PAX get angry at YPPH
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I am certain everyone at QF in Perth and elsewhere did their level best to sort the situation in the best way possible and as quickly as they could. It goes without saying good people really try to do the right thing even though events might be compounding around them.
Teresa Green and Tipsy2 referred to the “me me me” passengers . . . and Teresa Green said they were only paying $29. Maybe you are right in terms of the fare Teresa Green . . . but QF does present itself as a ‘full service’ airline which carries with it a number of assumptions. I would agree with you both if they were flying on a ‘low cost carrier’ . . . but QF is definitely not one of those.
There have been several recent threads in this forum focussing on the relative merits of ‘full service’ and ‘low cost’ airlines. While many ‘full service’ airlines recover very well from unexpected situations every day because of fleet flexibility, it is stories like the one in Perth that get the headlines.
The net effect is that customers and readers are left wondering why they don’t just buy a really cheap fare and run the risk of a messy disruption.
Another example - my frequent ‘premium flyer’ wife always buys fully flexible (ie expensive) fares so she can change flights at the last minute. This was not possible on QF yesterday . . . she was booked on a 4:30pm flight from Sydney to Melbourne and arrived at the airport at 2:15pm (not rush hour). There were no seats on any earlier flights (any class) and her flight was slightly delayed (20 minutes).
Given our recent positive experience with Tiger, she walked in the door muttering something about why is she paying for flexibility when she could have paid $39 instead.
I understand there was probably a good reason for the backlog in Sydney (cancelled flight or some such thing) and the people involved almost certainly worked their butts off trying to get the passengers away. And I agree that most of the time flights can be changed at late notice.
But there does seem to be an emerging theme of airline customers asking value for money questions . . . my wife joined the queue yesterday.
I hasten to add that an example of one proves nothing . . . and maybe yesterday was an aberration for QF in Perth and Sydney. But the Perth passengers and their families (and many readers of the newspapers) may well be asking the same questions.
Food for thought.
Cheers
Pedota
Teresa Green and Tipsy2 referred to the “me me me” passengers . . . and Teresa Green said they were only paying $29. Maybe you are right in terms of the fare Teresa Green . . . but QF does present itself as a ‘full service’ airline which carries with it a number of assumptions. I would agree with you both if they were flying on a ‘low cost carrier’ . . . but QF is definitely not one of those.
There have been several recent threads in this forum focussing on the relative merits of ‘full service’ and ‘low cost’ airlines. While many ‘full service’ airlines recover very well from unexpected situations every day because of fleet flexibility, it is stories like the one in Perth that get the headlines.
The net effect is that customers and readers are left wondering why they don’t just buy a really cheap fare and run the risk of a messy disruption.
Another example - my frequent ‘premium flyer’ wife always buys fully flexible (ie expensive) fares so she can change flights at the last minute. This was not possible on QF yesterday . . . she was booked on a 4:30pm flight from Sydney to Melbourne and arrived at the airport at 2:15pm (not rush hour). There were no seats on any earlier flights (any class) and her flight was slightly delayed (20 minutes).
Given our recent positive experience with Tiger, she walked in the door muttering something about why is she paying for flexibility when she could have paid $39 instead.
I understand there was probably a good reason for the backlog in Sydney (cancelled flight or some such thing) and the people involved almost certainly worked their butts off trying to get the passengers away. And I agree that most of the time flights can be changed at late notice.
But there does seem to be an emerging theme of airline customers asking value for money questions . . . my wife joined the queue yesterday.
I hasten to add that an example of one proves nothing . . . and maybe yesterday was an aberration for QF in Perth and Sydney. But the Perth passengers and their families (and many readers of the newspapers) may well be asking the same questions.
Food for thought.
Cheers
Pedota
Last edited by Pedota; 10th Jul 2009 at 11:33. Reason: Incompetence
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Diving duck, after 49 years in the business, and having been stranded in airports all over the world for various reasons, more often than not with little info, and the same thing happening when I was working at the sharp end, with sudden engineering problems, never once have I heard the Wallopers had to be called because of the behaviour of the boarding PAX. Sh$t happens, the engineers did their best to get her airborne, but could not, being PER there was no available A/C to do the job, being the red eye makes it even worse, but it happened when TAA and Ansett did the work on more than one occasion, but abusing the ground staff was not a option, and not considered by most PAX, but then, people had manners, they were disapointed yes, probably angry as well, but very seldom abusive, and simply accepted the situation as it was. As I said, just another example of society breakdown and no, it was not tongue in cheek.
