Emirates to recruit 700 pilots in next 18 months
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Guys, contracts are legally binding documents and can't be changed unilaterally. Both parties have to argee to any change. A common law states that once the precedent is set the company can't retract any benefit given even if it's not mentioned in the employee T&Cs unless the company is under restructuring and downsizing.
However, any disagreement with newly implemented T&Cs has to be submitted in writting to the HR within 7 days of such unilateral action. A stamped copy should be retained and the legal action can be instigated at any time even after a few years.
The rejection of new terms and conditions can be done independently or in a group. Well, all of you need to grow some balls and do something about it right after the attack on your T&Cs occurs. Moaning on this forum is not going to help anyone. The new terms are practically accepted by lack of response after a reasonable period and become the current contract. So all of you accepted new T&Cs by keeping quiet and only venting your anger on forums like this. Common law is enforceable in any country. I had similar problems with one of my previous employers in the past and the issue was handled in the above stated manner. They backed down and didn't even try to sack me, otherwise my lawyers would have laughed all the way to the court.
Let me tell you that most of you were psychologically evaluated and carefully selected by EK as being the least trouble makers (yes people). EK does not recruit the best pilots but best EK pilots. No wander they can get away with murder.
Good luck and enjoy the shaft.
However, any disagreement with newly implemented T&Cs has to be submitted in writting to the HR within 7 days of such unilateral action. A stamped copy should be retained and the legal action can be instigated at any time even after a few years.
The rejection of new terms and conditions can be done independently or in a group. Well, all of you need to grow some balls and do something about it right after the attack on your T&Cs occurs. Moaning on this forum is not going to help anyone. The new terms are practically accepted by lack of response after a reasonable period and become the current contract. So all of you accepted new T&Cs by keeping quiet and only venting your anger on forums like this. Common law is enforceable in any country. I had similar problems with one of my previous employers in the past and the issue was handled in the above stated manner. They backed down and didn't even try to sack me, otherwise my lawyers would have laughed all the way to the court.
Let me tell you that most of you were psychologically evaluated and carefully selected by EK as being the least trouble makers (yes people). EK does not recruit the best pilots but best EK pilots. No wander they can get away with murder.
Good luck and enjoy the shaft.
Last edited by stealthone; 6th Jun 2010 at 10:39.
cough cough cough
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Guys and gals,
One word of advice if I may. Think long and hard prior to leaving Oz for the Middle East. It is not a nice place in any way. To put up with living here they have to make it attractive and you need to be compensated adequately either financially, through lifestyle and or career wise through quick upgrades. Currently not one of those boxes are ticked at EK. It is simply not worth coming here anymore. All these boxes were ticked several years ago with great rostering and accelerated command upgrades , decent profitshare,cheap cost of living etc. These things are all gone now. If you want to experience fatigue, try short haul roster patterns with ultra long haul east - west flying. The cost of living has literally doubled in the time I have been here. As an FO here with a young family and a mortgage back home you will find it very difficult to get ahead financially. This being the case I would much prefer to live some where nice like OZ and not get ahead financially there with a better quality of life. But by all means come and join so you can open up some job opportunities for us back in OZ.
One word of advice if I may. Think long and hard prior to leaving Oz for the Middle East. It is not a nice place in any way. To put up with living here they have to make it attractive and you need to be compensated adequately either financially, through lifestyle and or career wise through quick upgrades. Currently not one of those boxes are ticked at EK. It is simply not worth coming here anymore. All these boxes were ticked several years ago with great rostering and accelerated command upgrades , decent profitshare,cheap cost of living etc. These things are all gone now. If you want to experience fatigue, try short haul roster patterns with ultra long haul east - west flying. The cost of living has literally doubled in the time I have been here. As an FO here with a young family and a mortgage back home you will find it very difficult to get ahead financially. This being the case I would much prefer to live some where nice like OZ and not get ahead financially there with a better quality of life. But by all means come and join so you can open up some job opportunities for us back in OZ.
stealthone excellent post and you are exactly spot on, except that it only works in common law democracies which I don't believe Dubai is.....
So the deal is you go there and play the game, if you don't like it you leave. And you are correct in that if everyone resigned at the same time then Emirates would change their contract.
So the deal is you go there and play the game, if you don't like it you leave. And you are correct in that if everyone resigned at the same time then Emirates would change their contract.
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Common law is enforceable in any country
In Arab countries, the law is essentially whatever the Sheiks and mullahs say it is. Same goes for lots of Asian countries too (although you can substitute local politicians/apparatchiks for Sheiks and mullahs).
