Jetstar does it again!
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If passengers want a spare aircraft and crew on airport standby at every port they will have to pay a damned sight more than $50 for their ticket.
There are so many external influences we have no control over in aviation that other transport industries don’t have to worry about. (Weather, security, airport congestion, missing passengers, crewing issues, etc, etc, etc).
I think that most front line airline employees in Aust deserve a pat on the back for the reliability and on-time performance that they provide in such a difficult environment. So many people are doing such a good job to provide such a cheap, safe and reliable service to the traveling public with what they have to work with.
I would personally MUCH prefer to see fares increased, with better equipment, conditions and customer service – but this is what the traveling public has asked for. If they don’t like it, they should pay the extra to travel with and support a full service airline or soon enough they will be extinct or offer little to no service too. Q aren’t giving routes to J* for the fun of it.
I say well done to those involved in getting everyone to where they needed to be under the difficult circumstances.
There are so many external influences we have no control over in aviation that other transport industries don’t have to worry about. (Weather, security, airport congestion, missing passengers, crewing issues, etc, etc, etc).
I think that most front line airline employees in Aust deserve a pat on the back for the reliability and on-time performance that they provide in such a difficult environment. So many people are doing such a good job to provide such a cheap, safe and reliable service to the traveling public with what they have to work with.
I would personally MUCH prefer to see fares increased, with better equipment, conditions and customer service – but this is what the traveling public has asked for. If they don’t like it, they should pay the extra to travel with and support a full service airline or soon enough they will be extinct or offer little to no service too. Q aren’t giving routes to J* for the fun of it.
I say well done to those involved in getting everyone to where they needed to be under the difficult circumstances.
Last edited by patienceboy; 18th Jun 2009 at 08:09.
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ACC,
IIRC Airservices Australia is responsible for providing and upgrading navaids and ILS, not the individual airports. Some airports are responsible for airfield lighting.
Airservices Australia - Projects & Services - Services & Facilities - Airside Systems and Facilities
IIRC Airservices Australia is responsible for providing and upgrading navaids and ILS, not the individual airports. Some airports are responsible for airfield lighting.
Airservices Australia - Projects & Services - Services & Facilities - Airside Systems and Facilities
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You fly LCC you take the risk of a run around thats all there is to it. There is a chance of cancellations and all sorts of other things.
You don't get something for nothing. Its cheap for a reason. The resources are less and that comes at cost sometimes.
For me personally I wouldn't fly with either Tiger or Jetstar as its just all too hard with all the hidden costs, run arounds, games and carry on. I want to go from A to B I'll pay the extra money over at QF or VB to avoid the bull****.
In this country we make excuses for substandard infrastucture and pathetic service. We happily sit and cop it on the chin when 50 cents in the dollar is lifted from our pay and get nothing in return.
What is the reality?
Sydney:
Major International Airport
Population 4 million
CAT 1 ILS.
Come on. People are flying in from all over the world 10-16 hrs and we have a DH of 200 and 0.8k. Get real.
Spot on, its like living in Africa sometimes.
You don't get something for nothing. Its cheap for a reason. The resources are less and that comes at cost sometimes.
For me personally I wouldn't fly with either Tiger or Jetstar as its just all too hard with all the hidden costs, run arounds, games and carry on. I want to go from A to B I'll pay the extra money over at QF or VB to avoid the bull****.
1-2 days a year.
What is the reality?
Sydney:
Major International Airport
Population 4 million
CAT 1 ILS.
Come on. People are flying in from all over the world 10-16 hrs and we have a DH of 200 and 0.8k. Get real.
This really is a 3rd world situation
It was only about 12 months ago that QF had a classic take 13 hours to go from YPPH-YMML via YPAD due fog in Melbourne. These events can happen to any one. Maybe we need to start a longest journey/ least direct routing thread(keep it clean) as opposed to the nothing unusual happened today thread.
Clark y.
Clark y.
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It seems to me that a real first world country would have introduced a high speed train between capitals on the east coast, making these city hopping airlines irrelevant.
As a matter of interest I'd love to know how far a high speed train could get from Syd to Mel in the time it takes for a jet to push back, get a word in edgewise, get a clearance, taxy to 34R, wait for a 50 mile gap between landing aircraft, take off and procede to fly half way to wellington at 5000' on the Marub 3.
As a matter of interest I'd love to know how far a high speed train could get from Syd to Mel in the time it takes for a jet to push back, get a word in edgewise, get a clearance, taxy to 34R, wait for a 50 mile gap between landing aircraft, take off and procede to fly half way to wellington at 5000' on the Marub 3.
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We don't want to know the answer to that question.
All the aviation ring-ins to our have added so many layers of bull**** to our job that it simply couldn't compete over a short distance.
All the aviation ring-ins to our have added so many layers of bull**** to our job that it simply couldn't compete over a short distance.
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My wife and I are long term and frequent QF customers. My FF number is so low that QF staff still comment about it and my wife retains her ‘gold’ status.
Last week we needed to go to Perth and we chose Tiger based entirely on price - less than $400 total (not each). It even wasn’t worth using points at that price.