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Diving Duck, happens all around the world every day, angry pax, WX problems, engineering problems, you have been there, so have I, on many occasions, and with 35 years with TAA let me assure you, there were many times the Red Eye did not get away. Yes the PAX waited hopefully in the terminal, so did we, were they angry and tired, yes, did they abuse the ground staff, no, did we have ever have to call the Wallopers because of PAX behaviour, unthinkable, thats the difference, people had manners then, they don't now, they seem incapable of thinking beyond their own needs. The engineers did their best, but could not in all honesty sign the A/C out, being PER, you cannot drag one out of the hangar, or have a crew rearing to go, sh%t happens, far better to be a day late, then part of a smoking black hole,try telling that to these idiots whose abuse was so bad that the cops were called, as I said, just another example of society breakdown.
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teresa and tipsy
I've done a lot of flying with Qantas (thankfully I haven't had to travel much for work in the last 10 years), and as SLF I can tell you that I get REALLY PISSED OFF when treated like a mushroom and told nothing. I must say that I don't approve of people abusing ground staff, but I can understand that being kept in the dark from midnight to 6:30 am (if previous comments in this thread are correct) would make anyone, including myself, angry. Remember, these are paying passengers here. There are many times when I have been sitting in departure "lounge" waiting to board and the inbound aircraft hasn't arrived - it's obvious that the departure will be delayed, but no announcement is made. Why not ? Maybe you don't understand what a difference a bit of information makes. On the other hand, I boarded a 747 in Kai Tak (a long time ago now !), and the captain came on and announced IMMEDIATELY that there was a problem with an engine warning light. He explained that it would be quicker to hold us all on the aircraft rather than unload/reload while the problem was looked at. In the end it took an hour and a half to fix the problem, and we received several updates on what was happening while we sat there. Everyone (well, everyone I was talking to nearby) was quite happy to sit there because we had been TOLD what was going on. It seems to me that the ground staff are much less informative than flight crew. Is that because the flight crew are "empowered" (I was going to say have more balls, but that would be PIC) ? Or are the poor ground staff kept in the dark just like the pax ?
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but QF does present itself as a ‘full service’ airline which carries with it a number of assumptions
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Perdota, I don't know anything about 29 dollars, I did not mention it. My daughter was booked on that A/C. She works in the industry, never has she seen such abuse in a airport ever. The more the ground staff tried to tell them about the delay the more abusive and violent they became, as the night went on, it became worse, especially as some bogans had hidden grog (how the hell did they get that thru security)? it became a frightening situation, with some women choosing to stay in the toilet area, now I defy any of you to tell me that is ok? It is of great concern to all of you who work in the industry, if that is going to be acceptable behaviour everytime a A/C breaks down in the future, if it is, God help us all.
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With the greatest respect to you Teresa Green, I stand corrected . . . it was Tipsy2 who said:
“Me, me, me, me, that seems to be all we ever hear from passengers expecting a champagne service but only want to pay $29 or so”.
Your latter post did support this sentiment – but not the $29 fare.
And by the way, it is Pedota and not Perdota – mythology will reveal a significant difference, although I thank you for the Shakespearian reference.
Kindest regards
Pedota
“Me, me, me, me, that seems to be all we ever hear from passengers expecting a champagne service but only want to pay $29 or so”.
Your latter post did support this sentiment – but not the $29 fare.
And by the way, it is Pedota and not Perdota – mythology will reveal a significant difference, although I thank you for the Shakespearian reference.
Kindest regards
Pedota
Thread Starter
What sort of nongs are running Q? Clearly they need some training in the appreciation process that would have led them to the decision that no one had the balls to make hours earlier.
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Unfortunately, there was a lot more going on last night (I assume as the post was made this morning-Friday) that you are discussing events on Thursday night/Friday early am.
I don't know what effect it might have had on this situation, but from about 8pm to midnight Syd/Mel time, brown things hit the whirly things in Sydney and an ATC shutdown/restriction put the kybosh on most flights to and from. So as of this morning both QF and DJ (as well as the others) had numerous crews & aircraft sitting on tarmacs when they were meant to be elsewhere. I would guess getting things back on track on the east coast meant there was nothing extra to be sent west.
Of course the pax are understandably frustrated; there were many in Melbourne who were told a flight was going ahead with exemption from the curfew, only to be told right before departure that the flight was canned. But I did not see any unruly behaviour, only people lining up at the desk to get their hotel vouchers.
What it is about delays in Perth that turn people into chimps? I know it's not everyone but even in the last few months, I've seen some appalling behaviour towards the airport staff. Sometimes the ground staff have nothing to tell. I've seen them heckled for making announcements along the lines of 'we have no new information, boarding is still expected at xx o'clock" Cue swearing & name calling from pax.
