Qantas and RAAF pool pilots
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Qantas and RAAF pool pilots
Qantas and RAAF pool pilots
By Charles Miranda
The Daily Telegraph
November 27, 2008 12:01am
THE cockpits of the nation's fighter planes and commercial Qantas aircraft will be staffed from a shared pool of pilots under an extraordinary plan to combat a desperate shortage of military manpower.
The Daily Telegraph can reveal the blueprint for the future of Australia's military as it seeks to establish a sharing of personnel to stop poaching.
Under arrangements being considered by the Federal Government, the pool of pilots would be able to travel freely back and forth between the public and private sectors.
The move is aimed at addressing a series of damning internal audits that showed Australia's fighter planes and pilots are not meeting basic air flight hours due to a lack of personnel both in the air and on the ground.
The audits reveal a similar shortfall with Navy ships and sailors.
"We've got to ask, in partnership with Qantas, whether we are getting maximum utilisation out of a limited number of people," Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said yesterday.
Speaking exclusively to The Daily Telegraph as he toured a military dock in Spain where the RAN's hybrid aircraft carrier is being built, Mr Fitzgibbon said Australia's population was too small to sustain public and private employment needs.
He said the as-yet-to-be-released defence White Paper, a review of the nation's strategic military outlook, would address shortcomings including creating a "better relationship" with the commercial sector.
"There are two aspects to that, one is optimising the workplace model so the defence force and commercial airlines are effectively sharing personnel, and the second is making it easier for pilots to transit easily backwards and forwards so they are looking at the greener pastures on the other side," Mr Fitzgibbon said.
A Qantas spokesman said last night its airline was currently training RAAF pilots, engineers and other crew on Qantas aircraft ahead of the military taking delivery of a multi airtanker aircraft since the controls were compatible.
"Qantas isn't aware of any other approach," the spokesman said, adding also the airline did not target RAAF pilots to poach.
Mr Fitzgibbon said: "We are no more than 20 million people and there's not much point investing billions of dollars in capability if we don't have the people to man and operate that capability."
It is understood the White Paper, charting the military future to 2030, gives reservists a more central role.
By Charles Miranda
The Daily Telegraph
November 27, 2008 12:01am
THE cockpits of the nation's fighter planes and commercial Qantas aircraft will be staffed from a shared pool of pilots under an extraordinary plan to combat a desperate shortage of military manpower.
The Daily Telegraph can reveal the blueprint for the future of Australia's military as it seeks to establish a sharing of personnel to stop poaching.
Under arrangements being considered by the Federal Government, the pool of pilots would be able to travel freely back and forth between the public and private sectors.
The move is aimed at addressing a series of damning internal audits that showed Australia's fighter planes and pilots are not meeting basic air flight hours due to a lack of personnel both in the air and on the ground.
The audits reveal a similar shortfall with Navy ships and sailors.
"We've got to ask, in partnership with Qantas, whether we are getting maximum utilisation out of a limited number of people," Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said yesterday.
Speaking exclusively to The Daily Telegraph as he toured a military dock in Spain where the RAN's hybrid aircraft carrier is being built, Mr Fitzgibbon said Australia's population was too small to sustain public and private employment needs.
He said the as-yet-to-be-released defence White Paper, a review of the nation's strategic military outlook, would address shortcomings including creating a "better relationship" with the commercial sector.
"There are two aspects to that, one is optimising the workplace model so the defence force and commercial airlines are effectively sharing personnel, and the second is making it easier for pilots to transit easily backwards and forwards so they are looking at the greener pastures on the other side," Mr Fitzgibbon said.
A Qantas spokesman said last night its airline was currently training RAAF pilots, engineers and other crew on Qantas aircraft ahead of the military taking delivery of a multi airtanker aircraft since the controls were compatible.
"Qantas isn't aware of any other approach," the spokesman said, adding also the airline did not target RAAF pilots to poach.
Mr Fitzgibbon said: "We are no more than 20 million people and there's not much point investing billions of dollars in capability if we don't have the people to man and operate that capability."
It is understood the White Paper, charting the military future to 2030, gives reservists a more central role.
Thread Starter
Haha, touche'
I still remember how to fly an aeroplane...I think.
I still remember how to fly an aeroplane...I think.
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I would think that the differing levels of pay/working conditions etc between the two would see the pool of pilots want to gravitate in one direction (or another)... would the whole scheme be self-defeating?
It might tread on a few toes as well.
