Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing
Great video Tinpis
I saw some very similar flying in Timor on an MI-8 and regularly saw Lloyds 212s taking off into similar conditions for Medivac ops.
Brilliant pilots, great skill set but obviously honed through fair wx experience in that terrain. Idon't believe the particular MI-8 on which I flew posessed a GPS at the time.
I saw some very similar flying in Timor on an MI-8 and regularly saw Lloyds 212s taking off into similar conditions for Medivac ops.
Brilliant pilots, great skill set but obviously honed through fair wx experience in that terrain. Idon't believe the particular MI-8 on which I flew posessed a GPS at the time.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Strapped, How much PNG time you got?
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TB
Silly Old Git
trojan, as the chimbus and others that post on here will testify, we operated in a damn sight worse than what those vids show, we just never got to film it!
What may be lost on strapped and others is that the contractors EXPECT the planes to arrive, thats how mines, tourism, etc stay open. If that poor girl had of sat drinking tea waiting for a 'perfect VFR day' to learn the ropes,the wheels of industry would grind to a halt , and nobody would be able to humbug the proceeds
Unless its all changed.
What may be lost on strapped and others is that the contractors EXPECT the planes to arrive, thats how mines, tourism, etc stay open. If that poor girl had of sat drinking tea waiting for a 'perfect VFR day' to learn the ropes,the wheels of industry would grind to a halt , and nobody would be able to humbug the proceeds
Unless its all changed.
I understand. I have not seen it worse than that and don't think I want to
. I have nothing but respect for the pilots who fly regularly, and necessarily, in these conditions.
. I have nothing but respect for the pilots who fly regularly, and necessarily, in these conditions.
Grandpa Aerotart
Yeah above 3000' (and lets face it in the highlands the bottoms of the valleys are more like 4500+) and below LSALT its not in cloud or on a safe heading.
Below 3000' (usually 2500+' below) in the Gulf/Western Province/coastal/inter island it is 'can see good straight down'.
Below 3000' (usually 2500+' below) in the Gulf/Western Province/coastal/inter island it is 'can see good straight down'.
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Strapped 2 a Prop:
Tosser:
Mach Twelve: Well said.
You know C & Tng, is a difficult thing, as a C &Tng Capt you do your Dam best to cover all bases and ask all sorts of Questions, there comes a point after a series of repetitious trips and the companies training schedule complied with, and more importantly you as a C &T are happy, and you realize that your sitting in the RH seat as C&t, you have nothing more to contribute to a candidate.
I always use the "am I happy to put my trouble &strife and ankle biters behind this candidate" as a yard stick!.
All this said, there is always going to be the odd time when a candidate/pax/A/c may perish.
On this day, this dear lady was unlucky! as was her Co pilot and Pax.
H/Snort.
Mach Twelve: Well said.
You know C & Tng, is a difficult thing, as a C &Tng Capt you do your Dam best to cover all bases and ask all sorts of Questions, there comes a point after a series of repetitious trips and the companies training schedule complied with, and more importantly you as a C &T are happy, and you realize that your sitting in the RH seat as C&t, you have nothing more to contribute to a candidate.
I always use the "am I happy to put my trouble &strife and ankle biters behind this candidate" as a yard stick!.
All this said, there is always going to be the odd time when a candidate/pax/A/c may perish.
On this day, this dear lady was unlucky! as was her Co pilot and Pax.
H/Snort.
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Jet A:
Love the fumes, almost as good as Castrol R & 130 Octane:
Jet mate, I think your opinion is flawed mate, it is a difficult place to operate and has been proven as such over the years,
Now! Q: I think any risk assessment that accepts a fatal accident as a consequence of operating a service is fundamentally flawed. No human life is worth a commercial air service. None, zero, zip, nada full stop.
So do I, I agree, but who's to say it is acceptable?
And! Q: Yes air services are essential to PNG and yes air services are dangerous in PNG. However Airlines PNG are not a charity, and they are not part of the government. They are accepting the consequences of operating, being four fatal Twotter accidents and 40+ fatalities in 15 years in return for $$.
