QF Staff Travel. FA jump seat use
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i have been very happy over 25 years to allow my cabin crew rest seats to be used by the family of the operating tech crew or cabin crew on the day. Even on flights where we didnt have bunks we have not left family members behind.
Jump seats are a different story... they are for the operating crew only in my opinion. Should never be used by non operating crew. I dont think that passengers should ever see non crew in those seats. It would also mean that the "passengers" in a crew jumpseat would also get a "flame Orange" life jacket like an operating crew member...and i am surprised that CASA would permit that.
Seems to me that the Qantas Chief Pilot has interpreted his ability to make such a ruling without consulting any other stakeholders... perhaps even CASA
As i said i am happy where possible to have crew families in the crew rest seats...its a pity the Tech crew never EVER give up their crew rest seats for families. We all get tired and have a legal entitlement to rest seats but the tech crew never give theirs up
Jump seats are a different story... they are for the operating crew only in my opinion. Should never be used by non operating crew. I dont think that passengers should ever see non crew in those seats. It would also mean that the "passengers" in a crew jumpseat would also get a "flame Orange" life jacket like an operating crew member...and i am surprised that CASA would permit that.
Seems to me that the Qantas Chief Pilot has interpreted his ability to make such a ruling without consulting any other stakeholders... perhaps even CASA
As i said i am happy where possible to have crew families in the crew rest seats...its a pity the Tech crew never EVER give up their crew rest seats for families. We all get tired and have a legal entitlement to rest seats but the tech crew never give theirs up
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My only comment would be that it is spare jumpseat usage. As crew are now down to the minimum, there are spare seats in some cases. Now knowing Qantas, unless its a double jumpseat, I am surprised they havent removed them for weight saving......
So bare in mind - the seat is surplus to requirements. I am pretty sure it doesnt have to be there, so whether a staff uses it or not is irrelevant.
So bare in mind - the seat is surplus to requirements. I am pretty sure it doesnt have to be there, so whether a staff uses it or not is irrelevant.
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its a pity the Tech crew never EVER give up their crew rest seats for families. We all get tired and have a legal entitlement to rest seats but the tech crew never give theirs up
In my experience, refusal for a tech crew rest seat happens when the tech crew rest is required for CASA limits, of which there are several complex pages worth to consider, and also when it cannot be occupied for takeoff/landing. It's not just a simple matter of the total tour of duty, and busting them is not an option for us. We have licences which are quite "loseable", remember. In fact not that long ago we operated a 3 pilot crew and all actually agreed to forfeit the crew rest (despite it being specifically set up for our flight) so that a family member could get on. However we first had to check the limitations to ensure that it was not legally required.
In my experience the vast majority (yes there are always exceptions) go out of their way to accomodate both tech & cabin crew family members accompanying operating crew.
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Tech and Cabin Crew both have "legal" entitlements to Crew rest seats and bunks.....
Tech crew entitlements come from their EBA's and the CASA regs and the Cabin Crew come solely from their EBA which is also a "legal" entitlement.
The cabin crew rest was fought for by strike action in the 1980's and i for one will still show sensible discretion to assist familes of tech and cabin crew when possible.
We just have to agree to disagree about the use of crew jumpseats. I think from a marketing perspective its a poor decision. And Twiggs the CSM workstation is not for passengers to sit in. and since the reduction of Cabin crew rest seats with the reconfiguration of the 747 Crew rest under the stairs, those curtained seats at R2 are either work areas for crew setting up carts for meal services or additional crew rest seats for eating meals or resting.
I just dont know where some of these idiotic ideas come from...
Crew dont all work in a zone of the aircraft where there jumpseat is and when needed to be seated in an emergency all the jumpseats need to be available for operating crew to sit down in an emergency.
As i said we will have to agree to disagree but i think the people that have paid extra for the exit row seats would not be happy having a passenger facing them for the flight like they are in a railway carraige, nor having the additional space that they have paid for encroached by an airline employees travel accessory.
Buy back up tickets like all the other Qantas Staff have to do when they travel or get the respective unions to negotiate some sort of "firm" travel if accompanying a crew member on a duty but stay away from operating crew jumpseats.
Tech crew entitlements come from their EBA's and the CASA regs and the Cabin Crew come solely from their EBA which is also a "legal" entitlement.
The cabin crew rest was fought for by strike action in the 1980's and i for one will still show sensible discretion to assist familes of tech and cabin crew when possible.
We just have to agree to disagree about the use of crew jumpseats. I think from a marketing perspective its a poor decision. And Twiggs the CSM workstation is not for passengers to sit in. and since the reduction of Cabin crew rest seats with the reconfiguration of the 747 Crew rest under the stairs, those curtained seats at R2 are either work areas for crew setting up carts for meal services or additional crew rest seats for eating meals or resting.
