V Australia challenged by AFAP for CR FO pay
I'm with AoA on this one.... They knew what they were in for and were all quick to jump in to fly a big shiny silver jet, or more specifically, watch someone else fly said jet.
IF they aren't happy with their lot, perhaps they should look in the mirror...
j3
edited to add: I know of quite a few very very happy CRZFO's, well I'm assuming by the photo's on facebook with them surrounded by stunners
...you know who you are...
IF they aren't happy with their lot, perhaps they should look in the mirror...
j3
edited to add: I know of quite a few very very happy CRZFO's, well I'm assuming by the photo's on facebook with them surrounded by stunners
...you know who you are...
I know that they signed up for the cfo positions and they knew the terms and conditions, but really lets face the fact that they dont really have much of an option anywhere else (btw I am not a cfo).
T's & C's have been erroded throughout the country. If people dont join with Voz, then it would have been Tiger, J* or VB. The only place that pays well is QF and they aren't recruiting and the upgrade times there are way too long. I personally dont want to be 45-50 yrs old when I make captain and only then start to earn big bucks. On second thoughts, VB isnt that bad (I think they pay about 10% less then QF on the 73, although I could be wrong).
Now we have the J* cadetship and there are going to be people lining up to get a chance to pay through their noses to get a chance to fly for an airline and earn around 45K per annum after they take out the salary sacrifice for their training (this is as a junior FO).
What we need is for the Ts & Cs to keep dropping. This will hopefully discourage people from learning to fly, pilot numbers will end up being low and carriers will need to increase their Ts & Cs to retain crew. But I think all of us reading this know that this day will never come.
This industry breaks my heart.
T's & C's have been erroded throughout the country. If people dont join with Voz, then it would have been Tiger, J* or VB. The only place that pays well is QF and they aren't recruiting and the upgrade times there are way too long. I personally dont want to be 45-50 yrs old when I make captain and only then start to earn big bucks. On second thoughts, VB isnt that bad (I think they pay about 10% less then QF on the 73, although I could be wrong).
Now we have the J* cadetship and there are going to be people lining up to get a chance to pay through their noses to get a chance to fly for an airline and earn around 45K per annum after they take out the salary sacrifice for their training (this is as a junior FO).
What we need is for the Ts & Cs to keep dropping. This will hopefully discourage people from learning to fly, pilot numbers will end up being low and carriers will need to increase their Ts & Cs to retain crew. But I think all of us reading this know that this day will never come.
This industry breaks my heart.
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I don't know how many people who post here actually work for Vaustralia, but I would guess it isn't a lot. I do and I can set some facts straight.
Yes, we all signed an individual contract that was crap. I knew that going in but I simply didn't like the job I was in (Jetstar) and the conditions were very similar. The job at Vaustralia, however, was much much better.
It is not true that you cannot upgrade at Vaustralia. We currently have two F/O's upgrading to Captain and two Cruise F/O's upgrading to First officer. There are some requirements on it, you must have certain levels of experience, but it is pretty much that way in all airlines.
A large number of Cruise F/O's have recently been promoted to F/O at V.B. There is an opportunity to move across company lines for promotion.
Some Cruise F/O's have been turned down on their initial interview to move to F/O at V.B. You never know why this happens, but there isn't always a fit.
It is true that some promises were probably made to the initial hire of Cruise F/O's to get them to sign up and then those promises were not upheld. This has caused a considerable decrease in morale amongst those cruisers and you can't blame them for that. Unfortunately, they are probably going to have to vote with their feet in order to make it better.
Start up airlines by nature must start with lower pay, but quite often the pay gaps are quickly closed. If it doesn't the pilots will take their experience and move on (see Emirates recent A-380 order and expansion notice).
VIPA will have a big impact on Vaustralia along with cooperation from AIPA. No matter what AFAP says on these forums, they have no interest in unifiying the pilot group, unless that unification means under their umbrella. They refuse to work with AIPA, I have seen it with my own eyes. They are becoming irrelevant. They lost the Jetstar pilots and they will lose the Virgin pilots, mark my word on that.
