as a CRFO i was given a co-pilot endorsement. I was told that i was bonded for 30 months. I was told that i may have to go to VB as a part of my carer progression but was also lead to believe there might be a chance of progressing within Voz. I like every other CRFO took a "chance" on my own fate. I could have rejected the offer and tried my luck with VB but at the time i thought Voz would suit me better.
After 2 years with Voz i was given the chance to go to VB as an FO as part of my carer progression. I had to pass an interview and sim check just like any other person off the street, with no special privileges.There were about 30 CRFO'S that went through the process and only about half were accepted. Times had changed for me and this now suited me(and the misses) better then Voz. I went onto the Ejet as did about 6 other CRFO'S and again we were bonded for 30 months. It was again a "chance" I accepted, as our seniority in the company(VB) had not been decided at that point. I have since found out that i am on the bottom of the list and did not keep my Voz start date as my seniority in VB, so my gamble here did not pay off. It is true that i have not paid for any endorsement and there are plenty of other threads about "paying for endorsement" and in this respect my gamble paid off and I am grateful for that. For the record i had the experience to apply to VB way back when they started, I didn't as i tried my luck elsewhere and thats another story.
A CRFO at Voz is on $60k approx so 2 years there gave me $120k, 2 endorsements $60k. Total for 2 years $180k.
FO at VB $80k approx(on Ejet) so 2 years $160k less $30k endorsement $130k.
So i guess i made $25k per year more then the person that joined VB when i joined Voz, not forgetting the VB pilot keeps the 2 years of seniority.
VB pilot may get command in 1 year or so then $150k approx so $380k in 3 years.
Me on FO wage for 3 years $270k (jumps up to $90k level 2)
So as my figures suggest....I am actually $60k worse off over 5 years even with my "free" endorsements then the person that joined VB when i joined Voz
These are the facts!
Now for my opinion........I have been an employee of the Virgin group for 2 1/2 years, its the same bloody group, be it VB or Voz we are all on the same team! Some of my gambles paid off some didn't, but i took a chance and i am now where i am. Stop complaining about where you are in life and how unfair it all is. Aviation is a Gamble at best and if someone takes a bigger gamble and it pays off then Good on them they have my blessings.
Very sorry for the thread drift but hopefully this will enlighten some and help keep the actual thread topics as the topic of future threads.
When i joined Voz as a CRFO i was given a co-pilot endorsement. I was told that i was bonded for 30 months. I was told that i may have to go to VB as a part of my carer progression but was also lead to believe there might be a chance of progressing within Voz. I like every other CRFO took a "chance" on my own fate. I could have rejected the offer and tried my luck with VB but at the time i thought Voz would suit me better.
After 2 years with Voz i was given the chance to go to VB as an FO as part of my carer progression. I had to pass an interview and sim check just like any other person off the street, with no special privileges.There were about 30 CRFO'S that went through the process and only about half were accepted. Times had changed for me and this now suited me(and the misses) better then Voz. I went onto the Ejet as did about 6 other CRFO'S and again we were bonded for 30 months. It was again a "chance" I accepted, as our seniority in the company(VB) had not been decided at that point. I have since found out that i am on the bottom of the list and did not keep my Voz start date as my seniority in VB, so my gamble here did not pay off. It is true that i have not paid for any endorsement and there are plenty of other threads about "paying for endorsement" and in this respect my gamble paid off and I am grateful for that. For the record i had the experience to apply to VB way back when they started, I didn't as i tried my luck elsewhere and thats another story.
A CRFO at Voz is on $60k approx so 2 years there gave me $120k, 2 endorsements $60k. Total for 2 years $180k.
FO at VB $80k approx(on Ejet) so 2 years $160k less $30k endorsement $130k.
So i guess i made $25k per year more then the person that joined VB when i joined Voz, not forgetting the VB pilot keeps the 2 years of seniority.
VB pilot may get command in 1 year or so then $150k approx so $380k in 3 years.
Me on FO wage for 3 years $270k (jumps up to $90k level 2)
So as my figures suggest....I am actually $60k worse off over 5 years even with my "free" endorsements then the person that joined VB when i joined Voz
These are the facts!
Now for my opinion........I have been an employee of the Virgin group for 2 1/2 years, its the same bloody group, be it VB or Voz we are all on the same team! Some of my gambles paid off some didn't, but i took a chance and i am now where i am. Stop complaining about where you are in life and how unfair it all is. Aviation is a Gamble at best and if someone takes a bigger gamble and it pays off then Good on them they have my blessings.
Very sorry for the thread drift but hopefully this will enlighten some and help keep the actual thread topics as the topic of future threads.
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onthillside
VA,VB,PB it should make no difference.
I had to go through the same wringer but the other way. VB to VA. Interview, psych test and stupid roll playing game and that was after 9 years at VB.
It's a two way street. the guys going across from VB had no easier time and many who applied and were interviewed did not get offered position.
I must say having flown with a lot of the Crz F/O's, most a great but others... I can see why they were rejected by VB! Total duds. VA have the same right to reject the VB duds.
How do you think the EMB guys feel about VA Crz F/O's who have been in the company half the time they have, walking in a getting direct entry onto the 737 earning almost $30,000 more. There are many F/O's at vb who would like a crack at the 777. How would they feel having been here for years, watching those positions going to a Crz F/O who has been here 2 years?
There are issues on all sides.
VA,VB,PB it should make no difference.
I had to go through the same wringer but the other way. VB to VA. Interview, psych test and stupid roll playing game and that was after 9 years at VB.
It's a two way street. the guys going across from VB had no easier time and many who applied and were interviewed did not get offered position.
I must say having flown with a lot of the Crz F/O's, most a great but others... I can see why they were rejected by VB! Total duds. VA have the same right to reject the VB duds.
How do you think the EMB guys feel about VA Crz F/O's who have been in the company half the time they have, walking in a getting direct entry onto the 737 earning almost $30,000 more. There are many F/O's at vb who would like a crack at the 777. How would they feel having been here for years, watching those positions going to a Crz F/O who has been here 2 years?
There are issues on all sides.