V Australia challenged by AFAP for CR FO pay
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The White House
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ladies.....
Sitting backseat on a 777 on 14 hour sectors does not compare to domestic ops in a 'dinky 737 or ejet'.......
if you come across to VB with attitude like that, you'll be my radio operator on every sector....
got it?
and there is nothing in those books to say the fo has to be given 50/50 share of the flying...it's at capt discretion.
Oh yeah, I will only hand over control once........and that's when I'm having my breakfast...
lose the attitude, ladies...............................
Sitting backseat on a 777 on 14 hour sectors does not compare to domestic ops in a 'dinky 737 or ejet'.......
if you come across to VB with attitude like that, you'll be my radio operator on every sector....
got it?
and there is nothing in those books to say the fo has to be given 50/50 share of the flying...it's at capt discretion.
Oh yeah, I will only hand over control once........and that's when I'm having my breakfast...
lose the attitude, ladies...............................
Anthill, I've read the Deed and I have read the VA employment contract. There is a Legal responsibility for the company to honour the Deed. Morals have little to do with anything airline management factor into their decision making. After all the years in the game you should know that, and with respect to the other SFO's at VA, they should have realised that as well.
From what I understand the ranks of the VA SFO's are mostly filled with highly experienced and capable international Wide-body pilots. How do those pilots who have been "jumped" by the likes of UAL Furlough (no offence meant) feel about that? I mean, have the company explained to the more "senior" SFO's in VA the reasons for them being bypassed, due to the superior merit of the ones that have been promoted.
You see, it's all well and good to wax on lyrical about the virtues of merit. But who decides? Is the process transparent? If the abilities of the VA SFO's are to be believed, and personally I do believe, then why should there be a problem in giving the opportunity to qualify to the "first cab off the rank" after the 4/7ths of current VB pilots have been offered their go?
If UAL Furlough was in fact the most "senior" of the VA SFO's, then I stand corrected. If not my question remains?
From what I understand the ranks of the VA SFO's are mostly filled with highly experienced and capable international Wide-body pilots. How do those pilots who have been "jumped" by the likes of UAL Furlough (no offence meant) feel about that? I mean, have the company explained to the more "senior" SFO's in VA the reasons for them being bypassed, due to the superior merit of the ones that have been promoted.
You see, it's all well and good to wax on lyrical about the virtues of merit. But who decides? Is the process transparent? If the abilities of the VA SFO's are to be believed, and personally I do believe, then why should there be a problem in giving the opportunity to qualify to the "first cab off the rank" after the 4/7ths of current VB pilots have been offered their go?
If UAL Furlough was in fact the most "senior" of the VA SFO's, then I stand corrected. If not my question remains?
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stralya
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or don't we count?
I came across to VA for A/C 4 from the 737 VB fleet. Not because I was in the immediate firing line for redundancies, but because I thought a fleet change was a good idea as the Command upgrades came to a screeching halt in VB as a result of the GFC. Just another feather in your cap cap, if it all should turn to poo.......
The 4/7th rule for the first 7 aircraft was most certainly well known within the VB group and it WAS in the public domain as well, being an appendix to the VB EBA.
It is regrettable that some SFO's was not aware of this, and if their decision would have been made differently if they HAD been aware of it - I can understand the frustration they feel. I find it very hard to believe though, that the VA flight ops management would even entertain the idea of trying to cover it up during the recruitment process, but ultimately everyone has to take responsibility in exercising due diligence, while looking out for #1.
To the best of my knowledge - none of the VA SFO that came across from VB feel, that they have any "rights" to be considered for a 777 Command ahead of the very experienced guys that joined the group during VA's startup. I am obviously only speaking for myself here but have not heard any SFO's express a different sentiment during my time with VA.
VIPA (and as far as I understand the AFAP as well) are working at having the VA starting date recognised for upgrades. It is a very fine (and wiggly) line between upgrades made on merit and nepotism/camaraderie, and the Status Quo is untenable from the line pilots perspective. We will only change it through collective efforts though, and I want to say to those VA pilots that have not yet joined a union of their choice to get off your arse and get behind the push to better the deal for all of us. If you are still standing on the side line to see which union "wins" - you are wasting your time! Neither VIPA or AFAP are going away in a hurry and remember that there will only be ONE EBA for the flight crew, to which both unions will be respondents. If you don't join either, you don't really deserve to reap the benefit of the improvements that WILL come our way as a result of negotiations, and make no mistake - the improvements will be less, if our negotiating strength is reduced by having a sizable number of flight crew remaining unaffiliated with either union. This company will NEVER give you what you (reckon you) deserve - only what you negotiate. STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: lalaland
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dubya, Think about it, no one sits in the back seat for 14hrs.
