Merged: APNG Twin Otter Missing
Obie what are you on about?
Aviation in PNG has and will always be difficult. Not all countries have the luxury of the Australian wx, atc, low terrain and systems you know.
This has been the way since ww2 in PNG.
There will always be a risk in Aviation, in PNG there is even more.
I'm sure the Airline and the Flight crew do their best each and every day under what can only be described as trying conditions at best.
Nothing new, so stop the sensationalistic clap trap
Aviation in PNG has and will always be difficult. Not all countries have the luxury of the Australian wx, atc, low terrain and systems you know.
This has been the way since ww2 in PNG.
There will always be a risk in Aviation, in PNG there is even more.
I'm sure the Airline and the Flight crew do their best each and every day under what can only be described as trying conditions at best.
Nothing new, so stop the sensationalistic clap trap
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Yes Obie, simply because Kokoda does not have a nav aid or GPS approach it is by simple definition, VFR. That is the same for the majority of smaller PNG airports that are the lifeblood of the country.
Any navaids (even the RWY lights at POM)in PNG last as long as it takes the locals to nick the wires/lights/batteries because they have a better use for those items than any balus.
It is unwise to try and relate an Australian pilots organised cosy operating environment to that of those flying in PNG. There is no similarity. Not unsafe, just different considerations and practices developed to fit in with the operating environment that is awesome and beautiful but terribly unforgiving.
tipsy
Any navaids (even the RWY lights at POM)in PNG last as long as it takes the locals to nick the wires/lights/batteries because they have a better use for those items than any balus.
It is unwise to try and relate an Australian pilots organised cosy operating environment to that of those flying in PNG. There is no similarity. Not unsafe, just different considerations and practices developed to fit in with the operating environment that is awesome and beautiful but terribly unforgiving.
tipsy
Quote:
Strewth! The 7:30 Report will have a field day with this!!
Someone please take Kerry for a run around PNG
His rug would turn grey.
Strewth! The 7:30 Report will have a field day with this!!
Someone please take Kerry for a run around PNG
His rug would turn grey.
I think we should put them both (Kerry and Obie - by themselves of course) on a PMV to Gererhu and see how they like the "infrastructure"... and after we interview them (if they come back) we'll watch them run down to Jacksons so they can jump on the next PX balus to BNE or CNS escaping on the "freedom radial"...
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obie, no offense mate but in this case I suggest you keep your comments to yourself.
It is very clear from your posts that you are completely uneducated on and by no means aware of the very unique operating environment that is PNG. No where else like it in the world!!!
I suggest you just read this thread, you may learn something.
please take the advise, everyone who has flown in PNG is laughing at you..
It is very clear from your posts that you are completely uneducated on and by no means aware of the very unique operating environment that is PNG. No where else like it in the world!!!
I suggest you just read this thread, you may learn something.
please take the advise, everyone who has flown in PNG is laughing at you..
Last edited by campdoag; 12th Aug 2009 at 11:34. Reason: content
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Actually some of us are just sitting here shaking our heads.
Ah the good old days, tooing and froing to the jungles in the trusty ole Nomad.
Maybe the canopy 'round the gap is higher these days, used to be able to get through at 7000, back in the 70s!
Ah the good old days, tooing and froing to the jungles in the trusty ole Nomad.
Maybe the canopy 'round the gap is higher these days, used to be able to get through at 7000, back in the 70s!
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...well, at least wothee is getting my drift!
Obie. I would have sent you a Private Message but you've elected to block PMs from Mods, I'm too lazy to look in your profile for your email address, so I guess my message to you must unfortunately be public.
Your abysmal lack of PNG aviation knowledge is obvious....... Unpressurised GA aircraft in PNG spend their entire life below LSALT. In the interior of the country there are no nav aids for safety reasons. All operations, including RPT are VFR.
Read and learn. Don't criticise what you don't understand. PNG has trained some of the finest aviators, including I'm sure, the pilots of the APNG Twin Otter.
Tail Wheel
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Obie. I would have sent you a Private Message but you've elected to block PMs from Mods, I'm too lazy to look in your profile for your email address, so I guess my message to you must unfortunately be public.
Your abysmal lack of PNG aviation knowledge is obvious....... Unpressurised GA aircraft in PNG spend their entire life below LSALT. In the interior of the country there are no nav aids for safety reasons. All operations, including RPT are VFR.
