PAX get angry at YPPH

[ampclamp]

capt claret

Good post CC.Sometimes you just cant win.
When I u/s a jet I think of a sensible time to fix and double it.There are nearly always peripheral issues to slow the process down. Stores,lack of bits in port, online maintenance doc's (pain and suffering in many cases) manpower / licence coverage, EA issuance, finding other problems as you carry out maintenance etc...

As for info passed onto pax I am surprisd sometimes at the flt crews honesty and detail they go into.I cant recall a PA where they've fed them nonsense.
What happens in the terminal I am not fully across but it seems to be practice to see dispatch times creep back in increments rather than the full monty up front.Its tough for them for a number of reasons.

I suspect as you say its about trying to keep the pax together when things are ready to go.They will wander off to bars, restaurants, wherever to pass the time (understandably) , some dont come back and then the porters go bag hunting to unload the luggage

I'm not in perth so cant comment directly but lightning strikes take a long time to chk and you dont know its serviceable until the last inspection has been done.Perth being as remote as you can get in the western world is always a problem with replacement aircraft.The plane shuffling no doubt is a shocker.Crewing issues etc.Tough job.

I do believe, as others have posted, that there have been societal changes.A culture of complaint and entitlement (warranted or not ) where nothing is my fault and I deserve better and I deserve it now.

[ROH111]

Ahhh Monday's experts.

This post is about angry pax in Perth. Society is becoming very me me me, it is everywhere.

BUT as always, pprune should be renamed. This time to "QB".. the first opportunity that you guys see, you go about Qantas Bashin'.

The one's standing up for QF are clearly the one's in.. but as is basic maths, there are more out than there are in.. hence the toppled nature of the arguments.

Anyhow, back to it.

[aveng]

It makes me ashamed to be from Perth sometimes! Teresa is right, people never used to act like this. While airlines hold some responsibility for the way they manage delays, pax need to realise they are responsible for their own reactions, and it is NOT an excuse to act like animals.

There is an explanation to some of the behavior in Perth -

C.U.B. = cashed up bogans.

You'd be surprised how many fly in fly out miners from interstate are on these midnight flights - usually fully juiced on sherbets!

[Boomerang_Butt]

Aveng, I didn't want to be the one to say it....

Guess from the lack of mention of the problems on the east coast that no one thinks it might possibly have been relevant...? E.g no reserve cabin crew coverage, no extra aircraft, no ability to depart flights to Melbourne/Sydney, more than just 1 disrupted flight, many of those pax inconvenienced before the Perth flight had a problem... etc etc etc... all would have had a flow-on effect as to QF's (and DJ's & JQ's) ability to manage severe delays on the night in question.

With regard to contigency plans being set in motion asap... all due respect, a certain amount of time has to pass before things are done like calling hotels, arranging vouchers etc... if this was done every time as soon as a delay started, it'd be a huge waste of time & resources as most delays do not end in situations as described above. I think in 4 years of flying I've only ever had 3 delays end up as canx flights. So to take essential ground staff from the desk and send them arranging hotels 1 hour in may make sense to the pax, but it doesn't make sense from a terminal/admin point of view. (Not saying this is right this is just how it is) As Murphy's law says as soon as you pack them off after 2 hours the problem will be fixed. So, not too smart to send people to hotels every time you cop a 2-4hour delay.

Agree with Claret that if you tell people a delay will be xx time, guaranteed half the pax will run off to the bar (especially in Perth). Sometimes if you think a delay is only going to be an hour or two, better to keep everyone in one spot ready to go. Lost count of the number of times we had to roam the terminal trying to find disappeared pax only to eventually offload bags when they failed to re-show, causing more delay than the original problem. One operator in Perth had the idea to collect phone numbers so pax could be called back if departure became earlier than anticipated. Unfortunately, some pax would still be having too much fun at the pub and not bother to come back.... Not sure what QF ground crew are trained too do, but the practise of taking a 'fix time' & doubling it is great if you get it done sooner, then everyone thinks you're a hero

[assasin8]

Ah, the "RuNe" experts are at it again (I've left the "PP" bit out as this forum doesn't deserve it!)...