It makes me ashamed to be from Perth sometimes! Teresa is right, people never used to act like this. While airlines hold some responsibility for the way they manage delays, pax need to realise they are responsible for their own reactions, and it is NOT an excuse to act like animals.
I don't know what effect it might have had on this situation, but from about 8pm to midnight Syd/Mel time, brown things hit the whirly things in Sydney and an ATC shutdown/restriction put the kybosh on most flights to and from. So as of this morning both QF and DJ (as well as the others) had numerous crews & aircraft sitting on tarmacs when they were meant to be elsewhere. I would guess getting things back on track on the east coast meant there was nothing extra to be sent west.
Of course the pax are understandably frustrated; there were many in Melbourne who were told a flight was going ahead with exemption from the curfew, only to be told right before departure that the flight was canned. But I did not see any unruly behaviour, only people lining up at the desk to get their hotel vouchers.
What it is about delays in Perth that turn people into chimps? I know it's not everyone but even in the last few months, I've seen some appalling behaviour towards the airport staff. Sometimes the ground staff have nothing to tell. I've seen them heckled for making announcements along the lines of 'we have no new information, boarding is still expected at xx o'clock" Cue swearing & name calling from pax.
It makes me ashamed to be from Perth sometimes! Teresa is right, people never used to act like this. While airlines hold some responsibility for the way they manage delays, pax need to realise they are responsible for their own reactions, and it is NOT an excuse to act like animals.
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Its discusting how the passengers think they have the right to abuse the ground staff/flight attendants...Would I come into your workplace and start abusing you? As far as I am concerned I dont get paid enough to put up with that crap.
And as for the complaining passenger questioning why he flew qf anyway? You would be the first to look upon the crew for help if something were to happen!
And as for the complaining passenger questioning why he flew qf anyway? You would be the first to look upon the crew for help if something were to happen!
Thread Starter
Its discusting how the passengers think they have the right to abuse the ground staff/flight attendants
I agree with that. Catching an aircraft today is like catching a bus. The fares are simular as is the leg room and inflight entertainment (nil) on LCC"s and not much better on Qantas. The food no better than a Roadhouse stop,and often worse.
So what do you expect will happen when passengers get tired and grumpy.
Not saying it is right,but that's how it is I'm afraid.
So what do you expect will happen when passengers get tired and grumpy.
Not saying it is right,but that's how it is I'm afraid.
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It seems that some are missing the point here when they infer that QF didn't have the balls to make the call.
From what I read here it seems that the engineers braved the conditions and completed the lighning strike inspections, BUT THE AIRCRAFT WAS DAMAGED BEYOND LIMITS.
Nobody can make the call beyond how long the inspection is going to take, when it is complete then you can make a call on the rectification time.
See the text below.
From what I read here it seems that the engineers braved the conditions and completed the lighning strike inspections, BUT THE AIRCRAFT WAS DAMAGED BEYOND LIMITS.
Nobody can make the call beyond how long the inspection is going to take, when it is complete then you can make a call on the rectification time.
See the text below.
Inital rescheduled departure time time was 0330hrs local time. QANTAS Engineers completed post lightning strike inspections, tests and damage assessment at approximately 0400hrs.
Damage was determined beyond serviceable limits in consultation with structural engineers in Sydney at 0430hrs. Flight cancelled...
I take my hat off to the engineers out in the elements last night endeavoring to ensure a safe departure, and minimise schedule interruption.. You can't win them all fella's...
Damage was determined beyond serviceable limits in consultation with structural engineers in Sydney at 0430hrs. Flight cancelled...
I take my hat off to the engineers out in the elements last night endeavoring to ensure a safe departure, and minimise schedule interruption.. You can't win them all fella's...
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Couldn't agree more but that is the result of cheap airfares. It allows the lower classes and socially inept to move about more frequently.
It doesnt matter why the a/c went tech. Pax have the right to be told truthfully what delays to expect.
We are relying on press reports and second hand statements.....
Another example - my frequent ‘premium flyer’ wife always buys fully flexible (ie expensive) fares so she can change flights at the last minute. This was not possible on QF yesterday . . . she was booked on a 4:30pm flight from Sydney to Melbourne and arrived at the airport at 2:15pm (not rush hour). There were no seats on any earlier flights (any class) and her flight was slightly delayed (20 minutes).
Given our recent positive experience with Tiger, she walked in the door muttering something about why is she paying for flexibility when she could have paid $39 instead.
