Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing

[Chimbu chuckles]

That only applies if you have and can maintain visual reference to the ground. We're talking here about what do you do once having lost visual reference? That appears to be what happened here. The APNG flight could not land at Kokoda due to the weather (otherwise they would have landed), and they probably remained in the weather until the point of impact(otherwise they wouldn't have flown into the mountain)

You DO NOT know that. I can tell you what they were NOT doing and that is tooling along in IMC and then whacked into 'a mountain' sticking up in front of them.

I do have an idea what MIGHT have happened because it has happened to me - I HAVE seen EXACTLY what they saw in their last seconds but I got away with it. THAT is why I WILL NOT be drawn into any more of your inane posts and why I won't do anything other than help people to understand the challenges they faced.

[groper]

If you haven't operated in PNG it would be best to just listen and learn.

You don't need to be IMC to 'lose it' in that place, even though you're visual. It can be quite surprising to find one has no visual horizon due to terrain and need to refer to the AH/AI for pitch info rather than be fooled by illusions. It can all quickly turn to worms in a low performance aircraft.

The only time I felt safe there was departing Moresby to the south or at 30,000 ft in a Canberra taking survey photos.

[bia botal]

And that's what people want to know, what happened.

gulliBell, you had me right up to your second paragraph, but i afraid i have to go with CC, the only safe option when approaching strips like kokoda etc, is against the valley wall vmc, whilst your way at higher altitudes may be in your view the safer option, in poor condition i would conclude that you would never get in, for you are relying on become vmc at some stage closer to the field, thus taking yourself into a area that had you been vmc under cloud may have form the view that a approach was not possible a retreated much earlier. In my time very few people flew imc in the highlands, there would be the odd person that would do goroka-hagan on gps imc, that would just send a shiver up my back, for sure around the islands it happened every day ie hoskin-kandrian but strict adherance to over water cloud break was always carried out(well by me anyway)...... But of course there where always people who would push there luck, many survive, and as we all know many did not. has there ever been an accident in png that didn't involve weather??? whilst it would be totally unacceptable to say why this accident accured, i wager we,ve all cast our memories back to the loss of "fish" and MAS twotter and note the simalaritys.

[wotthe]

G'day Sharpie

Thanks for the representation during the ,79 pilots' strike, pity it didn't pan out the way everyone would've liked.

Left DA 3 weeks before DNL went in and I'm only going on an extremely reliable source but it was a while ago now.

Did do some research and did actually have a copy of the final report somewhere, will have to go deeper, for my own edification now as you've got me thinking.

[denabol]

Chimbu Chuckles,

Some time back I was on a scuba trip to Walindi on West New Britain just after an incident in which an F 28 shot off the Kimbe (?) runway into the drink. Was that the one you recall or was there another at Madang?

[Trojan1981]

Eagle,
I have not flown in PNG as a pilot. I have flown as a Crewman (ADF/Civil) and as a passenger on civil and military a/c.

To say the ADF has had only one fatal accident compared to many civil accidents in PNG is to ignore the fact that there are far more civil aircraft, conducting far more difficult operations than the ADF would attempt, to remote locations in PNG every day, year round. They are professionals.
I think DE has a good point.
With luck, fair weather and common sense, the ADF crews will stay safe.

[wessex19]

and soon there will be no caribou to support ADF ops in PNG when tragedies like this occur!!
condolences to all involved

[firegrass]

For guliBell

TAWS shows all red when trying to get up the river into Tabubil in a DHC8.
Scared the crap out of me! I already "now" that there are f#$%ing HUGE mountains all around me!
Better to keep your eyes outside and "see & avoid".
TAWS is great for situational awareness, but it does have limitations when used
in a mixed VFR/IFR environment. Which is what flying in PNG is.

PS When you inevitably have to go IMC below LSALT a nice tight climbing turn will have to do. Just hope there's nothing in your way! It worked for some of us.....
Unfortunately it didn't work for others....

[tinpis]

Off topic I know, but in days gone by, it was not unusual to turn up WWII wrecks while on searches in that area.

