It's good someone was awake.

[mikk_13]

Whatever occurred it certainly had nothing to do with industrial issues. Why the hell do people keep dragging industrial Us vs Them crap into safety threads anyway?

When you are tired, do you make more mistakes? When you have too much traffic in your sector because there is not enough staff, do you make more mistakes? When you have a manager beating you with a stick to work longer and harder, and never be sick, do you feel the pressure? When you have to work amongst the angst and hatred, do you distracted by the many conversions with your peers about you and your family's future?

It has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH INDUSTRIAL ISSUES.

I am not saying that in this particular case, it was totally because of industrial issues. But to come out and say it had nothing to do with industrial issues just shows your ignorance. We don't comment on safety related issues in your cockpit since we don't know enough about it, so you should think about this and consider not commenting on the relationship between industrial issues and atc safety since you have probably have no idea how things work in atc.

[Dick N. Cider]

Why does this have to be a pitched battle between ATC and pilots? When there's a prang there are mostly voices urging caution and "Wait until we have more facts" etc.

It looks like something has gone wrong - well duh. Just culture is not about patting someone on the head if they are culpable but ensuring that there is fair treatment. If there was an honest mistake then work to prevent repeat occurrences. If it was a deliberate attempt to put 2 together or criminal negligence then that has its own path. As I said before people make mistakes. That may be the case here. Equally it may be something else. Anyone who's had even a passing brush with Reason would know that it's rarely a single error that leads to an accident or incident.

For the bush lawyers to sit here arguing the merits of immediate procedural change is quite simply bullsh!t. Start a new procedural change thread. When the facts are known about this then cite it as appropriate evidence if that's the way it pans out.

As for industrial matters - issues in the workplace that affect operations are safety issues. Believe it or not a safety concern raised is not always about more money. Unions are active in OH&S because their charter is to represent their members.

Is any of this relevant to the actual incident? Bugg@red if I know - nor does anyone else out there unless one of the investigators is posting. I do know that there is a full investigation under way and I await the EVIDENCE.

[AlJassmi]

It's all well and good to say vote with your feet. Not so easy when there's only 1 employer in the country. It's a pretty big call (though it's one that a number of ATCs have made) to move overseas because you're peeved with the place. There is also a good chance that the spiteful people in charge will unofficially blacklist you so there is not an option of working again in your own country. When you've got 30yrs left to work I'd consider that a difficult choice.

[C-change]

Another quality thread where controllers turn on one another over an incident. Let the investigation run its course before you string this indiviual up from the balcony of the Ops room.

Maybe some of you can look forward to a better year in 2010.
All the best to ASA staff and pilots ect working tonight.

Have a Happy New Year. I will be.

[keepemseperated]

Heard a rumour that short break procedures were in place at the time - any truth to it??

[Delta Whiskey]

Non Standard Levels - I'm an ATC and I'm happy to allocate them in the knowledge that if any one aircraft uses one then it may as well be all in - any protection afforded by using standard levels is gone and that's now the case across the Tasman and South West Pacific. If the driver airframe is sensible then strategic offsets are the only way to go - in my unit we allow up to 2 miles without any requirement to notify ATC.

Because it's my job to SEPARATE aircraft one from another, if I allocate a NS level to someone I only do it after considering what may crop up any time in the next hour to 90 minutes down his track - questions like where are the SE Asian carriers' overnight eastbound flights likely to be and am I going to be putting someone into their faces. Usually a quick check with neighbouring ATSUs is all that's required to settle the matter and that gives them a heads up on what's coming too.

With the automated exchange of flight data across airspace boundaries 30 minutes before the eta at the boundary, each ATSU gets the information about incoming flights without the ATC having to remember to make a phone call which further lessens the risk of having a head on at the same level.

Fitness for work - If you're not fit stay home, get better and don't bloody come to work and infect me. Ditto to having a hangover or other impairment - I don't want my name featuring in the report on your incident!!

Workload - when it all gets too much HOLD the traffic, don't accept departures, impose start up restrictions, in other words, use your loaf and don't allow yourself to be pressured - while you may think your behaviour in allowing yourself to accept more and more traffic will be somehow appreciated by management and your peers, it's got definite potential to be a career shortening move and could do a hell of a lot more harm than that.

And that's the gospel according to Moi - wishing a happy New Year to all you aviation people in the aiar & on the ground - have a safe 2010.

[Tarq57]

C-change, I was attempting to come up with something expressing pretty much the same sentiment after a couple of wines too many, and you've expressed it far more eloquently.
Nice post.

[Plazbot]

Fitness for work - If you're not fit stay home, get better and don't bloody come to work and infect me. Ditto to having a hangover or other impairment - I don't want my name featuring in the report on your incident!!

Workload - when it all gets too much HOLD the traffic, don't accept departures, impose start up restrictions, in other words, use your loaf and don't allow yourself to be pressured

I don't know what country you are controlling in but I am pretty certain it is not OZ. While I personally agree with your above points and they are how I conduct myself and have done so (people sit up and pay attention very quickly when you hit a hot line and say "keep those ones clear of mine"), the culture of management intimidation to the new joiners puts a stop to this very quickly.