A sample of one does not make a case about anything, but I think the industry’s business model is in the process of changing forever.
And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.
There was a minor delay on one sector but the staff provided accurate and timely information – we were all kept in the picture and they worked double speed to turn the aircraft around in minimal time.
We took our own food . . . but frankly airline food is rarely worth eating at any time. And of course our Qantas Club cards were left unused.
We have used airlines like Ryan Air and EasyJet in the UK and Europe and have been very pleased. Sure, you get the occasional delay – but you also get those on High Cost Carriers.
I will select the lowest fare that fits my schedule . . . pretty much like anything else that I buy . . . as there seems little point in paying more for essentially the same thing.
Cheers
Pedota
Last week we needed to go to Perth and we chose Tiger based entirely on price - less than $400 total (not each). It even wasn’t worth using points at that price.
A sample of one does not make a case about anything, but I think the industry’s business model is in the process of changing forever.
And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.
There was a minor delay on one sector but the staff provided accurate and timely information – we were all kept in the picture and they worked double speed to turn the aircraft around in minimal time.
We took our own food . . . but frankly airline food is rarely worth eating at any time. And of course our Qantas Club cards were left unused.
We have used airlines like Ryan Air and EasyJet in the UK and Europe and have been very pleased. Sure, you get the occasional delay – but you also get those on High Cost Carriers.
I will select the lowest fare that fits my schedule . . . pretty much like anything else that I buy . . . as there seems little point in paying more for essentially the same thing.
Cheers
Pedota
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Pedota, much of what you say is valid, however, perhaps there are some other things that lurk beneath the surface in the LCC vs Full Service argument.
Things that I believe many people will find optional, and are prepared to do without or purchase as an add-on.
* Food
* Beverages
* Baggage allowance
* Longer checking times
The dark underbelly appears when things don't always go as planned, these pages are detail some of the LCC model weaknesses:
* Fine print
* Delay handling & rebooking
* No spare aircraft capacity to cover WX/mechanical delays.
* lack of overnight accommodation in case of WX diversions (Being tossed out of the terminal at 11pm in Sydney without accommodation)
* Baggage allowance policy, being slammed at check-in for mega $$ for additional baggage above allowance, see fine print.
* Inflexibility for missed flight, change travel times.
* Flights cancelled & being rebooked on alternative dates & times that often negate the reason to travel (special events short trips)
LCC's derive much of the cost control from a much smaller, rigid business model, revolving around maximising aircraft utilization, maximising revenue from pax mistakes/inability to read fine print. Further, time sensitivity is not an issue. The pax bears more risk, in return for a lower price.
That is not to say that there is no place for the LCC model, it is a question of trading cost for flexibility & bearing risk. The downside of the Full Service model is price, it is a more complex business.
I wonder if you would have had the same comment had you missed a special event or short prepaid holiday due to some of the LCC model limitations?
Things that I believe many people will find optional, and are prepared to do without or purchase as an add-on.
* Food
* Beverages
* Baggage allowance
* Longer checking times
The dark underbelly appears when things don't always go as planned, these pages are detail some of the LCC model weaknesses:
* Fine print
* Delay handling & rebooking
* No spare aircraft capacity to cover WX/mechanical delays.
* lack of overnight accommodation in case of WX diversions (Being tossed out of the terminal at 11pm in Sydney without accommodation)
* Baggage allowance policy, being slammed at check-in for mega $$ for additional baggage above allowance, see fine print.
* Inflexibility for missed flight, change travel times.
* Flights cancelled & being rebooked on alternative dates & times that often negate the reason to travel (special events short trips)
LCC's derive much of the cost control from a much smaller, rigid business model, revolving around maximising aircraft utilization, maximising revenue from pax mistakes/inability to read fine print. Further, time sensitivity is not an issue. The pax bears more risk, in return for a lower price.
That is not to say that there is no place for the LCC model, it is a question of trading cost for flexibility & bearing risk. The downside of the Full Service model is price, it is a more complex business.
I wonder if you would have had the same comment had you missed a special event or short prepaid holiday due to some of the LCC model limitations?
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cost of a CAT III ILS would be vs the economic impact
I think the high speed train will get here first though!
LCC - the hidden fine print and the way things go when things don't go to plan.
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Breakfastburrito, don't forget the fact that some LCC's even have pilots paying to be upfront or flying for free. All in the name of low hour pilots gaining some experience (and the airline saving a few dollars.)
Accidents do happen as a result of poor training/cultures, just look at what happened to a Turkish Airlines 737 recently.
There is more to low fares than just missing out on a free sandwich.
Accidents do happen as a result of poor training/cultures, just look at what happened to a Turkish Airlines 737 recently.
There is more to low fares than just missing out on a free sandwich.
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And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.
Don Esson - see the article below from ETravelBlackboard NZ
Jetstar accused of exploiting pilots
Friday, 12 June 2009
Cheap labour and threatening individual agreements are rumoured to be the secrets of Jetstar’s success.
New Zealand’s stuff.co reported on Thursday that the New Zealand Air Line Pilots' Association (NZALPA) said the carrier had been trimming its labour costs and employing international pilots willing to work on less pay and worse conditions.