So you acknowledge the dificulties and that it is dangerous.
So do I.
And! Q; They are accepting the consequences of operating, being four fatal Twotter accidents and 40+ fatalities in 15 years in return for $$.
I happen to think they are doing rather well, considering they are "perhaps" the primary mover of meat around the interior, when in recent years past TAlair had 7 accidents in twelve years,Talair 01 Apr 1981 Mt. Hagen, Papua, New Guinea Cessna 402 Talair 14 Jan 1983 Near Karimui, Papua New Guinea Britten Norman BN-2A-20 Trislander Talair 06 Sep 1984 Mt. Musaka, Papua, New Guinea Britten-Norman BN-2A-20 Islander Talair 06 Feb 1987 Off Papua, New Guinea Embraer 110P2 Bandeirante Talair 08 Dec 1987 Kanabea, Papua New Guinea Britten-Norman BN-2A-2 Islander Talair 21 Jul 1989 Porgera, New Guinea de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter 300 Talair 15 Apr 1992 Near Goroka, Papua New Guinea Embraer 110P1 Bandeirante.
To say accepting human lives against profit is acceptable is abhorrent to me, and I guess to a good many other folk in the business.
One could hazard a guess that perhaps it is safer today than was of yester year!
But just my opinion:
H/Snort.
Jet mate, I think your opinion is flawed mate, it is a difficult place to operate and has been proven as such over the years,
Now! Q: I think any risk assessment that accepts a fatal accident as a consequence of operating a service is fundamentally flawed. No human life is worth a commercial air service. None, zero, zip, nada full stop.
So do I, I agree, but who's to say it is acceptable?
And! Q: Yes air services are essential to PNG and yes air services are dangerous in PNG. However Airlines PNG are not a charity, and they are not part of the government. They are accepting the consequences of operating, being four fatal Twotter accidents and 40+ fatalities in 15 years in return for $$.
So you acknowledge the dificulties and that it is dangerous.
So do I.
And! Q; They are accepting the consequences of operating, being four fatal Twotter accidents and 40+ fatalities in 15 years in return for $$.
I happen to think they are doing rather well, considering they are "perhaps" the primary mover of meat around the interior, when in recent years past TAlair had 7 accidents in twelve years,Talair 01 Apr 1981 Mt. Hagen, Papua, New Guinea Cessna 402 Talair 14 Jan 1983 Near Karimui, Papua New Guinea Britten Norman BN-2A-20 Trislander Talair 06 Sep 1984 Mt. Musaka, Papua, New Guinea Britten-Norman BN-2A-20 Islander Talair 06 Feb 1987 Off Papua, New Guinea Embraer 110P2 Bandeirante Talair 08 Dec 1987 Kanabea, Papua New Guinea Britten-Norman BN-2A-2 Islander Talair 21 Jul 1989 Porgera, New Guinea de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter 300 Talair 15 Apr 1992 Near Goroka, Papua New Guinea Embraer 110P1 Bandeirante.
To say accepting human lives against profit is acceptable is abhorrent to me, and I guess to a good many other folk in the business.
One could hazard a guess that perhaps it is safer today than was of yester year!
But just my opinion:
H/Snort.
Risk management
Having a little experience in the risk management area in aviation, plus a history in PNG, I cannot allow trhe previous comments to go unchallenged.
Risk assessment is a developing science, particularly in aviation. It takes into account a wide variety of threats, but also considers appropriate risk control measures. The purpose of risk assessment is not to find excuses to avoid certain types of operations, but to identify threats and apply appropriate control measures.
High risk activities take place in aviation every day, all over the world. Examples are ETOPS (a classic risk assessment strategy; considering the probability of an engine malfunction), ag flying (particularly night spraying), helicopter logging etc.
APNG have I am sure carefully considered the risks involved, and applied appropriate risk controls. These can include training, technology, techniques etc.