Read and learn. Don't criticise what you don't understand. PNG has trained some of the finest aviators, including I'm sure, the pilots of the APNG Twin Otter.
Tail Wheel
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Spent 8 years up there with TAA on the Twotters, and DC3's, so feel very sad about the accident, but knowing the area, can well imagine it happening, especially the north side, used to be 8/8s a lot of the time.
Grandpa Aerotart
No Obie whothe is not getting 'your drift' he is shaking his head at your naive statements/questions...as am I.
PNG is different to Australia. PNG relies near totally on aircraft and coastal shipping for transport - there are a few roads but the number is so small it is meaningless when you take into account the dangers inherent in driving anywhere outside the main coastal towns.
The aircraft PNG relies on are for the most part GA level - Twin Otters/Islanders etc. There are maybe 15 destinations domestically that can cope with aircraft Dash 8 size and maybe 10 that can cope with a jet like an F28 (in my day)/F100. Not all of those 'main ports' have reliable terrestrial navaids...it wasn't unusual to operate F28s 'visually' - it was common to operate the Dash 7 that way on RPT flights.
To give those numbers some scale I operated in/out of 318 bush strips (total was north of 400 'licensed' bush strips in PNG) in my time in Talair etc on RPT flights.
So the VAST bulk of flying in PNG is pure VFR tropical jungle bush flying - with all that entails weather/terrain wise - mostly operating to some form of schedule. I don't know the exact % but probably 75% of the PNG population still lives in villages in remote swamps/coastal areas/Islands or high mountain valleys completely cut off from the world outside that valley except via a grass strip cut into whatever terrain the village was built on 1000 yrs before aircraft were invented.
high 6 mentioned the walk from Isurava to Lake Myola taking 2 days - it is about 2 minutes in a Twin Otter. That give you some sense of the terrain?
In the mountains GPS is of very limited value (in fact it is near useless) and I point blank, absolutely refuse to believe this crew was fcking around with TAWs/EGPWS. You do spend your entire working day 7-10000' below 'lowest safe' altitudes.
PNG is terribly unforgiving of a bad decision. It will never be different. It is at the same time the most wonderfully satisfying flying and the most deadly.
It has as much similarity to operating in Australia as the Space Shuttle program does to QF's B744 operations.
PNG is different to Australia. PNG relies near totally on aircraft and coastal shipping for transport - there are a few roads but the number is so small it is meaningless when you take into account the dangers inherent in driving anywhere outside the main coastal towns.
The aircraft PNG relies on are for the most part GA level - Twin Otters/Islanders etc. There are maybe 15 destinations domestically that can cope with aircraft Dash 8 size and maybe 10 that can cope with a jet like an F28 (in my day)/F100. Not all of those 'main ports' have reliable terrestrial navaids...it wasn't unusual to operate F28s 'visually' - it was common to operate the Dash 7 that way on RPT flights.
To give those numbers some scale I operated in/out of 318 bush strips (total was north of 400 'licensed' bush strips in PNG) in my time in Talair etc on RPT flights.
So the VAST bulk of flying in PNG is pure VFR tropical jungle bush flying - with all that entails weather/terrain wise - mostly operating to some form of schedule. I don't know the exact % but probably 75% of the PNG population still lives in villages in remote swamps/coastal areas/Islands or high mountain valleys completely cut off from the world outside that valley except via a grass strip cut into whatever terrain the village was built on 1000 yrs before aircraft were invented.
high 6 mentioned the walk from Isurava to Lake Myola taking 2 days - it is about 2 minutes in a Twin Otter. That give you some sense of the terrain?
In the mountains GPS is of very limited value (in fact it is near useless) and I point blank, absolutely refuse to believe this crew was fcking around with TAWs/EGPWS. You do spend your entire working day 7-10000' below 'lowest safe' altitudes.
PNG is terribly unforgiving of a bad decision. It will never be different. It is at the same time the most wonderfully satisfying flying and the most deadly.
It has as much similarity to operating in Australia as the Space Shuttle program does to QF's B744 operations.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 12th Aug 2009 at 13:06.
I’m not going to shoot at Obie… he’s already proven his point… or lack there of.
Having about 3500hr in the Twin Otter and a bit of it in PNG I have to explain a couple things to those who have not been there.