Lastly, life is fantastic at Vaustralia. Great people, great airplane, good flying, plenty of time off....pay and benefits need work. So don't write us off as dead yet!
Yes, we all signed an individual contract that was crap. I knew that going in but I simply didn't like the job I was in (Jetstar) and the conditions were very similar. The job at Vaustralia, however, was much much better.
It is not true that you cannot upgrade at Vaustralia. We currently have two F/O's upgrading to Captain and two Cruise F/O's upgrading to First officer. There are some requirements on it, you must have certain levels of experience, but it is pretty much that way in all airlines.
A large number of Cruise F/O's have recently been promoted to F/O at V.B. There is an opportunity to move across company lines for promotion.
Some Cruise F/O's have been turned down on their initial interview to move to F/O at V.B. You never know why this happens, but there isn't always a fit.
It is true that some promises were probably made to the initial hire of Cruise F/O's to get them to sign up and then those promises were not upheld. This has caused a considerable decrease in morale amongst those cruisers and you can't blame them for that. Unfortunately, they are probably going to have to vote with their feet in order to make it better.
Start up airlines by nature must start with lower pay, but quite often the pay gaps are quickly closed. If it doesn't the pilots will take their experience and move on (see Emirates recent A-380 order and expansion notice).
VIPA will have a big impact on Vaustralia along with cooperation from AIPA. No matter what AFAP says on these forums, they have no interest in unifiying the pilot group, unless that unification means under their umbrella. They refuse to work with AIPA, I have seen it with my own eyes. They are becoming irrelevant. They lost the Jetstar pilots and they will lose the Virgin pilots, mark my word on that.
Lastly, life is fantastic at Vaustralia. Great people, great airplane, good flying, plenty of time off....pay and benefits need work. So don't write us off as dead yet!
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A bit ironic dont you think UAL Furlough for AIPA (Qantas Group) through VIPA (V_AIPA!) to be seen to represent best interests of VAustralia pilots!!!!!!!!!!!!! (competing and opposing companies)...... Doesnt seem logical to me!
Start up airlines by nature must start with lower pay, but quite often the pay gaps are quickly closed. If it doesn't the pilots will take their experience and move on (see Emirates recent A-380 order and expansion notice).
Why do you place so much hope in AIPA, Jetstar have improved their conditions by remaining independent of AIPA, placing so much faith in one organisation will only lead to disappointment.
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Well, the companies may be competing, but the pilots aren't!
As a member of ALPA and a United pilot, we always looked forward to Delta, or American, or any other company topping our contract....it simply meant we had a higher base to start from.
I believe that AIPA understands that their fortunes go with our fortunes and they will try as they can to help us improve our conditions. Not so sure AFAP has the same vested interest in us.
So yes, I believe that AUS ALPA and a combination of all pilots in Australia working together will lead to the best outcome. Not an easy task and one that AFAP will not be a part of.
I'm not sure where the information is coming from, but AIPA now represents the majority of Jetstar pilots. AIPA is firmly committed to consolidating the pilots in Australia. Tough task, but at least they are trying....can't say the same for AFAP.
As a member of ALPA and a United pilot, we always looked forward to Delta, or American, or any other company topping our contract....it simply meant we had a higher base to start from.
I believe that AIPA understands that their fortunes go with our fortunes and they will try as they can to help us improve our conditions. Not so sure AFAP has the same vested interest in us.
So yes, I believe that AUS ALPA and a combination of all pilots in Australia working together will lead to the best outcome. Not an easy task and one that AFAP will not be a part of.
I'm not sure where the information is coming from, but AIPA now represents the majority of Jetstar pilots. AIPA is firmly committed to consolidating the pilots in Australia. Tough task, but at least they are trying....can't say the same for AFAP.
AIPA understands that their fortunes go with our fortunes
You can't be serious!!An oxymoron here sport -
all pilots in Australia working together
one that AFAP will not be a part of
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Hey there UAL or Gidday Bill.
Pleased to see you enjoying yourself at V Aus.
Please stick to some facts rather than the spin about AFAP coming from those with an agenda to be in a body controlled by Qantas Pilots for the Qantas Pilots future.