It might tread on a few toes as well.
they do not have enough aircraft as it is
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I was all for a change of government at the last election, but if this crap keeps up, the Labor Party won't make it past the next election. I hate to say it, but this proposal, as reported, reeks of Socialism 101. This proposal, should it come to fruition, will do more damage to Australian aviation than any other measure in the last 20 years. It might sound good on paper and appears enticing to many pilots and HR personnel looking for short-term resolution to growing staffing problems, but it's a poison chalice. It's a stop-gap proposal to fix a problem that has been culminating as a result of many years of political and business exploitation. It's going to create massive problems down the road if it goes ahead, not just for the aviation industry, but with huge repercussions throughout the entire Australian community and business market.
It may be that I am just reading more into a slightly disjointed report than I should be, but keeping ex-RAAF pilots and reservists current with RAAF requirements is one thing, and I fully support that, but somehow sharing pilots between organizations sounds to me like a structure aimed towards protectionism, cronyism and nepotism leading to a massive increase in government protection (if that is possible), with a corresponding reduction in business competition and ultimately a decline in pilots' negotiation position and job opportunities. Fitzgibbon's specific reference to Qantas at the exclusion of other current and possibly future airlines does nothing to appease my concern. It's blurring the line between business and government, commercial concerns and military operations. This proposal turns a blind eye to the benefits of a market economy and rolls the clock back 50 years or more to government owned airlines.
I hope someone in Canberra gives Fitzgibbon a couple of short, sharp whacks with the reality stick before he inserts his foot in his mouth again. Defence minister? He doesn't deserve to run a kindergarten with those comments. The Labor Party needs to recognize that it didn't win the last election. The Liberal Party lost it. At this stage, it appears that the Labor party is intent on losing the next one. Between Liberal Transport Ministers and Labor Defence Ministers, it's apparent that there's a massive vacuum in leadership in Canberra affecting both parties.
It may be that I am just reading more into a slightly disjointed report than I should be, but keeping ex-RAAF pilots and reservists current with RAAF requirements is one thing, and I fully support that, but somehow sharing pilots between organizations sounds to me like a structure aimed towards protectionism, cronyism and nepotism leading to a massive increase in government protection (if that is possible), with a corresponding reduction in business competition and ultimately a decline in pilots' negotiation position and job opportunities. Fitzgibbon's specific reference to Qantas at the exclusion of other current and possibly future airlines does nothing to appease my concern. It's blurring the line between business and government, commercial concerns and military operations. This proposal turns a blind eye to the benefits of a market economy and rolls the clock back 50 years or more to government owned airlines.
I hope someone in Canberra gives Fitzgibbon a couple of short, sharp whacks with the reality stick before he inserts his foot in his mouth again. Defence minister? He doesn't deserve to run a kindergarten with those comments. The Labor Party needs to recognize that it didn't win the last election. The Liberal Party lost it. At this stage, it appears that the Labor party is intent on losing the next one. Between Liberal Transport Ministers and Labor Defence Ministers, it's apparent that there's a massive vacuum in leadership in Canberra affecting both parties.
Last edited by Lodown; 28th Nov 2008 at 14:52.
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I'd take anything the Australian media says about aviation with a shovel of salt, and anything they say about military aviation with a truck load.
I'll wait until the dust settles before passing opinion on this one.
HOWEVER I will again beat my drum about the RAAF's pathetic management of it's pilots.
The RAAF really needs to get out of it's "upwards and onwards" mindset of pilot management, i.e. not all pilots want to be promoted. Let's face it, they joined to fly, not to push bits of paper around which the system seems Hell bent on doing to them after about 10 years after graduation.
Additionally the RAAF really needs to take an axe to it's upper command structure (i.e. above unit level). A good start would be the Wing/Group thing, which seems to me to be nothing more than a holding pool for senior officers. 23 years ago we had more flying units, and we seemed to get on just fine without Wings and Groups!
Look after the highly trained, qualified and experienced people we already have and they will stay.
Time for 60 Minutes to do another story about pilot management in the RAAF!
Where's a troll when you need one..................
I'll wait until the dust settles before passing opinion on this one.
HOWEVER I will again beat my drum about the RAAF's pathetic management of it's pilots.
The RAAF really needs to get out of it's "upwards and onwards" mindset of pilot management, i.e. not all pilots want to be promoted. Let's face it, they joined to fly, not to push bits of paper around which the system seems Hell bent on doing to them after about 10 years after graduation.
Additionally the RAAF really needs to take an axe to it's upper command structure (i.e. above unit level). A good start would be the Wing/Group thing, which seems to me to be nothing more than a holding pool for senior officers. 23 years ago we had more flying units, and we seemed to get on just fine without Wings and Groups!
Look after the highly trained, qualified and experienced people we already have and they will stay.
Time for 60 Minutes to do another story about pilot management in the RAAF!
Where's a troll when you need one..................