I just dont know where some of these idiotic ideas come from...
Crew dont all work in a zone of the aircraft where there jumpseat is and when needed to be seated in an emergency all the jumpseats need to be available for operating crew to sit down in an emergency.
As i said we will have to agree to disagree but i think the people that have paid extra for the exit row seats would not be happy having a passenger facing them for the flight like they are in a railway carraige, nor having the additional space that they have paid for encroached by an airline employees travel accessory.
Buy back up tickets like all the other Qantas Staff have to do when they travel or get the respective unions to negotiate some sort of "firm" travel if accompanying a crew member on a duty but stay away from operating crew jumpseats.
Seems to me that the Qantas Chief Pilot has interpreted his ability to make such a ruling without consulting any other stakeholders... perhaps even CASA
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Usually I agree with your posts Pegasus, but to call these ideas idiotic is idiotic.
Why can a CSM workstation not be used during flight?
It regularly gets used now when staff using cabin crew rest need to vacate the seats while crew are having their breaks.
It has a seat belt just as the high comfort seat does, and providing crew are OK with it, why shouldn't it be used during flight?
Why can a CSM workstation not be used during flight?
It regularly gets used now when staff using cabin crew rest need to vacate the seats while crew are having their breaks.
It has a seat belt just as the high comfort seat does, and providing crew are OK with it, why shouldn't it be used during flight?
It appears QF may be following the BA policy where the surplus 'jump seats' are available to all staff. The BA staff travel website has a box you tick if you are willing to travel in a 'jump seat' if offered.
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I too think it is a good idea, as long as some very clear communications are given to the CC world. So far, we have received nothing to advise on the procedure to follow. Yes, the FSO is in place, but the average CC does not have a great deal of awareness of these, and would never see one.
I personally have been helped THAT many times by generous flight crew I have lost count. A big thank you!!!!!!
I like to think we can help out our collegues, by allowing the use of cc rest seats where possible, but as has been said, this option gives control back to the captain( yes I am aware of the chain of command and CASR91) which is as it should be.
What I can aggree with Peg on is, the look in the cabin is not brilliant, as it is true we are always trying to get pax off those seats.....
In the end, I hope that common sense prevails....too optimistic????
I personally have been helped THAT many times by generous flight crew I have lost count. A big thank you!!!!!!
I like to think we can help out our collegues, by allowing the use of cc rest seats where possible, but as has been said, this option gives control back to the captain( yes I am aware of the chain of command and CASR91) which is as it should be.
What I can aggree with Peg on is, the look in the cabin is not brilliant, as it is true we are always trying to get pax off those seats.....
In the end, I hope that common sense prevails....too optimistic????
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Funbags..I'm glad you will not be responding to my posts because your replies are to be honest not much of a challenge and are less than astute.They show a basic inadequacy that belie your understanding of aviation and life in general....
This is about the use of CC jumpseats by staff which I disagree with on a safety basis.....You cannot escape talking about the flight deck for even one post and this shows how myopic you really are...
By the way I was under the impression that we were talking about operating crew family members....and those were the staff pax that i was saying are unable to use the flight deck .....Einstein
This is about the use of CC jumpseats by staff which I disagree with on a safety basis.....You cannot escape talking about the flight deck for even one post and this shows how myopic you really are...
By the way I was under the impression that we were talking about operating crew family members....and those were the staff pax that i was saying are unable to use the flight deck .....Einstein
Nunc est bibendum
Cathay have had a similar system for quite a long time too. I recall in '99 on a very full CX flight HKG-SYD talking to a F/O who was traveling in one of the 'assist' positions. It didn't seem to be a major drama.
Pegasus, the chip on the shoulder is obvious and disappointing. I've seen the tech crew rest given up to cabin crew (and their beneficiaries) whenever it's not been in use by the tech crew- both 767 and 744. That would amount to dozens and dozens of times over the last decade. In fact, I've never seen the contrary. It's alway been available when not required by the techies.
However, I can always review my opinion on the matter and start refusing it now. I'll be sure to mention you as the reason.
...its a pity the Tech crew never EVER give up their crew rest seats for families.
However, I can always review my opinion on the matter and start refusing it now. I'll be sure to mention you as the reason.
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Keg,
There is a difference between tech crew, crew rest seat and jump seat which I believe is the point Peg747 was making.
When cabin crew facilitate staff uplift on full aircraft they do so by giving up their crew rest seat rather than in the case of pilots, an unused jump seat.
But of course you knew all that anyway........
There is a difference between tech crew, crew rest seat and jump seat which I believe is the point Peg747 was making.
When cabin crew facilitate staff uplift on full aircraft they do so by giving up their crew rest seat rather than in the case of pilots, an unused jump seat.