AFAP has committed and stated here and in other places more relevant, the fact that we support a unified pilot body and no not under our umbrella as is being spun. The contrary is the fact and what causes us the distrust is the Qantas pilots have started out saying they only want an airline pilot association. When we knocked them back because it does nothing for regional, GA, Flight Instruction or Helicopters alternatives were put but it still comes back to the numbers and whether QANTAS PILOTS have the majority say or more importantly to them the control.
THAT with respect is the real problem.
Qantas pilots are funding and supporting VIPA it would appear and that is purely to protect themselves from competition. That is their job to ensure that Qantas remains competitive from start ups like V Aus and Jetstar International. Hardly shows the independence claims of VIPA for its reason of formation.
In Jetstar you have forgotten that we had individual contracts and an agreement that almost got over the line without any union involvement. We were attacked when we engaged and supported Jetstar pilots getting an improved deal. We never said it was perfect but the majority of Jetstar pilots voted it up. It is easy to sit outside the fence and throw stones but at some point you need to face reality that some pilots will disagree with the rose tinted glasses view of the world being espoused.
Far from losing Jetstar pilots our basic numbers are much the same as they were a few years back, whilst many Jetstar pilots did join AIPA for a while quite a number of those have since worked out that they cannot deliver the promises made. Many court cases have been run by AIPA (around 26) but no wins as such. I also noted that no one seems to ask AIPA what exactly they offered Qantas management to secure all the 787 flying to detriment of the Jetstar pilot group or why AIPA continue to fight the Right of Return case to protect Q pilots getting commands ahead of Jetstar F/O’s. Again understandable as this is their bread and butter it is all about protecting the Qantas mainline pilots.
You are right on one point thou Bill in that we (the Federation) do not have a vested interest in the fortunes of V Aus other than representing our members. Which is the way our body is structured to work the councils determine their industrial policy through the pilot representatives not dictated by a larger group with a vested interest of survival.
In your case the Federation pilots at V Aus have advocated and publicly put their position to the group regularly on their agenda for improvement. The policy does not get set by me or any staff member it is the pilots employed in V Aus that set it, your peers.
Finally Aus ALPA will only work when it is one pilot= one vote not a weighted vote to one particular group. Remember that is how US-ALPA works amongst others.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Pleased to see you enjoying yourself at V Aus.
Please stick to some facts rather than the spin about AFAP coming from those with an agenda to be in a body controlled by Qantas Pilots for the Qantas Pilots future.
AFAP has committed and stated here and in other places more relevant, the fact that we support a unified pilot body and no not under our umbrella as is being spun. The contrary is the fact and what causes us the distrust is the Qantas pilots have started out saying they only want an airline pilot association. When we knocked them back because it does nothing for regional, GA, Flight Instruction or Helicopters alternatives were put but it still comes back to the numbers and whether QANTAS PILOTS have the majority say or more importantly to them the control.
THAT with respect is the real problem.
Qantas pilots are funding and supporting VIPA it would appear and that is purely to protect themselves from competition. That is their job to ensure that Qantas remains competitive from start ups like V Aus and Jetstar International. Hardly shows the independence claims of VIPA for its reason of formation.
In Jetstar you have forgotten that we had individual contracts and an agreement that almost got over the line without any union involvement. We were attacked when we engaged and supported Jetstar pilots getting an improved deal. We never said it was perfect but the majority of Jetstar pilots voted it up. It is easy to sit outside the fence and throw stones but at some point you need to face reality that some pilots will disagree with the rose tinted glasses view of the world being espoused.
Far from losing Jetstar pilots our basic numbers are much the same as they were a few years back, whilst many Jetstar pilots did join AIPA for a while quite a number of those have since worked out that they cannot deliver the promises made. Many court cases have been run by AIPA (around 26) but no wins as such. I also noted that no one seems to ask AIPA what exactly they offered Qantas management to secure all the 787 flying to detriment of the Jetstar pilot group or why AIPA continue to fight the Right of Return case to protect Q pilots getting commands ahead of Jetstar F/O’s. Again understandable as this is their bread and butter it is all about protecting the Qantas mainline pilots.