Nobody, but nobody, "accepts" an accident, nor are they as blase as you suggest about the loss of life involved.
The reasons that accidents occur in PNG are the same as the reasons they occur elsewhere; a compromise occurred. Sometimes that is due to human error, sometimes mechanical failure, sometimes due to external factors.
Flying in PNG remains no less safe than anywhere else - the environment and the procedures must be understood and respected.
Risk assessment is a developing science, particularly in aviation. It takes into account a wide variety of threats, but also considers appropriate risk control measures. The purpose of risk assessment is not to find excuses to avoid certain types of operations, but to identify threats and apply appropriate control measures.
High risk activities take place in aviation every day, all over the world. Examples are ETOPS (a classic risk assessment strategy; considering the probability of an engine malfunction), ag flying (particularly night spraying), helicopter logging etc.
APNG have I am sure carefully considered the risks involved, and applied appropriate risk controls. These can include training, technology, techniques etc.
Nobody, but nobody, "accepts" an accident, nor are they as blase as you suggest about the loss of life involved.
The reasons that accidents occur in PNG are the same as the reasons they occur elsewhere; a compromise occurred. Sometimes that is due to human error, sometimes mechanical failure, sometimes due to external factors.
Flying in PNG remains no less safe than anywhere else - the environment and the procedures must be understood and respected.
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Some 'see through cloud and rain' glasses for PNG pilots would be the best risk mitigation tool ever... Hopefully one day! 
But then you would need another 3 in the headset bag to mitigate the risk of them failing at the most inappropriate time...
But then you would need another 3 in the headset bag to mitigate the risk of them failing at the most inappropriate time...
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Foreign Correspondent on ABC 1 tonight at 8:00pm: "Last year we flew PNG's dangerous skies to expose the flaws in the system, and a government that didn't want to know. That official blind eye left deaths unanswered. Now as more families mourn has anything changed?"
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PNG - Return to the Fatal Sky - Foreign Correspondent - ABC
Return to the Fatal Sky
Broadcast: 18/08/2009
Reporter: Trevor Bormann
To travel any distance in PNG, air travel is often the only viable option.
At Mount Hagen in the PNG Highlands a mother and father grieve the loss of bright and ambitious son who yearned to take the helm of an international airliner. Their commercial pilot son perished in a light-plane crash 2 years earlier and yet PNG’s aviation regulators had failed to examine why the crash had occurred. Glen and Veronica Kundun wanted answers and there were none.
“This is a life we are talking about! There must be an investigation. We must get to the bottom of it. Whether it is a technical fault, whether it is pilot error, these things have got to be known.” GLEN KUNDUN, FATHER OF PILOT PATRICK
Foreign Correspondent exposed a litany of failures and witnessed sloppy standards and seat-of-the-pants procedures. Some of the aviation outfits flying the PNG skies were plain dangerous others were largely unregulated and then there were questions about the requisite skills of pilots.
Perhaps most alarming of all was the inability or unwillingness of authorities to investigate what happened after things did go wrong. Insiders - frustrated and disheartened - spoke out.
“If we have a major prang here we can’t do a damned thing. Nobody can do anything. Now that is very serious.” SIDNEY O’TOOLE
SENIOR AIR CRASH INVESTIGATOR
Aviation insiders like Sidney O’Toole told us that over the past two decades airline safety standards had ‘fallen over the edge‘ and some were predicting disaster. That disaster has come to pass with the loss of 13 lives in the crash of a Twin Otter plane enroute to Kokoda.
Foreign Correspondent revisits some of the glaring problems exposed in our 2008 report and importantly speaks again with some of the key identities who participated. Others in our story continue to mourn – including an Australian family who lost a loved one and who await vainly for answers.
New accounts and perspectives about a deeply troubled and dangerous industry – this time against the heart-breaking backdrop of the Kokoda tragedy.