Before anyone makes a judgement call, ask yourself if you were there and do you have all the facts? Now, by "facts", I don't mean the crap that's dished out by the media (we all know just how good they are at reporting aviation related stories!).

Sh!t happens! Aircraft components do break down... Engineers do an excellent job at fixing things, but can't always predict EXACTLY how long it will take, especially when more damage is discovered than what was originally thought... The whole process takes time and it can roll on... Frustrating, yes, but it's a fact!

Airlines don't have spare aircraft and crew just hanging around at every port just waiting for unforeseen circumstances! If passengers were prepared to pay extra for their tickets, then I'm sure "backup" could be everywhere... But they're not!

So, let's all grow up, start acting like adults and leave the attitude and "expert commentary" at home.

[westausatc]

I agree with Teresa et al about the whole 'me, me, me' societal thing.

However, Q (and all others in the aviation industry) are in the position of providing a service. If the people that Q gets to pay for a seat are from a 'me, me ,me' society, then Q have to adjust to that. We can lament it all we want on this website (trust me, my kids have heard 'you just need to harden up' more times than they have had hot dinners!) but at the end of the day, Q is in business to serve the society it is a part of. If that means that they need to pass on information more quickly (even if it incurs the wrath of the guests), then that is what they need to do.

From my perspective in the industry, there seems to be a reluctance to pass on information about the delays/problems that are going to happen/are happening. All of this is done as it is easier and it 'helps' to save face in the short term. If this is not changed, people will soon get jack of the lack of service (given the 'me, me, me' of our society) and decide to travel to different locations by different means. This will certainly be a loss to all of us and something we should be striving to avoid.

[Pedota]

ROH111 – You are absolutely right. I wasn’t there and I don’t know the facts. And as I said in an earlier post, I am sure everyone did their best to resolve the matter the best way they could given a compounding situation. That said, I don’t believe I am one of those Qantas Bashin’, as you put it. I too stand up for Qantas – it’s a great airline and I for one am very keen to keep it just that way. Indeed, that is my point.

That said, in my opinion customers are asking about the ‘value’ of paying for a ‘full service’ airline v’s a ‘low cost’ carrier.

Lowerlobe – Yes, if my wife knew exactly what time her commitments were going to finish she would have booked a flight to suit that time. One of the reasons she (and numerous others) pay premium fares with a ‘full service’ airline is to have the flexibility of making changes at the last minute. This is how business customers operate. I respect your right to disagree with this, but in my opinion the airline that can meet that expectation will win. Otherwise customers will simply ‘lock in’ to the $39 with a ‘low cost’ carrier and wait until the prescribed time.

Assasin8 – so, I could not agree more that . . . “Aircraft components do break down... Engineers do an excellent job at fixing things, but can't always predict EXACTLY how long it will take, especially when more damage is discovered than what was originally thought... The whole process takes time and it can roll on... Frustrating, yes, but it's a fact!”

However, from a customer’s point of view the difference is how well the airline recovers from such a situation.

If ‘full service’ airlines don’t have “spare aircraft and crew just hanging around at every port just waiting for unforeseen circumstances” (ie fleet and crew flexibility to recover from scheduling problems), what then is the value of a ‘full service’ airline over a ‘low cost’ airline?

Some passengers do indeed pay extra to ‘full service’ airlines with the expectation that there will be something of value return – and I can assure you it is not the food served in flight. And the bulk of them that I know don’t check in any baggage either.

I don’t for a moment condone ‘mob rules’ behaviour in any situation like what may have happened in Perth the other evening. But to simply pass it off as ‘bogan’ behaviour is also misleading. Don’t you sense there might be an emerging theme that customers are expecting what they have paid for?

Cheers to all

Pedota

[Long Bay Mauler]

The facts of the matter are that:

1. The Perth engineers declared the aircraft unserviceable early on as they had to do their inspections.As these take time and given the inclement weather,the powers that be should have recognised an impending PR disaster loomimg.