But of course you knew all that anyway........
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by all means do so Keg....
I am asked for cabin crew rest seats very often and have never refused anyone..tech or cabin crew....
But by all means you can over react to whatever you like Keg... obviously great leadership and maturity displayed there... hopefully you are not in actual command of anything as that sort of reaction doesnt display any maturity whatsoever... Guess thats to be expected of people not recruited for maturity or personal skills....
notwithstanding your immaturity i will still continue to assist tech and cabin crew families with the use of the seats that are under my control (CC rest seats) subject to the views of the other operating crew....I am just saying i dont agree with the use of jump seats...
by all means KEG.....give the tech crew rest to your families when not in use... they are yours to do as you wish as are the CC rest seats ours.... Just because i have never seen tech crew rest seats used in my 25 years experience doesnt mean it has never happened....
But i have certainly seen CC seats requested and agreed to regularly....if you decide not to offer your seats "when they are not in use" in future because of something i have posted i would suggest you are rather sad
I am asked for cabin crew rest seats very often and have never refused anyone..tech or cabin crew....
But by all means you can over react to whatever you like Keg... obviously great leadership and maturity displayed there... hopefully you are not in actual command of anything as that sort of reaction doesnt display any maturity whatsoever... Guess thats to be expected of people not recruited for maturity or personal skills....
notwithstanding your immaturity i will still continue to assist tech and cabin crew families with the use of the seats that are under my control (CC rest seats) subject to the views of the other operating crew....I am just saying i dont agree with the use of jump seats...
by all means KEG.....give the tech crew rest to your families when not in use... they are yours to do as you wish as are the CC rest seats ours.... Just because i have never seen tech crew rest seats used in my 25 years experience doesnt mean it has never happened....
But i have certainly seen CC seats requested and agreed to regularly....if you decide not to offer your seats "when they are not in use" in future because of something i have posted i would suggest you are rather sad
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I have been told by a fairly senior CSM that in the last EBA one of the 'gives' for the CC was they no longer had the right to vote on the rest seats..ie it was Captains choice. I know the FAM still states that it is up to the CC, and when I queried him on this he said that QF were yet to catch up with the new provisions. Can someone confirm or deny this?
Not a wind up, not trying to get anyones nose out of joint..
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Not a wind up, not trying to get anyones nose out of joint..
Cheers
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Astroboy55, I'm afraid you were being wound up, or that senior CSM doesn't know what they are talking about.
It is a cabin crew decision.
And as far as I know, it's not a vote.
If one person disagrees, then it's no.
Pegasus will confirm.
It is a cabin crew decision.
And as far as I know, it's not a vote.
If one person disagrees, then it's no.
Pegasus will confirm.
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The CSM yu spoke to was wrong....has nothing to do with the EBA and never has.... its Qantas Policy and in fact the position of the crew is actually strengthened
CCOM states clearly that Cabin crew determine who get the seats. It must be unanimous of all Operating Crew. If one crew member (cabin) says no then no one can use the rest seats.
The role of the Captain is firstly to be advised that the Cabin Crew have offered the seats... The captain will then determine whether that fits with the weight and balance and fuel requirements. If the captain determines that by offering the seats there are no implacations for the Aircraft then he/she will advise ground staff that the use of the seats is authorised.
It is the CSM that will then advise which passengers ( by name) who will be allowed to use the seats. If the passengers are subsequently offered a passenger seat and the crew seats are not required by them, the ground staff "may" approach the CSM to see if the seats are available for anyone else and that will then be either authorised or denied by the CSM.
That is what is contained in Qantas Policy as negotiated by the FAAA in the CCOM.....
The seats are at ALL times under the control of the operating cabin crew who are the only ones that can determine who may use them. The captain as the PIC has the ultimate say in whether they may be used or not but NOT who can use them.
CCOM states clearly that Cabin crew determine who get the seats. It must be unanimous of all Operating Crew. If one crew member (cabin) says no then no one can use the rest seats.
The role of the Captain is firstly to be advised that the Cabin Crew have offered the seats... The captain will then determine whether that fits with the weight and balance and fuel requirements. If the captain determines that by offering the seats there are no implacations for the Aircraft then he/she will advise ground staff that the use of the seats is authorised.
It is the CSM that will then advise which passengers ( by name) who will be allowed to use the seats. If the passengers are subsequently offered a passenger seat and the crew seats are not required by them, the ground staff "may" approach the CSM to see if the seats are available for anyone else and that will then be either authorised or denied by the CSM.
That is what is contained in Qantas Policy as negotiated by the FAAA in the CCOM.....
The seats are at ALL times under the control of the operating cabin crew who are the only ones that can determine who may use them. The captain as the PIC has the ultimate say in whether they may be used or not but NOT who can use them.