The attitude you've shown in your post really proves my point and highlights your lack of understanding of long haul ops.
Except for some recent hires do you really think we are all 500hrs hires? But I do agree on one point, there is no comparison between what you do and VA ops. There is no reason to go to VB or PB except make room for people like you.
Which probably explains why VIPA with its roots in VB is happy to F@#K over current VA crew.
The only reason there is a problem within VA is because of VB Captains desire to be promoted into VA beyond the scope of the deed and VB FOs coming across outside the deed.
The attitude you've shown in your post really proves my point and highlights your lack of understanding of long haul ops.
Except for some recent hires do you really think we are all 500hrs hires? But I do agree on one point, there is no comparison between what you do and VA ops. There is no reason to go to VB or PB except make room for people like you.
Which probably explains why VIPA with its roots in VB is happy to F@#K over current VA crew.
The only reason there is a problem within VA is because of VB Captains desire to be promoted into VA beyond the scope of the deed and VB FOs coming across outside the deed.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about the CFO coming to VB on the 737 who have had their 30 month 777 bond reduced to 24months (so they can join VB), plus they are getting a free 737 endorsement. While the current Ejet FO's who have done their time and paid for their endorsement have been told if they want to go to the 737 it will cost them another $50000.
It seems many at V have forgotten that without VB there wouldn't be a V
It seems many at V have forgotten that without VB there wouldn't be a V
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Krusty,
Vaustralia is filled with highly experienced First Officers, all of whom I have been honored to be associated with and all of whom deserve a chance at command on the B777.
As far as seniority goes, we have none at Vaustralia. Having said that, I was the oldest First Officer in the first class at V and my experience ranks right there with the other 3 in my class. I would be happy to fly with any of the other 3 as either their Captain, or their First Officer.
So in my case, I believe that experience, merit and seniority were satisified. Hope that clears it up a bit.
As a side note, we can compare to Jetstar, which has a strict seniority system, but management "manipulates" the command requirements to allow more junior "mates" to be promoted ahead of more senior "non" mates. At least Vaustralia is honest about this.
Vaustralia is filled with highly experienced First Officers, all of whom I have been honored to be associated with and all of whom deserve a chance at command on the B777.
As far as seniority goes, we have none at Vaustralia. Having said that, I was the oldest First Officer in the first class at V and my experience ranks right there with the other 3 in my class. I would be happy to fly with any of the other 3 as either their Captain, or their First Officer.
So in my case, I believe that experience, merit and seniority were satisified. Hope that clears it up a bit.
As a side note, we can compare to Jetstar, which has a strict seniority system, but management "manipulates" the command requirements to allow more junior "mates" to be promoted ahead of more senior "non" mates. At least Vaustralia is honest about this.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Casablanca
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UAL, dont take any notice of him..he's been trying to get into VB for years, all his mates have left REX for VB and JQ etc....anything negative about VA or VB he's right in there boots and all giving his expert opinion..to the contrary, any good thread about VA or VB he is conspicuous by his absence.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: BNE
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
been "jumped" by the likes of UAL Furlough
Subsequent promotions may involve 'jumping' by strict DOJ but since there is no seniority...
The 4/7th rule for the first 7 aircraft was most certainly well known within the VB group
What about the CFO coming to VB on the 737 who have had their 30 month 777 bond reduced to 24months (so they can join VB), plus they are getting a free 737 endorsement.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: DPS
Age: 50
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So with the recent announcement I guess this is all moot?
So, what career path for V-Oz SFO's now? One would guess they'll get in line for a command (on any fleet) when their time eventually comes up from the bottom of the VB DOJ list? Bet they are all stoked to have left their last jobs.
At least the CFO's had the opportunity to 'progress' to the 737.
Flaps
So, what career path for V-Oz SFO's now? One would guess they'll get in line for a command (on any fleet) when their time eventually comes up from the bottom of the VB DOJ list? Bet they are all stoked to have left their last jobs.
At least the CFO's had the opportunity to 'progress' to the 737.
Flaps
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Care to elaborate flaps?
Have an ejet slot but I ain't gunna pay for another endo to move within DJ again.
What was the latest announcement you speak of? Is there are link somewhere?
Have an ejet slot but I ain't gunna pay for another endo to move within DJ again.
What was the latest announcement you speak of? Is there are link somewhere?
Is this the news your talking about?
Virgin Blue to integrate long-haul airline
Australia's second-largest airline Virgin Blue plans to shake up its management structure as it seeks to double its share of the domestic business-class market and take on dominant player Qantas.
New chief executive John Borghetti said on Wednesday he planned to integrate Virgin Blue's long-haul offshoot V Australia into the main company under a new management structure.
He also unveiled plans to increase his senior executive team from six to eight under changes outlined in a memo to staff on Wednesday.