And here is a link to their August 2008 report:
Papua New Guinea - The Fatal Sky - Foreign Correspondent - ABC
Di
Return to the Fatal Sky
Broadcast: 18/08/2009
Reporter: Trevor Bormann
To travel any distance in PNG, air travel is often the only viable option.At Mount Hagen in the PNG Highlands a mother and father grieve the loss of bright and ambitious son who yearned to take the helm of an international airliner. Their commercial pilot son perished in a light-plane crash 2 years earlier and yet PNG’s aviation regulators had failed to examine why the crash had occurred. Glen and Veronica Kundun wanted answers and there were none.
“This is a life we are talking about! There must be an investigation. We must get to the bottom of it. Whether it is a technical fault, whether it is pilot error, these things have got to be known.” GLEN KUNDUN, FATHER OF PILOT PATRICK
Foreign Correspondent exposed a litany of failures and witnessed sloppy standards and seat-of-the-pants procedures. Some of the aviation outfits flying the PNG skies were plain dangerous others were largely unregulated and then there were questions about the requisite skills of pilots.
Perhaps most alarming of all was the inability or unwillingness of authorities to investigate what happened after things did go wrong. Insiders - frustrated and disheartened - spoke out.
“If we have a major prang here we can’t do a damned thing. Nobody can do anything. Now that is very serious.” SIDNEY O’TOOLE
SENIOR AIR CRASH INVESTIGATOR
Aviation insiders like Sidney O’Toole told us that over the past two decades airline safety standards had ‘fallen over the edge‘ and some were predicting disaster. That disaster has come to pass with the loss of 13 lives in the crash of a Twin Otter plane enroute to Kokoda.
Foreign Correspondent revisits some of the glaring problems exposed in our 2008 report and importantly speaks again with some of the key identities who participated. Others in our story continue to mourn – including an Australian family who lost a loved one and who await vainly for answers.
New accounts and perspectives about a deeply troubled and dangerous industry – this time against the heart-breaking backdrop of the Kokoda tragedy.
And here is a link to their August 2008 report:
Papua New Guinea - The Fatal Sky - Foreign Correspondent - ABC
Di
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PNG crash investigator: I'm on my own
By Trevor Bormann for AM
13 killed: The wreckage of the Twin Otter in the jungle near the Kokoda Track (AAP: Dave Hunt)
It is almost a week since a chartered Twin Otter aircraft with 13 people on board slammed into a mountainside near the Kokoda Track, with nine Australians among the dead.
It may be weeks before their remains can be taken home.
Australian expatriate Sidney O'Toole, who runs PNG's Air Crash Investigation branch, has told ABC1's Foreign Correspondent he runs a ludicrously lean operation, with a staffing situation which is "beyond critical".
He says he has an office, but no computer or dedicated fax; even now he has to use his own mobile phone on the job.
"I'm on my Pat Malone, to coin a phrase, and there's no backup," Mr O'Toole said.
It might not be a problem if it wasn't for the fact that PNG's skies are some of the most dangerous in the world.
With roads unable to penetrate much of this mountainous country, Papua New Guinea is highly dependent on its air network.
But its changeable weather and tiny hillside airstrips make the country a perilous place to fly.
Melbourne man Laurie Leslie lost his pilot brother Ian in a crash in 2007.
Ian's body was recovered but the wreckage remains at the accident site and there was never a proper investigation.
"I believe I've got closure on Ian's passing, but I would like to know what was the cause of the accident," Mr Leslie said.
'We're desperate'
In the last year alone there have been another 12 air crashes and Mr O'Toole says he has not been able to make it to them all.
"Our staffing situation is beyond critical. When I use the word desperate, I mean how desperate is desperate - it's just ludicrous having one man," he said.
Life was beginning to turn around for Mr O'Toole, with a new Accident Investigation Commission set up to get funds flowing.
He was dispatched to Canada to take an engine from a crashed aircraft back to the manufacturer for examination, which is where he was when the Twin Otter crashed near Kokoda.
"I can't be in two places at the same time," he said.
"I look at the resources and everything that have been provided by the Australian Government and there was absolutely, positively no way that our commission or the government of Papua New Guinea could respond in that manner."