2. The decision making by those in Sydney Ops of whether the damage was within limits or not,should have led someone to the conclusion to cancel the flight early on.

Those who have been involved in lightning strike inspections know that it takes a long enough time to inspect the aircraft in good conditions e.g. a hangar with good lighting. Those guys in Perth that night were inspecting the aircraft from nose to tail in squally rain and wind, on a cherry picker at 2 o'clock in the morning,with further prospect of a lightning storm being in the area.The aircraft would have been swaying like a bucking bronco with droplets of water covering the skin thus further distorting the inspection process.

So can you honestly believe that a proper decsion can be made quickly in those conditions,added with every man and his dog asking "is it fixed yet",and given the terrible weather conditions that were apparently in the area.

For me,I dont think so.It was Sydneys decision to cancel the flight,and not Perths I believe.

Hopefully a lesson will be learnt(but I doubt it) that in really bad,ongoing weather,that sometimes it is easier to just cancel the flight,let the crew get to the hotel to restart the clock,and start again in 10 hours.Hopefully then Qantas will be commended for decisive decision making,and not what we saw the other night on the news.

[Arnold E]

It amazes me how some of you PP's talk about the people that pay your wages. Maybe there is the odd bogan, but as a class, they are not the biggest percentage. Perhaps we could talk about some of the bogan "professional" pilots that get angry when you find a fault on an aircraft (that has obviously been there for some time) and the bogan winge's that
"I wont get back on time, I'm prepared to say it was alright when I left here". No sonny, book a hotel for the night. GRumble grumble winge winge..... words like useless engineers heard, dispite the fact that it is their ar#e that we may be saving along with some of the aformentioned passengers. Fact is there are good and bad in every situation, but generally pax are ok if treated with some respect.

[kotoyebe]

One of the reasons she (and numerous others) pay premium fares with a ‘full service’ airline is to have the flexibility of making changes at the last minute. This is how business customers operate.

Has it ever occurred to all those "very important business men/women" that even full service airlines charging premium fares can sometimes have multiple flights full? And that sometimes the airlines can't bow to every whim of the VIB instantaneously?

Sure, QF builds padding into the schedule so that it can charge those fares for people to change easily, but sometimes sh*t happens. That's how (the airline) business operates.

[Arnold E]

Kotoebe
Hicksville Alabama, sounds about right

[Eastwest Loco]

You are never going to please all of the people all of the time - however - Mrs Loco (who works for Autorent Hertz here in DPO) was awaiting QF2057 yesterday 11 July with 2 inbound rentals.

WX was atrrocious with a screaming Northerly and very poor vis.

The groundies did their best to keep passengers updated, but were getting no info from anyone within QF.

The Dash diverted to LST and the first they knew about it was when one of the passengers texted the person waiting for them in DPO.

This is a poor performance from Ops. Possibly even the crew who no doubt had their hands full, but a quick squawk on company frequency would have at least allowed for some more planning.

Maybe the QF frontliners at PER would have benefited from being kept in the loop too. That may have stopped or lessened some of the bogan meltdown.

Too much updating and relaying of news and updates is never enough.

They need to know the situation and that in itself informs them that someone has remembered their plight.

Maybe there are just not enough staff left to do this.

Best all

EWL

[argus.moon]

QF Ops Dispersal of Information

In a word---its zero
No communication with Groundstaff
No communication with Pilots
No communication with Cabin Crew.
In short they communicate with no one.
They sit in poorly lit cubicles like groundhogs.
For them the world outside does not exist .
AJ has a big job to change the silo culture where nobody shares nuthin' with no one

[Wonderworld]

In a word---its zero
No communication with Groundstaff
No communication with Pilots
No communication with Cabin Crew.
In short they communicate with no one.
They sit in poorly lit cubicles like groundhogs.
For them the world outside does not exist .
AJ has a big job to change the silo culture where nobody shares nuthin' with no one

No they dont. It's very open plan with bright lighting

[ZEEBEE]

With apologies to the "Wizard of Id' (no, not you Darren)


Ground staff
Sire, Sire ...the passengers are revolting!!!