The changes by Borghetti, who was once in the running for the top job at Qantas, were part of a wider plan to increase competition with its rival in business travel and reposition Virgin Blue away from its roots as a budget airline.
Borghetti was also looking at cutting the carrier's premium economy class to put in full business-class seating as well as update the airline's cabins and uniforms, two airline sources said. He also wanted to double his airline's share of the business-class market to 20 percent, the sources added.
"The new CEO has a clear strategy of restructuring and repositioning Virgin Blue in the domestic context - however it will take at least six months to determine whether this approach is likely to be successful," Macquarie analyst Russell Shaw said in a recent note to clients.
Under the changes outlined in the memo, management of Virgin Blue and V Australia's operations would come under the same executive. Previously, both the airlines were managed separately.
The airline's commercial chief Liz Savage would also oversee network management under the changes, while V Australia would be integrated into the airline's operations division under Andrew David, the memo said.
"It will increase accountability, remove duplication and create greater integration across our domestic and international network," Borghetti said in the memo.
Qantas' former head of government and international relations Jane McKeon, who was poached this week, would be in charge of government relations under the changes.
A new executive position was also created to focus on products and guest services as the airline seeks to step up its image in the business-class market.
Borghetti, who spearheaded a revamp of Qantas' first and business-class lounges in his previous role is known to have a passion for fast cars and expensive suits.
As well as poaching McKeon, Qantas' head of domestic pricing and yield Will Owens had also left to work for Virgin Blue, three airline sources said.
Competition is fierce in Australia's small domestic aviation market which is dominated by Qantas and its low-cost offshoot Jetstar which together have a 65 percent market share.
Singapore-listed budget carrier Tiger Airways has also stirred up the local aviation market with the introduction of cut-price fares aimed at the country's leisure travel market.
However, some analysts warned Borghetti faced an uphill battle mustering sufficient resources to take on Qantas.
Figures out Wednesday showed Qantas passenger numbers rose 5.6 percent in May compared to a year ago. Passenger numbers were up 7.6 percent for the financial year so far.
Virgin Blue's passenger numbers rose 4.6 percent across its domestic and international operations in May and 1.5 percent for the financial year to date.
British billionaire Richard Branson's Virgin Group owns a 25 percent stake in Virgin Blue.
Wires
Australia's second-largest airline Virgin Blue plans to shake up its management structure as it seeks to double its share of the domestic business-class market and take on dominant player Qantas.
New chief executive John Borghetti said on Wednesday he planned to integrate Virgin Blue's long-haul offshoot V Australia into the main company under a new management structure.
He also unveiled plans to increase his senior executive team from six to eight under changes outlined in a memo to staff on Wednesday.
The changes by Borghetti, who was once in the running for the top job at Qantas, were part of a wider plan to increase competition with its rival in business travel and reposition Virgin Blue away from its roots as a budget airline.
Borghetti was also looking at cutting the carrier's premium economy class to put in full business-class seating as well as update the airline's cabins and uniforms, two airline sources said. He also wanted to double his airline's share of the business-class market to 20 percent, the sources added.
"The new CEO has a clear strategy of restructuring and repositioning Virgin Blue in the domestic context - however it will take at least six months to determine whether this approach is likely to be successful," Macquarie analyst Russell Shaw said in a recent note to clients.
Under the changes outlined in the memo, management of Virgin Blue and V Australia's operations would come under the same executive. Previously, both the airlines were managed separately.
The airline's commercial chief Liz Savage would also oversee network management under the changes, while V Australia would be integrated into the airline's operations division under Andrew David, the memo said.
"It will increase accountability, remove duplication and create greater integration across our domestic and international network," Borghetti said in the memo.
Qantas' former head of government and international relations Jane McKeon, who was poached this week, would be in charge of government relations under the changes.
A new executive position was also created to focus on products and guest services as the airline seeks to step up its image in the business-class market.
Borghetti, who spearheaded a revamp of Qantas' first and business-class lounges in his previous role is known to have a passion for fast cars and expensive suits.
As well as poaching McKeon, Qantas' head of domestic pricing and yield Will Owens had also left to work for Virgin Blue, three airline sources said.
Competition is fierce in Australia's small domestic aviation market which is dominated by Qantas and its low-cost offshoot Jetstar which together have a 65 percent market share.
Singapore-listed budget carrier Tiger Airways has also stirred up the local aviation market with the introduction of cut-price fares aimed at the country's leisure travel market.
However, some analysts warned Borghetti faced an uphill battle mustering sufficient resources to take on Qantas.
Figures out Wednesday showed Qantas passenger numbers rose 5.6 percent in May compared to a year ago. Passenger numbers were up 7.6 percent for the financial year so far.