As already stated, planes are like busses in PNG, if it fits, it flies, or it never gets there full stop. Depending upon the season you can set your watch by the weather knowing that you need to finish your work in the mornings and take the arvo off, even then the mornings can be ****e too!
The only comparable region I personally know were the hills in northern Angola, granted they are not as big, but the valleys were the same, twisted & convoluted sometimes with a way out sometimes not, and usually no where to turn. Wx was just as cruddy, with low stratus and 99% humidity.
The PIC would not have been there if they could not cut the mustard and made their decision to abandon the approach for more than likely a good reason. Its however unfortunate that, this maneuver has lead to other issues.
Having flown one of the first Otter with EGPWS up there (a long time ago), honestly it was more than useless as more of than not the airport was not in the database and terrain inhibit was the norm….. Terrain-Terrain….. Great PNG railways!!!
Any remote idea that a crew would conduct an IMC approach to a VFR airport using EGPWS guidance is on par with those who wear the funny white jackets that do up at the back.
Having about 3500hr in the Twin Otter and a bit of it in PNG I have to explain a couple things to those who have not been there.
As already stated, planes are like busses in PNG, if it fits, it flies, or it never gets there full stop. Depending upon the season you can set your watch by the weather knowing that you need to finish your work in the mornings and take the arvo off, even then the mornings can be ****e too!
The only comparable region I personally know were the hills in northern Angola, granted they are not as big, but the valleys were the same, twisted & convoluted sometimes with a way out sometimes not, and usually no where to turn. Wx was just as cruddy, with low stratus and 99% humidity.
The PIC would not have been there if they could not cut the mustard and made their decision to abandon the approach for more than likely a good reason. Its however unfortunate that, this maneuver has lead to other issues.
Having flown one of the first Otter with EGPWS up there (a long time ago), honestly it was more than useless as more of than not the airport was not in the database and terrain inhibit was the norm….. Terrain-Terrain….. Great PNG railways!!!
Any remote idea that a crew would conduct an IMC approach to a VFR airport using EGPWS guidance is on par with those who wear the funny white jackets that do up at the back.
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Recieved two conflicting stories now...
was this on the Pom or kokoda side of the saddle that it went in?
...
oh and for the boofhead obie, added a pic of an old map for you....
for the go-arounds.. our company policy in png was zero,zilch,nada
go arounds permitted.. as we could be committed to land in a few cases before u even see the strip... the only way to execute the 180 to get out of some of these valleys is to turn around after landing and point her back out... 99% are one way strips <600m at >5000' with >10% gradient.
someone want to post up the pom aloteu (think its N15) cant find mine atm...
although chimbu as usual very clear description a picture can paint a thousand words... wish i could remember the runs as clearly as that.. cant even remember where i went today...
was this on the Pom or kokoda side of the saddle that it went in?
...
oh and for the boofhead obie, added a pic of an old map for you....
for the go-arounds.. our company policy in png was zero,zilch,nada
go arounds permitted.. as we could be committed to land in a few cases before u even see the strip... the only way to execute the 180 to get out of some of these valleys is to turn around after landing and point her back out... 99% are one way strips <600m at >5000' with >10% gradient.
someone want to post up the pom aloteu (think its N15) cant find mine atm...
although chimbu as usual very clear description a picture can paint a thousand words... wish i could remember the runs as clearly as that.. cant even remember where i went today...
Last edited by Xcel; 12th Aug 2009 at 13:34.
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Seems as though my last post was deleted because it contained the 'condolences' word...
That aside, having flown in that environment and operated in and out of the strips concerned, I do have empathy for the crew and the pax who are no longer with us. For the armchair experts discussing the event now by proxy it appears I'm not the only one who is a bit 'put off' with some of the comments
It might sound condescending, but unless you have been there and done it you really do have no idea of the uniqueness of the environment and challenges there to be faced. Hence no right to pontificate...
One thing I learned quickly in PNG is that there is a lot more 'grey area' flying than what could possibly be imagined in Australia. A pilot has to exercise more judgement in the PNG environment than in perhaps most others, and even if he does everything right, can still fall victim to bad circumstance. PNG has been described as 'unforgiving' for very good reason.
Would be interested to hear more about where the crash was finally located - anyone?