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Who cares about what sheiks and mullahs say, it's about whether pilots are prepared to rattle the cage and fight for basic rights. Asian countries are hardly democracies but refusal to accept unilateral changes worked for me and some of my mates. Just imagine the situation where 1000 pilots walk into the HR office to submit their letters stating refusal to accept the contract change. I guess the legal team taking care of EK's matters is just going to lay back and laugh. Yeah I'd like to see that.
Oh no they would just put everybody into jail. For what? Challenging the management, ha ha. Yeah, that's why we have our consullar offices world wide, so put them to use.
I guess EK management would love to be in the center of the world's press attention aka 'EK being sued by pilots for contract breach'. At the end of the process so much feared sheikhs and mullah are just going to deliver the verdict that pilot contract can be breached because 'the contract' is one way street and it's not worth the paper it's written on.
Hmm, good then everyone is entitled to breach contracts, just go there get the type rating waste as much of their money and 5 months later disappear to some other airline.
Grow some spine for goodness sake.
Oh no they would just put everybody into jail. For what? Challenging the management, ha ha. Yeah, that's why we have our consullar offices world wide, so put them to use.
I guess EK management would love to be in the center of the world's press attention aka 'EK being sued by pilots for contract breach'. At the end of the process so much feared sheikhs and mullah are just going to deliver the verdict that pilot contract can be breached because 'the contract' is one way street and it's not worth the paper it's written on.
Hmm, good then everyone is entitled to breach contracts, just go there get the type rating waste as much of their money and 5 months later disappear to some other airline.
Grow some spine for goodness sake.
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Stealthone
I love that you think you could sue EK. In what court? certainly no court in the Middle East. Yeah, sue them in California, I'm sure they will recognise the verdict...
Asian countries... ever heard of sweatshops? Enterprises that contravene basically every human right, yet are permitted (and condoned) by the governments of the countries where they exist. There goes your "basic human rights".
You seriously think any consular office is going to get involved in a labour dispute? You must be a complete imbecile.
You work in the Middle East, you play by their rules, not some European view of how the world should be.
Idiot.
I love that you think you could sue EK. In what court? certainly no court in the Middle East. Yeah, sue them in California, I'm sure they will recognise the verdict...
Asian countries... ever heard of sweatshops? Enterprises that contravene basically every human right, yet are permitted (and condoned) by the governments of the countries where they exist. There goes your "basic human rights".
You seriously think any consular office is going to get involved in a labour dispute? You must be a complete imbecile.
You work in the Middle East, you play by their rules, not some European view of how the world should be.
Idiot.
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Stealthone, before you post anything further on a subject you clearly know nothing about and make an even bigger fool of yourself: One of the biggest changes I felt after moving to the middle east was the loss of the Rule of Law, and the loss of that avenue of redress. It is palpable. People in oz often don't believe it, but it is. You either get used to it, or leave. You have to accept that if you have a minor car accident with a local, it WILL be your fault. If you are involved in an accident with injuries, you will go to jail until it's sorted out. If you have a contract/labour dispute with your employer, if it's the govt- lots of employers are the govt or arms of the govt (such as EK)- you wont even get it to court. A solicitor won't even attempt to sue the govt, as 99% of all legal work is generated by the govt, so a solicitor would effectively lock themselves out of that for ever (I tried to launch an action once, and that was the response from the solicitor). That's how it works. All the rest of this stuff about "fighting for basic rights" etc. just shows you have never worked there. So stop talking crap. The sheiks ARE the law.
Very, Very true.
You work in the Middle East, you play by their rules, not some European view of how the world should be.
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Remember The Golden Rule
The man with the Gold makes the Rules.
BTW.... there is no such thing as class action.
From personal experience, if you manage to win a criminal case {after 2 years in court} you then have to file a civil case to try and recover your money and considerable legal costs. This can tie you up for another 2 or 3 years, with no guarantee you will get paid. Did I mention that all court hearings are in Arabic and documents are all in Arabic and you would be "amazed", not, what gets lost in translation.
You have no protection under the
law.
BTW.... there is no such thing as class action.
From personal experience, if you manage to win a criminal case {after 2 years in court} you then have to file a civil case to try and recover your money and considerable legal costs. This can tie you up for another 2 or 3 years, with no guarantee you will get paid. Did I mention that all court hearings are in Arabic and documents are all in Arabic and you would be "amazed", not, what gets lost in translation.
You have no protection under the
law.
Stealthone,
Shortly afetr I came to Dubai, some of the terribly treated, underpaid construction workers here "Showed some backbone" and staged a peacful protest over the fact they hadn't been paid for months.