"Jetstar is looking to recruit pilots from overseas who are prepared to come here and work as jet pilots on salaries tens of thousands of dollars lower than current market rates” said NZALPA executive director Rick Mirkin
Jetstar denied the accusations with spokesman Simon Westaway saying that the carrier paid a New Zealand-based captain operating domestic flights $170,000 annually.
"Why would over 500 people be flying aircraft in our organisation if they didn't think it was a good organisation to work for? That's a question we would pose back,"
However, Mirkin said 19 Christchurch pilots had been threatened by Jetstar to either relocate their families to Auckland or “go down the road".
Pilots were also required to buy their own uniforms, pay for navigation charts and only allowed Airbus flight training if they took a pay cut.
Jetstar launched services between Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Queenstown on Tuesday.
Friday, 12 June 2009
Cheap labour and threatening individual agreements are rumoured to be the secrets of Jetstar’s success.
New Zealand’s stuff.co reported on Thursday that the New Zealand Air Line Pilots' Association (NZALPA) said the carrier had been trimming its labour costs and employing international pilots willing to work on less pay and worse conditions.
"Jetstar is looking to recruit pilots from overseas who are prepared to come here and work as jet pilots on salaries tens of thousands of dollars lower than current market rates” said NZALPA executive director Rick Mirkin
Jetstar denied the accusations with spokesman Simon Westaway saying that the carrier paid a New Zealand-based captain operating domestic flights $170,000 annually.
"Why would over 500 people be flying aircraft in our organisation if they didn't think it was a good organisation to work for? That's a question we would pose back,"
However, Mirkin said 19 Christchurch pilots had been threatened by Jetstar to either relocate their families to Auckland or “go down the road".
Pilots were also required to buy their own uniforms, pay for navigation charts and only allowed Airbus flight training if they took a pay cut.
Jetstar launched services between Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Queenstown on Tuesday.
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Mstr C,
While I do not hold any brief for Jetstar, I do say what they are doing in NZ is hardly asking people to pay to fly or to fly for nothing.
-438 should put up or shut up!
While I do not hold any brief for Jetstar, I do say what they are doing in NZ is hardly asking people to pay to fly or to fly for nothing.
-438 should put up or shut up!
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I'm not sure how to link another thread, this is the best I can do.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ok-airbus.html
However the practice of low experience pilots paying to fly for airlines is not new.
It's just that the public generally have no idea about it.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3...ok-airbus.html
However the practice of low experience pilots paying to fly for airlines is not new.
It's just that the public generally have no idea about it.
Quote:
And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.
Pedota - As a passenger, how did you determine the airmanship part?
And I can report that the whole Tiger customer ‘experience’ was fine . . . easy to use internet ticket purchase; capable and helpful check in staff; brand new A320; hard working and competent cabin crew; great flying and airmanship; and quick baggage retrieval.
Pedota - As a passenger, how did you determine the airmanship part?
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Mstr Caution & Green Goblin
You’re both right . . . and I withdraw that part of my post.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
What I did see was things like smooth and positive manoeuvring of the aircraft on the ground and in the air, considerate use of ground/landing lights when in the vicinity of other aircraft, concerted efforts to get out of areas of ‘light chop’ over the Great Australian Bight and fast and smooth descents . . . and brilliant landings (but they’re mostly chance, right?).
I also noticed that the PA announcements from the cockpit didn’t prattle on . . . brief, factual and accurate information was conveyed to the passengers. Interestingly they didn't even say their names.
But you are still both right and I still withdraw – I wasn’t in the cockpit.
And for your information I am going to Canberra with Tiger for $25 and back for $38 over the next days. Maybe you are right Breakfastburrito and there will be a stuff up which will make me change my mind?
Cheers
Pedota
You’re both right . . . and I withdraw that part of my post.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
What I did see was things like smooth and positive manoeuvring of the aircraft on the ground and in the air, considerate use of ground/landing lights when in the vicinity of other aircraft, concerted efforts to get out of areas of ‘light chop’ over the Great Australian Bight and fast and smooth descents . . . and brilliant landings (but they’re mostly chance, right?).
I also noticed that the PA announcements from the cockpit didn’t prattle on . . . brief, factual and accurate information was conveyed to the passengers. Interestingly they didn't even say their names.
But you are still both right and I still withdraw – I wasn’t in the cockpit.
And for your information I am going to Canberra with Tiger for $25 and back for $38 over the next days. Maybe you are right Breakfastburrito and there will be a stuff up which will make me change my mind?
Cheers
Pedota
Last edited by Pedota; 23rd Jun 2009 at 23:16. Reason: Incompetence
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Pedota - You observed a hell of alot more than the average punter did or would on the day.
By all accounts professionalism was clearly evident & without being in the flight deck, all indications are/where that the airmanship was more than likely commensurate with the level of professionalism displayed.
MC
By all accounts professionalism was clearly evident & without being in the flight deck, all indications are/where that the airmanship was more than likely commensurate with the level of professionalism displayed.
MC