That aside, having flown in that environment and operated in and out of the strips concerned, I do have empathy for the crew and the pax who are no longer with us. For the armchair experts discussing the event now by proxy it appears I'm not the only one who is a bit 'put off' with some of the comments
It might sound condescending, but unless you have been there and done it you really do have no idea of the uniqueness of the environment and challenges there to be faced. Hence no right to pontificate...
One thing I learned quickly in PNG is that there is a lot more 'grey area' flying than what could possibly be imagined in Australia. A pilot has to exercise more judgement in the PNG environment than in perhaps most others, and even if he does everything right, can still fall victim to bad circumstance. PNG has been described as 'unforgiving' for very good reason.
Would be interested to hear more about where the crash was finally located - anyone?
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obie,
It seems a number of PPRuNers are trying to tell you that it's not easy flying in PNG (or, as I knew it, TPNG).
Look at: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/n...576-sc55-7.jpg
Find Efogi on the map, and then work out from the contours just what you are facing in terms of 'challenges' in that tiny area of PNG alone.............you can takeoff from Efogi and straight away be on a right base for Kagi! As was depicted pictorially in a previous post on this thread. Notice the steepness of the strip depicted? Well, obie, that one was 'tame' compared to some operated into as a matter of course day-in day-out in all sorts of weather in some areas of PNG at a time when no-one had GPS and you REALLY needed to know what you were doing to ensure your (continued) survival in what at times were bl00dy dangerous conditions!
And guess what obie..........it's the same through other areas of PNG! Try Komo for example. Or getting into Mendi from, say Moro, in sh1t weather. Or Tari on some mornings!
Wise words are being spoken on this thread from literally 000's and 000's of hours of collective experience of PNG flying obie, so maybe take heed of what other posters and Tail Wheel are trying to tell you.
Thank you!
It seems a number of PPRuNers are trying to tell you that it's not easy flying in PNG (or, as I knew it, TPNG).
Look at: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/n...576-sc55-7.jpg
Find Efogi on the map, and then work out from the contours just what you are facing in terms of 'challenges' in that tiny area of PNG alone.............you can takeoff from Efogi and straight away be on a right base for Kagi! As was depicted pictorially in a previous post on this thread. Notice the steepness of the strip depicted? Well, obie, that one was 'tame' compared to some operated into as a matter of course day-in day-out in all sorts of weather in some areas of PNG at a time when no-one had GPS and you REALLY needed to know what you were doing to ensure your (continued) survival in what at times were bl00dy dangerous conditions!
And guess what obie..........it's the same through other areas of PNG! Try Komo for example. Or getting into Mendi from, say Moro, in sh1t weather. Or Tari on some mornings!
Wise words are being spoken on this thread from literally 000's and 000's of hours of collective experience of PNG flying obie, so maybe take heed of what other posters and Tail Wheel are trying to tell you.
Thank you!
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Actually some of us are just sitting here shaking our heads.
Thats PNG folks not for sissies, airlines of PNG formerly MBA is a great outfit with very good standards particularly for the environment they operate in. Plenty of experience within the company to match, this is another just another case of this challenging flying environment claiming a few more lives (Yes airplanes do still crash these days), no approach charts, radar vectors, "Request Radar Terrain" in the Owen Stanleys. Hearts out to all the families who lost loved ones, too the Pilots "Lookim You Wantoks"
Chimbu Chuckles... Maayte.. You need re-ejukaytion . Oztraylia is the center of the aviation universe. We all know this!!
No one knows better how to operate everywhere else in the world better than an Aussie - especially one who hasn't.
To Obie (the trainee journo) and your media mates, for once please allow fact to get in the way of this story. Get your cheap shots in somewhere else.
No one knows better how to operate everywhere else in the world better than an Aussie - especially one who hasn't.
To Obie (the trainee journo) and your media mates, for once please allow fact to get in the way of this story. Get your cheap shots in somewhere else.
Obie you cannot compare flying in Oz to flying in PNG. The only similarity is that they are both done in aircraft. When your terms of reference are invalid then so too are arguments/opinions.
Next time, rather than shooting from the hip how bout doing some research and then you will be able to offer a less ignorant post.
Next time, rather than shooting from the hip how bout doing some research and then you will be able to offer a less ignorant post.
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Find Efogi on the map, and then work out from the contours just what you are facing in terms of 'challenges' in that tiny area of PNG alone--