You are right on one point thou Bill in that we (the Federation) do not have a vested interest in the fortunes of V Aus other than representing our members. Which is the way our body is structured to work the councils determine their industrial policy through the pilot representatives not dictated by a larger group with a vested interest of survival.
In your case the Federation pilots at V Aus have advocated and publicly put their position to the group regularly on their agenda for improvement. The policy does not get set by me or any staff member it is the pilots employed in V Aus that set it, your peers.
Finally Aus ALPA will only work when it is one pilot= one vote not a weighted vote to one particular group. Remember that is how US-ALPA works amongst others.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
AFAP has committed and stated here and in other places more relevant, the fact that we support a unified pilot body
funding and supporting VIPA it would appear and that is purely to protect themselves from competition
[making offers to] Qantas management to secure all the 787 flying to detriment of the Jetstar pilot group,
it is all about protecting the Qantas mainline pilots
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Hey Mr. Cox,
You can spin it however you like, but we both know exactly what went down at Jetstar, and it wasn't a great showing by you and the AFAP.
I was in the room with you, I heard the vitriol concerning AIPA spew from your pie hole.
Oh, and don't call me Bill, we ain't friends!
You can spin it however you like, but we both know exactly what went down at Jetstar, and it wasn't a great showing by you and the AFAP.
I was in the room with you, I heard the vitriol concerning AIPA spew from your pie hole.
Oh, and don't call me Bill, we ain't friends!
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Qantas pilots are funding and supporting VIPA it would appear and that is purely to protect themselves from competition.
That statement is false, AIPA is not funding VIPA and I challenge you to substantiate it with facts.
Given that you, as a spokesperson the AFAP, have made a statement of fact, without actually knowing that it is a fact or not, clearly substantiates a lot of the concerns in the community about the integrity of your organisation.
It also begs the question, what else have you tried to pass off as fact, that is merely spin, or worse, total fabrication, to try and further the interest of the AFAP, rather than its members.
V
Last edited by Vorsicht; 12th Jun 2010 at 07:29.
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Just the same as them (AIPA) not "funding" the failed EPG a few years ago eh Vorsicht???
I say again, if you have evidence to the contrary, give us the facts and substantiate your position; or are you taking the same approach as the AFAP, which is never let facts get in the way of trying to protect your livelihood.
V
Cursed: I don't understand what it is you wanted the AFAP to do with Virgin Blue for the V Aus pilots? V Aus as far as I can make out is a brand new company and at the time the terms and contracts where written had no pilots and therefore no Union to represent them. If they did not want the job on that contract they did not have to join, there were a LOT of jobs going at that same time, they picked V Aus.
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DD
From Dictionary.com
and for further clarification, and my own edification
OK, now that I have bought myself up to the required standard of education, let's hear what you've got.
V
fund [fuhnd] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a supply of money or pecuniary resources, as for some purpose: a fund for his education; a retirement fund.
2.
supply; stock: a fund of knowledge; a fund of jewels.
3.
funds, money immediately available; pecuniary resources: to be momentarily without funds.
4.
an organization created to administer or manage a fund, as of money invested or contributed for some special purpose.
–verb (used with object)
5.
to provide a fund to pay the interest or principal of (a debt).
6.
to convert (general outstanding debts) into a more or less permanent debt, represented by interest-bearing bonds.
7.
to allocate or provide funds for (a program, project, etc.).
–noun
1.
a supply of money or pecuniary resources, as for some purpose: a fund for his education; a retirement fund.
2.
supply; stock: a fund of knowledge; a fund of jewels.
3.
funds, money immediately available; pecuniary resources: to be momentarily without funds.
4.
an organization created to administer or manage a fund, as of money invested or contributed for some special purpose.
–verb (used with object)
5.
to provide a fund to pay the interest or principal of (a debt).
6.
to convert (general outstanding debts) into a more or less permanent debt, represented by interest-bearing bonds.
7.
to allocate or provide funds for (a program, project, etc.).
pe·cu·ni·ar·y [pi-kyoo-nee-er-ee] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
of or pertaining to money: pecuniary difficulties.