The next day I flew forty of them back to Bangladesh as they were instantly deported.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Shortly afetr I came to Dubai, some of the terribly treated, underpaid construction workers here "Showed some backbone" and staged a peacful protest over the fact they hadn't been paid for months.
The next day I flew forty of them back to Bangladesh as they were instantly deported.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Na, never mind the middle east, look for the alternatives at home, join the AFAP, they will take care of you. No notice change of contracts? Yes plenty of recourse available. Just ask a vb guy.
What a liberal country that we live in or is that a myth perpetuated to the masses as opium(and gladly accepted too).
What a liberal country that we live in or is that a myth perpetuated to the masses as opium(and gladly accepted too).
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Vizofoz,
Those construction workers showed some backbone and proved that they have one unlike most of the slimy pilot community.
My previous employer had some chinese cabin crew and their contract was breached in a simillar manner as to what is happening in the middle east. One day the girls packed up the bags and went back to China. Overthere they took that airline to the court and won. That airline had no choice but to pay up big bucks as chinese authorities intended to confiscate their offices in China.
Yeah those girls 'showed some backbone' and they have my respect.
I wander what's gonna take for most of EK whingers to show some backbone provided they have one.
Those construction workers showed some backbone and proved that they have one unlike most of the slimy pilot community.
My previous employer had some chinese cabin crew and their contract was breached in a simillar manner as to what is happening in the middle east. One day the girls packed up the bags and went back to China. Overthere they took that airline to the court and won. That airline had no choice but to pay up big bucks as chinese authorities intended to confiscate their offices in China.
Yeah those girls 'showed some backbone' and they have my respect.
I wander what's gonna take for most of EK whingers to show some backbone provided they have one.
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Stealthone and the Missing Point
What has a Chinese class action, Slimy Pilots and EK Whingers to do with this Topic? Answer SFA.
People with several years experience in the SANDPIT are trying to warn others that they have no protection under the UAE laws. Anyone thinking of accepting employment in the UAE needs to think long and hard before they do so, particularly if they have a family.
People with several years experience in the SANDPIT are trying to warn others that they have no protection under the UAE laws. Anyone thinking of accepting employment in the UAE needs to think long and hard before they do so, particularly if they have a family.
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Stealthone,
Hmmm. I think that happened somewhere in history. Now when and where was it.......?
M
Just imagine the situation where 1000 pilots walk into the HR office to submit their letters stating refusal to accept the contract change.
M
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Stealthone,
I suggest the parallel does not exist because:
- your previous employer was not in China;
- the CC who resigned were Chinese;
- they went back to China and sued there (in their own language);
- the Chinese authorities then indicated an intention to confiscate the airline's offices in China
whereas:
- Emirates pilots are in the UAE;
- Emirates is owned by the Dubai government;
- to sue Emirates, you are effectively suing a Dubai government instrumentality;
- as has been argued, such an action may be very difficult to bring
A parallel might be where (for example) a group of Australian EK pilots went back to Australia and sought to sue Emirates in Australian courts, but unless their employment contracts were made under Australian law or the courts could be persuaded that there was a close and real connection to Australia in the contract, then I'd suggest that an Australian court would decide that it did not have any jurisdiction over the contract. I'd further suggest that pretty much any common-law would decide the same.
Were an application to be made, I'd suggest that An Australian or UK court would invite the applicant to sue in the courts of the state whose law governs the contract.
Chinese courts may see things differently and be willing to assume extraterritorial jurisdiction, or perhaps those CC contracts were made subject to Chinese law.
My previous employer had some chinese cabin crew and their contract was breached in a simillar manner as to what is happening in the middle east. One day the girls packed up the bags and went back to China. Overthere they took that airline to the court and won. That airline had no choice but to pay up big bucks as chinese authorities intended to confiscate their offices in China.
- your previous employer was not in China;
- the CC who resigned were Chinese;
- they went back to China and sued there (in their own language);
- the Chinese authorities then indicated an intention to confiscate the airline's offices in China
whereas:
- Emirates pilots are in the UAE;
- Emirates is owned by the Dubai government;
- to sue Emirates, you are effectively suing a Dubai government instrumentality;
- as has been argued, such an action may be very difficult to bring
A parallel might be where (for example) a group of Australian EK pilots went back to Australia and sought to sue Emirates in Australian courts, but unless their employment contracts were made under Australian law or the courts could be persuaded that there was a close and real connection to Australia in the contract, then I'd suggest that an Australian court would decide that it did not have any jurisdiction over the contract. I'd further suggest that pretty much any common-law would decide the same.