Virgin Blue's passenger numbers rose 4.6 percent across its domestic and international operations in May and 1.5 percent for the financial year to date.
British billionaire Richard Branson's Virgin Group owns a 25 percent stake in Virgin Blue.
Wires
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My mail is that the 4/7 rule has pretty much run its course because the 6th and 7th aircraft probably won't ever arrive, and we already have the numbers to comply with the 4/7 rule for 5 aircraft. Therefore the majority of command slots in the future should come from SFO's.
That said, if there are no more aircraft coming, the only command slots will come from attrition. There is a reasonable amount of older guys who joined from Singair and CX who will be moving on in the next year or two, so there is definitely some room for movement for SFO's, but not a lot.
Once the 4/7 agreement has been met, I doubt that there will be another 73/ejet captain offered a slot ahead of SFO's. But I could be wrong.
That said, if there are no more aircraft coming, the only command slots will come from attrition. There is a reasonable amount of older guys who joined from Singair and CX who will be moving on in the next year or two, so there is definitely some room for movement for SFO's, but not a lot.
Once the 4/7 agreement has been met, I doubt that there will be another 73/ejet captain offered a slot ahead of SFO's. But I could be wrong.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'veBeenEverywhereMan
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
5 Posts
6100 wrote: My mail is that the 4/7 rule has pretty much run its course because the 6th and 7th aircraft probably won't ever arrive, and we already have the numbers to comply with the 4/7 rule for 5 aircraft. Therefore the majority of command slots in the future should come from SFO's.
That said, if there are no more aircraft coming, the only command slots will come from attrition. There is a reasonable amount of older guys who joined from Singair and CX who will be moving on in the next year or two, so there is definitely some room for movement for SFO's, but not a lot.
Once the 4/7 agreement has been met, I doubt that there will be another 73/ejet captain offered a slot ahead of SFO's. But I could be wrong.
That said, if there are no more aircraft coming, the only command slots will come from attrition. There is a reasonable amount of older guys who joined from Singair and CX who will be moving on in the next year or two, so there is definitely some room for movement for SFO's, but not a lot.
Once the 4/7 agreement has been met, I doubt that there will be another 73/ejet captain offered a slot ahead of SFO's. But I could be wrong.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can say with some degree of confidence that whilst i can't guarantee what i have said is correct, but i can guarantee that what you have said is not entirely correct either.
VA has never had a CEO, only an executive general manager.
Said EGM is still there, but probably not for long.
777's will not go any time soon. As previously been rumoured, 767's or 330's still being evaluated. Any new wide body likely to be operated by existing experienced widebody crews in the event of redundancy on the 777.
Regardless of any integration 777 pilots will be protected in their current positions, as long as 777's continue to be operated. Any combined seniority, if it ever eventuates, will be an ugly process and who knows how it will resolve itself.
Most likely and least painful outcome would be to have widebody and narrowbody seniority. That way no one is disadvantaged. But that assumes there will continue to be a widebody fleet of some description, which is by no means certain.
VA has never had a CEO, only an executive general manager.
Said EGM is still there, but probably not for long.
777's will not go any time soon. As previously been rumoured, 767's or 330's still being evaluated. Any new wide body likely to be operated by existing experienced widebody crews in the event of redundancy on the 777.
Regardless of any integration 777 pilots will be protected in their current positions, as long as 777's continue to be operated. Any combined seniority, if it ever eventuates, will be an ugly process and who knows how it will resolve itself.
Most likely and least painful outcome would be to have widebody and narrowbody seniority. That way no one is disadvantaged. But that assumes there will continue to be a widebody fleet of some description, which is by no means certain.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Mydadsbag
Posts: 1,113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're clutching at straws when you believe management are going to differentiate between "widebody" and "narrowbody" when it comes to greedy pilots.
V is a disaster and will be managed accordingly.
bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
V is a disaster and will be managed accordingly.
bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm confused
What does widebody or narrowbody have to do with greedy.
In any case, I'm sure they would be more than happy to differentiate if they can keep the current widebody group on the current widebody conditions.
What does widebody or narrowbody have to do with greedy.
In any case, I'm sure they would be more than happy to differentiate if they can keep the current widebody group on the current widebody conditions.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: BNE
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
keep the current widebody group on the current widebody conditions
Welcome to 'B' scale ladies and gentlemen.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You might be correct but it will be an awfully difficult case to argue in court that two sets of pilots in the same company and doing roughly the same job should be paid two different wages. There may be some difference in the end but it is a principle of the FWA that there is 'fairness' in wages in the same company.
Just out of interest HR arab fellow, why does the prospect of a 'B' scale give you joy?
Just out of interest HR arab fellow, why does the prospect of a 'B' scale give you joy?