2.
consisting of or given or exacted in money or monetary payments: pecuniary tributes.
3.
(of a crime, violation, etc.) involving a money penalty or fine.
–adjective
1.
of or pertaining to money: pecuniary difficulties.
2.
consisting of or given or exacted in money or monetary payments: pecuniary tributes.
3.
(of a crime, violation, etc.) involving a money penalty or fine.
OK, now that I have bought myself up to the required standard of education, let's hear what you've got.
V
Last edited by Vorsicht; 13th Jun 2010 at 08:24.
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rmcdonal
Mate I'm soooo sick of people like yourself making statements like
What you say is true, yet things are not always that simple for everyone!!! Especially in our very isolated industry!!!
WHAT THE F@RK IS WRONG with people currently employed fighting to improve their current working conditions, this is generally what people call progress.
If im wrong please help me to understand, because im clearly not smart enough to work it out for myself.
At least our colleagues in the states have a spine, unlike yourself.
Spirit Airlines pilots strike entering 2nd day - Forbes.com
I'm am not an employee of any of the virgin group airlines, I'm just damn sick of our segregated union structure..
It's time for some unity
"If they did not want the job on that contract they did not have to join"
WHAT THE F@RK IS WRONG with people currently employed fighting to improve their current working conditions, this is generally what people call progress.
If im wrong please help me to understand, because im clearly not smart enough to work it out for myself.
At least our colleagues in the states have a spine, unlike yourself.
Spirit Airlines pilots strike entering 2nd day - Forbes.com
I'm am not an employee of any of the virgin group airlines, I'm just damn sick of our segregated union structure..
It's time for some unity
campdoag: I was looking for a Job at the same time those SO positions came out. I know exactly how hard it was to get a job back then as I can count the number of applications I sent out and compare it to the number of replies I received. If these pilots decided that V Aus was the way to go then good on them, I got that call and said no after they told me how little the pay would be. Sure it would be great for EVERYONE if they got a pay rise, but this just seems like they are trying to say "because my title has FO in it I must be an FO", if we use that call then the "deputy -Prime Minister-" must be the "-Prime Minister-" because it's in his title. Cruise FO is just a fancy way of saying SO.
Sure unity would be great, but every time anyone talks about it all we hear is 89 rhetoric, how great Ansett was, and why AIPA is the best for every one. This is all great History that should not be forgotten, but we are 20 years in the future and need to move on.
AFAP is the name of a Pilot union, it is made up of pilot members, it doesn't have its own opinion (sure its staff may), it does what is is told by its members, its members pay fees that pay lawyers that offer advise to keep pilots out of trouble. It doesn't say 'you must sign this agreement or else' it sais "our professional advise is to sign as that is the best option we can come up with using our resources". Remember that negotiations are done using your elected pilots, AFAP provide legal support and advice.
As far as my spine goes, it keeps my head held high when people ask me what I am doing for pilots in my company
.
Sure unity would be great, but every time anyone talks about it all we hear is 89 rhetoric, how great Ansett was, and why AIPA is the best for every one. This is all great History that should not be forgotten, but we are 20 years in the future and need to move on.
AFAP is the name of a Pilot union, it is made up of pilot members, it doesn't have its own opinion (sure its staff may), it does what is is told by its members, its members pay fees that pay lawyers that offer advise to keep pilots out of trouble. It doesn't say 'you must sign this agreement or else' it sais "our professional advise is to sign as that is the best option we can come up with using our resources". Remember that negotiations are done using your elected pilots, AFAP provide legal support and advice.
As far as my spine goes, it keeps my head held high when people ask me what I am doing for pilots in my company
.
Thread Starter
Regardless,
It seems that AFAP can forsee that there may have been an obvious legal breach of the Fair Work Act regarding (back?)pay, and are actively pursuing it while the three V Australia VIPA Reps are not!!
It seems that AFAP can forsee that there may have been an obvious legal breach of the Fair Work Act regarding (back?)pay, and are actively pursuing it while the three V Australia VIPA Reps are not!!