When individuals pay increases are directly influenced and decided by your immediate supervisor, there are a number who are just plain ''**** scared'' to rock the boat. When Airservices has a sick leave process in place that you receive a letter of caution as a 24 hour shift worker when taking an amount of days that is LESS than the average taken by the clerical staff, it is quite obvious that safety is not the concern but the dollar and protecting bonuses based on service continuity.

As for traffic metering, I suggest knowing the Airservices application of Operational Command Authority would make it clear that stopping departures is not an option for the enroute controller. Even during complete systems failures we have had departures allowed by individuals holding OCA.

Above someone mentioned that the controller 'just stuffed up'. Sure that may be the case at face value but to completely disregard that things like staffing and management supervisionary practices do not have a part to play in incidents such as these shows an extreme lack of understanding of risk identification aand management.

This will be my last comment on things AsA as I officially am off the books after today. Best of luck to you all. You are going to need it.

Plazbot, out.

[C441]

Airliners avoid collision over Northern Territory - The Autralian

....and apparently that is news!

[ferris]

Well said plazbot.

AsA is such a toxic workplace (look no further than this thread, for evidence). Many just don't realise it. Good luck with your endeavours, whatever they are.

[mikk_13]

I absolutely support what plazbot said. He is absolutely correct.

It is a load of sh*t. You pricks flying your jets around have no idea. Don't tell the readers how it is when you have no frigen idea what it is. If you have no idea, stop pretending you know or understand what happens in ASA. Piss off, and fly your own **** and stop telling us who f*ucked up.

most are leaving, so when you have a dumb **** manager controlling your plane don't come on this forum and winge about the quality of controlling.

We told you. I fully support the controller no matter what ever happens. I have met him and he/she is a fine character. Even if they ****** up, I support him. It is only a matter of time before we all do it at some time. We either do it or get lucky.

I have saved the situation with many pilots ****ups, many.......... Many of us have.
^y

Mikk, 72k a year? No I wouldn't. If you think you are worth the same as a 10-20 year controller you are kidding yoursleves. When I got my first endorsement it was 52k a year, we've all had to work our way through the increments, some of us got a better deal than others (mine wasn't that particularly good but better than some others).

#

news for you champ. no 10-20 year controller is watching or taking notice to your 1 year controller. It makes not difference to you. You are talking to one person, and that is it. They have the same responsibility as the 10-20 year controller. Don't kid yourself.

[mikk_13]

If it means that a 10-20 year controller just watches their own console and doesn't keep an eye out for the newbie, you are wrong, and it's not about dobbing, it's about keeping an eye out and helping out. Yes, the newbie has the same over-all responsibility but they don't (in most cases) perform to the same efficiency levels as the more experienced.

There is no way any controller can watch what is happening in the airspace around them when they are busy. The only traffic they will be watching is the stuff that is coming to them vs the stuff that is leaving them. It just doesn't happen. It is even quite possible you have 2 or 3 new controller sitting in a row.
And here comes the industrial bomb shell here, you think 10-20 year controllers are important, well most of them in the sector that is in question are in Germany or the middle east right now.

Its all very nice to say your 10-20 year controller can do it better. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. Do you really think this would not happen to an experienced controller.

Just culture to me doesn't mean finding touchy feely, politically correct excuses for occurences.

Thats all great, but you are going to miss the possibility of finding why he made the **** up. You don't know if pressure was put on him to work a night shift before an afternoon shift, you don't know if he was told he has to work 10 in a row, you don't know if there were not enough staff to split the sectors and he felt the pressure to keep going, you don't know if he tried to call in sick that morning and they talked him into coming iin so not to let down his mates. But I can tell you it is very very possible that all these things did happen and may have contributed to the problem. It will happen again and most people who I talk to say that it is just a matter of time before something gives. I can tell you every day pressure is applied to run it lean and thin at the cost of safety.

It seems most people are living in a dream because this is how it is. Maybe it wasn't always like this and they haven't caught up to the fact that it has changed. Now I'm an outsider looking in and I can tell you it is not good.

[C441]

Has Minister Albanese commented on the environment within this area of his portfolio?

[Hempy]

Owen, agree with most of what you have to say, except for this clanger..

Thats all great, but you are going to miss the possibility of finding why he made the **** up.

Suggest that if the controller is honest that he/she will be treated fairly, we have a great union to back he/she up as well.

We all know that 'incident response' is directly related to staff numbers in place at the time.

[mikk_13]

well, this is my last post on this.

I am overseas, and thanking god it wasn't me sitting in Brisbane who did the bad. I hope that he is treated fairly however I know it is unlikely.

Wakeup, because the world isn't how you see it. Its apparent you don't believe me so good luck to you.

[Cactusjack]

Please

Bring back Hoody !