[HANOI]

Denabol....

The F28 at Hoskins did not go into the drink , It went thru the fence at the other end due to a brake problem ( "Splash" was flying it ).
Later on the same day a Talair Bandit descended into the water whilst also making an approach to Hoskins.

[denabol]

Thanks Hanoi.

Couldn't even remember the name of the strip right, but do remember having the best scuba diving of a lifetime . I flew around some other parts of PNG too in light aircraft up to the size of a Bandierante, which didn't strike me as all that light but solid as a brick dunny. I reckon it is one of the most exciting places on earth, to fly or travel, and I hope this accident doesn't discourage our youngsters from exploring it. Safer being in the air I think than being in Port Moresby after dark.

[High 6]

Hanoi, you are correct with the PX incident in Hoskins, the F28 sufferred damage to the nosewheel area from the low perimeter fencing on the overrun on RW 12 and was flown out a week or so later after repairs. The Talair bandit went into the sea between Bialla and Hoskins and I believe nothing has never been found to this day. This was a particular bad day because I think one of the Defence Force aircraft involved in the bandit search also had an incident with a heavy landing at Hoskins.

From memory, Pixie has only ever had the hull loss in Madang, and to date have never had a fatality in 34 years of operations, although as in every company there have been some close ones. The F28 operation was by the far some of the best flying in the world... ever!!

Regarding RAAF aircraft written off on PNG training missions, there have been a few helicopter crashes over the years involved mainly in high altitude training, and Caribous have been left behind in Tufi, Eliptamin and the Kudgeru gap. I don't doubt that the training is high, but the lack of continuous experience in country was a significant factor in most of the incidents. I think DE has raised a valid point of concern.

[KRviator]

Originally Posted by Trojan1981

To say the ADF has had only one fatal accident compared to many civil accidents in PNG is to ignore the fact that there are far more civil aircraft, conducting far more difficult operations than the ADF would attempt

True, but arguably that's only because 173 were incredibly lucky when they lost their Twin Otter up there.

[tinpis]

Caribou left at Porgera as well.

[skol]

From the Herald:

'The airline hired former Air NZ/Ansett CEO Gary Toomey in June to drive its expansion plans.'

I wouldn't hire Toomey to drive my car.

One unlucky airline, I thought 'Absolutely' Toomey had been put out to pasture.

[Pinky the pilot]

go IMC below LSALT a nice tight climbing turn will have to do. Just hope there's nothing in your way! It worked for some of us.....

I only ever had to do that once. In a thankfully empty BN2, maintaining the turn whilst climbing from just over 5,000 to just over 11,000.'

Got back to Moresby, climbed into my car and then, for about ten seconds had a severe dose of the shakes!

I have never been so scared, before or since!

[telephonenumber]

There's media talk of a 14th person on board.

[groper]

Most of the Caribou prangs were due to mistakes that one would more than likely have been able to recover from in Australia e.g pressing too far up a closed valley, pressing approaches that should have been abandoned much earlier, lack of appreciation of a poor (low) approach, mis-identifying airfield. They serve to reinforce the unforgiving nature of flying in PNG....and Irian Jaya.

There was also a write off at Tapini and another damaged at Efogi - but that one may have been airframe age deterioration.

I think the only fatal Caribou accident was the Kudgeru but, that was a particularly bad one with an aircraft full of PNG Army cadets. I think 3 or 4 kids miraculously walked out of it.

[chainsaw]

A4-202 crashed at Porgera on 11th June 1965

A4-147 crashed while landing at Tapini on 6th October 1968

A4-233 crashed in the Kudgeru Gap on 28th August 1972

A4-164 crashed on takeoff at Eliptamin on 18th October 1978

A4-285 damaged while landing at Efogi on the 5th September 2008 (recovered and scrapped)

Details courtesy of Darren Crick, ADF Serials - RAAF A4 De Havilland DHC-4 Caribou

[Amelia_Flashtart]

telephonenumber - the talk of the 14th person has already been proven incorrect it seems.