Given our recent positive experience with Tiger, she walked in the door muttering something about why is she paying for flexibility when she could have paid $39 instead.
It's amazing how many people think that operating an airline is like running a car pool service....
They think that if the tyres are OK and the engine starts then off you go....No problems...why should aircraft be any different....
The main issue here is not that the aircraft was damaged by lightning and subsequently delayed and I'm sure that the engineers did their best...but were the lines of communication kept open....
If you let people know what is happening then most problems are stopped before they get out of hand.
The other issue is that the way the company is run.Managers are scared to make decisions lest they are held accountable....look at what has just happened to a certain ex manager in the US....
If you are too busy looking over your shoulder when you call the shots then you won't be making the best decisions.....
Last edited by lowerlobe; 10th Jul 2009 at 22:48.
Managers Perspective
If you are a QF manager, then god 'elp Q. Whilst it is true that the length of time for the inspection and its outcome could not be predicted accurately, this does not mean that contingency planning cannot be started until the outcome is known. within a few minutes of the aircraft going u/s other arrangements should have already been planned and that plan activated. In other words, by 04:31 everybody should have known what was happening
If you are a QF manager, then god 'elp Q. Whilst it is true that the length of time for the inspection and its outcome could not be predicted accurately, this does not mean that contingency planning cannot be started until the outcome is known. within a few minutes of the aircraft going u/s other arrangements should have already been planned and that plan activated. In other words, by 04:31 everybody should have known what was happening
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Qantas Crew :"We're sorry for this delay, we needed to return to the gate for technical reasons, we will advise more details shortly."
Me" Hmmmmmmm......I am guessing a Qantas moment is coming"
Qantas Captain "Ladies and Gents, we have had a brake problem on the taxi to the runway and we expect to have it fixed an be underway shortly"
30 minutes later...
Qantas Captain "Ladies and Gents we now expect to be delayed further and we will actually be changing the brake assembly"
Me, to my surrounding passengers " We will not be flying tonight, it is a matter of time before we unload and go to the hotel"
Passenger's reply "But they just said we will be getting underway"
Me, "No we won't, no chance, curfew, parts etc"
45 minutes later.
Qantas Crew. " unfortunately we are going to have to disembark, you will be advised further by ground staff"
24 hours later another aircraft arrived to pick us up.
My point is, why, why, why do Qantas staff mislead passengers?
One factor I notice is, if they can delay facing the passengers until the next shift takes over they'll do it every time!
Me" Hmmmmmmm......I am guessing a Qantas moment is coming"
Qantas Captain "Ladies and Gents, we have had a brake problem on the taxi to the runway and we expect to have it fixed an be underway shortly"
30 minutes later...
Qantas Captain "Ladies and Gents we now expect to be delayed further and we will actually be changing the brake assembly"
Me, to my surrounding passengers " We will not be flying tonight, it is a matter of time before we unload and go to the hotel"
Passenger's reply "But they just said we will be getting underway"
Me, "No we won't, no chance, curfew, parts etc"
45 minutes later.
Qantas Crew. " unfortunately we are going to have to disembark, you will be advised further by ground staff"
24 hours later another aircraft arrived to pick us up.
My point is, why, why, why do Qantas staff mislead passengers?
One factor I notice is, if they can delay facing the passengers until the next shift takes over they'll do it every time!
Bottums Up
In my experience to date. 
I can only recall once that this time estimation method didn't hold true , only last week as it happens, when the engineer said 1 hour, and we were ready in just over 30 mins.
It is my perception, that ground staff set them selves up for a headache by trying to sugar coat the sad facts. In their support however, if they say, it'll be 2 hours and the aircraft is subsequently ready in half the time, many of the pax are missing because they find something useful to do with two hours.
Human nature I guess.
- Aircraft breaks, I ask engineer how long do you think?
- Engineer says y mins/hours, I double this and advise ground staff.
- Ground staff say, "I can't tell them that, I'll tell them half an hour and we'll see what happens".
- Half an hour later ground staff says, "is it fixed, are you ready to go".
- I say, "no, I told you (2 x y) mins/hours". Ground staff then lament, "but I've told them half an hour and they're all getting antsy".
I can only recall once that this time estimation method didn't hold true , only last week as it happens, when the engineer said 1 hour, and we were ready in just over 30 mins.
It is my perception, that ground staff set them selves up for a headache by trying to sugar coat the sad facts. In their support however, if they say, it'll be 2 hours and the aircraft is subsequently ready in half the time, many of the pax are missing because they find something useful to do with two hours.
Human nature I guess.