Aviation analysts say this should be the start of better cooperation on air safety between the two countries.
-Trevor Bormann's report can be seen on Foreign Correspondent tonight on ABC1 at 8:00pm.
Di
By Trevor Bormann for AM
13 killed: The wreckage of the Twin Otter in the jungle near the Kokoda Track (AAP: Dave Hunt)
- Audio: PNG crash was accident waiting to happen (AM)
- Related Story: Kokoda crash 'first to be properly investigated'
It is almost a week since a chartered Twin Otter aircraft with 13 people on board slammed into a mountainside near the Kokoda Track, with nine Australians among the dead.
It may be weeks before their remains can be taken home.
Australian expatriate Sidney O'Toole, who runs PNG's Air Crash Investigation branch, has told ABC1's Foreign Correspondent he runs a ludicrously lean operation, with a staffing situation which is "beyond critical".
He says he has an office, but no computer or dedicated fax; even now he has to use his own mobile phone on the job.
"I'm on my Pat Malone, to coin a phrase, and there's no backup," Mr O'Toole said.
It might not be a problem if it wasn't for the fact that PNG's skies are some of the most dangerous in the world.
With roads unable to penetrate much of this mountainous country, Papua New Guinea is highly dependent on its air network.
But its changeable weather and tiny hillside airstrips make the country a perilous place to fly.
Melbourne man Laurie Leslie lost his pilot brother Ian in a crash in 2007.
Ian's body was recovered but the wreckage remains at the accident site and there was never a proper investigation.
"I believe I've got closure on Ian's passing, but I would like to know what was the cause of the accident," Mr Leslie said.
'We're desperate'
In the last year alone there have been another 12 air crashes and Mr O'Toole says he has not been able to make it to them all.
"Our staffing situation is beyond critical. When I use the word desperate, I mean how desperate is desperate - it's just ludicrous having one man," he said.
Life was beginning to turn around for Mr O'Toole, with a new Accident Investigation Commission set up to get funds flowing.
He was dispatched to Canada to take an engine from a crashed aircraft back to the manufacturer for examination, which is where he was when the Twin Otter crashed near Kokoda.
"I can't be in two places at the same time," he said.
"I look at the resources and everything that have been provided by the Australian Government and there was absolutely, positively no way that our commission or the government of Papua New Guinea could respond in that manner."
Aviation analysts say this should be the start of better cooperation on air safety between the two countries.
-Trevor Bormann's report can be seen on Foreign Correspondent tonight on ABC1 at 8:00pm.
Di
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Some of those 'facts' aren't quite straight... Ian didn't crash in 2007. I had been flying past his plane on the side of a mountain for over a year by then... 2007 was the year of the fatal cargo Bandit crash on New Britain though.
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Does anyone have a picture of the Kokoda strip?
I have one here that shows it well but not sure how to load it up.
Whilst interesting to see the photo's and videos etc from Fane and the like and it brings back some fun memories from when I was flying there I think it might be a bit misleading to compare those to Kokoda.
Whilst the approach to Kokoda through the gap is quite difficult the strip itself is not quite as dramatic as those shown here.
I think that people saying they crashed on a go-around might be a bit misleading. More likely the case (and I am sitting half a world away now so this is only speculation from my previous knowledge of flying there) is that they where unable to land at Kokoda due weather and crashed en-route back to POM whilst trying to renavigate the gap.
I have one here that shows it well but not sure how to load it up.
Whilst interesting to see the photo's and videos etc from Fane and the like and it brings back some fun memories from when I was flying there I think it might be a bit misleading to compare those to Kokoda.
Whilst the approach to Kokoda through the gap is quite difficult the strip itself is not quite as dramatic as those shown here.
I think that people saying they crashed on a go-around might be a bit misleading. More likely the case (and I am sitting half a world away now so this is only speculation from my previous knowledge of flying there) is that they where unable to land at Kokoda due weather and crashed en-route back to POM whilst trying to renavigate the gap.