Were an application to be made, I'd suggest that An Australian or UK court would invite the applicant to sue in the courts of the state whose law governs the contract.
Chinese courts may see things differently and be willing to assume extraterritorial jurisdiction, or perhaps those CC contracts were made subject to Chinese law.
Last edited by Taildragger67; 8th Jun 2010 at 04:49. Reason: Forgot the 'quote' box
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Rule of Law
The "Rule of Law" is generally that:
(i) The law is made by a competent authority;
(ii) The law is applied to everyone equally and without exception (i.e. no one is above the law).
The rule of law is not some idea of broader justice or fairness about individual relationships.
More specifically:
1. If you signed a contract of employment (i) in the UAE, (ii) work there and (iii) live there, then you are *** domiciled *** there. VERY difficult, if not impossible for a court to find jurisdiction with those facts. Even if they did, the case would get transferred back to the UAE. UAE law will MOST LIKELY prevail.
2. The rule of law has some relevance in sharia law, but it is more limited to the law applying to everyone equally.
3. The rule of law in UAE, and their law generally, does not have the same notions or features as a common law country, like Australia or in a code law like Europe.
4. As described above, the problem appears to be that the employment contract seems to have precious few terms (but has the bond) and has significant application of policy and discretion. Terms and conditions that arise from 'policies', practices (custom and practice) and other related documents might be 'implied' into a contract of employment. Implying terms into a contact is not so easy, even at common law (see the BP Refineries case). Getting terms implied into a UAE contract might be very difficult and uncertain.
Don't base your expectations of the law on fairness or justice. UAE have a different system.
Don't even threaten to take them on. Besides having trouble getting another job with anyone (you WILL be tagged as person prepared to litigate, and NO ONE wants to employ someone that is prepared to litigate in a dispute - thats what psychometric testing is there for), you might find that you have issues and problems with customs and immigration when you transit through UAE. Who wants to employ a pilot that is a risk of having transit, customs and immigration issues.
BUT, if you would like a lawyer to represent you, I'd be happy to make the arrangements. Just make sure you have lots of $$$ to spend on achieving your principle.
Submit to their system and give it a go or find somewhere else to work.
Pauly
(i) The law is made by a competent authority;
(ii) The law is applied to everyone equally and without exception (i.e. no one is above the law).
The rule of law is not some idea of broader justice or fairness about individual relationships.
More specifically:
1. If you signed a contract of employment (i) in the UAE, (ii) work there and (iii) live there, then you are *** domiciled *** there. VERY difficult, if not impossible for a court to find jurisdiction with those facts. Even if they did, the case would get transferred back to the UAE. UAE law will MOST LIKELY prevail.
2. The rule of law has some relevance in sharia law, but it is more limited to the law applying to everyone equally.
3. The rule of law in UAE, and their law generally, does not have the same notions or features as a common law country, like Australia or in a code law like Europe.
4. As described above, the problem appears to be that the employment contract seems to have precious few terms (but has the bond) and has significant application of policy and discretion. Terms and conditions that arise from 'policies', practices (custom and practice) and other related documents might be 'implied' into a contract of employment. Implying terms into a contact is not so easy, even at common law (see the BP Refineries case). Getting terms implied into a UAE contract might be very difficult and uncertain.
Don't base your expectations of the law on fairness or justice. UAE have a different system.
Don't even threaten to take them on. Besides having trouble getting another job with anyone (you WILL be tagged as person prepared to litigate, and NO ONE wants to employ someone that is prepared to litigate in a dispute - thats what psychometric testing is there for), you might find that you have issues and problems with customs and immigration when you transit through UAE. Who wants to employ a pilot that is a risk of having transit, customs and immigration issues.
BUT, if you would like a lawyer to represent you, I'd be happy to make the arrangements. Just make sure you have lots of $$$ to spend on achieving your principle.
Submit to their system and give it a go or find somewhere else to work.
Pauly
Good one, mmmbop, but many of the pilots involved are still pilots. But not one of the companies involved exists today...
EK and their sandpit cohorts have lots of airframes on the way; they've got to crew them somehow, and my bet is they will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming into better conditions for their pilots and/or basings . I remember early days in Cathay Pacific: 'basings?...nah, never happen'.
Cathay have had based crew now for about a decade.
EK and their sandpit cohorts have lots of airframes on the way; they've got to crew them somehow, and my bet is they will eventually be dragged kicking and screaming into better conditions for their pilots and/or basings . I remember early days in Cathay Pacific: 'basings?...nah, never happen'.
Cathay have had based crew now for about a decade.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 8th Jun 2010 at 07:07.