Skipper.
They sure are,

[Captain.Que]

Perth ground staff lash Qantas inaction



Steve Creedy, Aviation writer | July 17, 2009

QANTAS has come under attack for failing to support staff left to deal with angry passengers delayed by a lightning strike in Perth last week.
The Australian Services Union says staff are still furious they were left without enough up-to-date information to pass on to passengers stranded when an Airbus A330 was struck by lightning on approach to Perth airport last Friday.
The aircraft, which was due to operate the red-eye service to Melbourne early last Friday, was initially grounded for an inspection but was further delayed when the strike proved more serious than first thought.
Passengers became increasingly angry because they were not being told what was happening and staff were forced to radio for police help when the situation turned ugly.
The union says staff were left exposed, powerless and intimidated by angry people and it was just a matter of good luck that there was no physical violence.
This view was disputed by Qantas, which said it believed staff were supported on the night by duty managers and operations staff.
The airline said it had established an informal working group to investigate the incident and it was confident it could address some of the issues arising from the event.
"With the benefit of hindsight, we're implementing a review because we think we can actually implement some structures to prevent situations unfolding as they did," spokesman David Epstein said.
But ASU assistant branch secretary Pat Branson said her members were angry that they were continually forced to bear the brunt of customer anger about problems at Perth only to watch the airline do nothing about it.
She said the latest incident was the straw that broke the camel's back. The union took the unusual move of publishing the Perth manager's phone number and urging customers to ring him personally to complain.
"Staff are still angry about it and the sad thing from their point of view is that it comes on top of a lot of stuff in Perth where Qantas is not taking any notice of what's happening on the ground," she said.
"They are furious."
Perth airport has been a thorn in Qantas's side and a source of consumer complaints for years.
Two years ago, the airline announced it would spend $50 million on its terminal to ease unpleasant congestion during peak periods, including the installation of QuickCheck kiosks, new security screening, an expansion to the departure lounge and a boost to its baggage systems.
But Ms Branson said passengers were still miffed that not enough had been done to solve problems at Perth and the facility was still subject to constant queues.
"It's a mess," she said. "The facilities at the Perth domestic airport are the worst I've seen in Australia and they are more crowded."
ASU assistant national secretary Linda White said the incident highlighted continuing problems at airports with staff safety and the fact management had no plans to handle violence at terminals, even after this year's brawl at Sydney airport, which resulted in one man's death.
Ms White said the company had mishandled the Perth incident by leaving customer service staff to cop the brunt of it.
"They were supposed to be calm and keep the peace, but its pretty damn difficult when you've got no information coming through from anybody," she said.
She also described the airline's failure to publicly defend its staff as appalling.
"All we get is lame duck excuses basically," she said. "They don't really care; it's acceptable risk."
Mr Epstein acknowledged some staff were angry but said the airline's discussions indicated they were most upset by the presence of electronic media during the event.
He said the airline was moving to address this and would also look at having earlier trigger points for action at Perth.

[Bad Hat Harry]

Whirpool Airlines aka Qantas

Always in the Spin Cycle.
Why dont they just tell the truth?
Blind Freddy can see the truth .Perhaps they (management)are so far removed from the coal face they cant see it

[the wizard of auz]

Hehe.... No worries Z.

[Flokkered]

YPPH

What a joke.
Today pax lined up all the way to the baggage carousel due to speaking with the poor check in staff they only had half of the check in booths open due to staff NOT turning up to work on time?!!! Is there some PIA action by check in staff going on that we don't know about yet?! I understand YPPH is a crap second rate attempt at an airport but jees c'mon Q at least have the check in counters manned on your busiest days for god sake!!

Flok

[packrat]

Answer to Flokkered

Qantas is cost focused not customer focused.
Staffing levels at all QF Australian airports are 20% below what is required.
Qantas :We care about your money but we dont care about you