Now lodown I am not a government apologist but if I were a new Defence Minister and I was told there were not the resources to send a detachment of fighters to Afganistan nor provide medevac to our troops with our own helicopters I would be very displeased.
Scratch the surface and Defence seems to be a basket case. So much so it should be classified for national security reasons.
An initiative to get more pilot numbers per aircraft on RAAF types sensible if you are in the business of going to war. Of course it would be sensible too to look at managing current resources.
Scratch the surface and Defence seems to be a basket case. So much so it should be classified for national security reasons.
An initiative to get more pilot numbers per aircraft on RAAF types sensible if you are in the business of going to war. Of course it would be sensible too to look at managing current resources.
I was all for a change of government at the last election, but if this crap keeps up, the Labor Party won't make it past the next election.
Deserting voters return to restore Rudd ratings | The Australian
Most voters don't care about these issues. I don't know how it will work but at least he is doing something.
if I were a new Defence Minister and I was told there were not the resources to send a detachment of fighters to Afganistan nor provide medevac to our troops with our own helicopters I would be very displeased.
Scratch the surface and Defence seems to be a basket case. So much so it should be classified for national security reasons.
Scratch the surface and Defence seems to be a basket case. So much so it should be classified for national security reasons.
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Gnadenburg, yes it looks simple as a proposal, but it goes way further than utilizing reservists like the practice done in the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but US reservists allocate a few weeks every year to USAF Reserve duty, and when called upon, must be made available. The US government keeps at an arms length from the airlines and their operations. This Australian proposal appears (and I stress "appears") to be a lot more in-depth and seems to be a joint utilization more for convenience than national defence. "Sharing" of pilots means the government will be in the aviation business, and the airlines will be in the military business, whether intending to be or not.
Yes, an initiative to get/retain more pilots into the military and the commercial arenas would be smart, but the proposed solution, as reported, is IMHO, the wrong solution. Join the RAAF and get a job with Qantas! It means the airlines have a vested interest in the military/government and vice versa; moreso than if the pilots are in the Reserves and called up for wartime duty. This proposal appears to apply even during peacetime.
The solution to the shortage of pilots has been discussed at length by PPRuNe contributors, especially WRT to Rex and their woes. And as for the RAAF...they've purchased everything hi-tech except an image that encourages recruits and personnel retention. Blame a culture of indiscriminate cost-cutting in part, and little consideration for the lives of the people being affected.
Yes, an initiative to get/retain more pilots into the military and the commercial arenas would be smart, but the proposed solution, as reported, is IMHO, the wrong solution. Join the RAAF and get a job with Qantas! It means the airlines have a vested interest in the military/government and vice versa; moreso than if the pilots are in the Reserves and called up for wartime duty. This proposal appears to apply even during peacetime.
The solution to the shortage of pilots has been discussed at length by PPRuNe contributors, especially WRT to Rex and their woes. And as for the RAAF...they've purchased everything hi-tech except an image that encourages recruits and personnel retention. Blame a culture of indiscriminate cost-cutting in part, and little consideration for the lives of the people being affected.
Last edited by Lodown; 29th Nov 2008 at 00:12.
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with A330 tankers, 737/BBJs, 737 based wedgetails and potentially 737 based P8 Poseidons the RAAF's fleet could soon look a lot like Qantas'.
Next replace the Caribous with Dash 8s?
It's all a very logical proposal to me, but why should VB 737 or Jetstar A330 pilots be excluded?
Next replace the Caribous with Dash 8s?
It's all a very logical proposal to me, but why should VB 737 or Jetstar A330 pilots be excluded?
Capt Sand Dune is on the money.
The shortage of RAAF pilots is a systemic one due to the gross lack of senior leadership over the past 15 years, plus political interference by ministers, all of whom do not comprehend captaincy development beyond their own limited (often single pilot) experience. Calls to change the RAAF pilot training pipelines have been 'disregarded' for years by the senior leaders with their 70's - 80's thinking. They are directly responsible for dismissing the solutions.
They have failed to understand that the previous system of numerous caribous, RAAF helicopters, draggies, plus 2 FTS/CFS jet ops generated early captains for early commands and experience suited to move up and skipper the bigger / faster metal and so fill all the holes. The system was self-sustaining and could regenerate quickly. Now the helos are gone (we used to have 300 helo pilots all trained on macchi jet, many of who ended up flying fast jets), the remaining caribous will be pushed against the fence (standby for news on that one). Fast jet pilots now have to train on four types rather than the previous three (high costs and additional 6-8 months than in the past to train),ten draggies have been replaced with six Kingairs with more stringent command requirements, and the training jet ops are long gone whilst the PC9 (unpressurised, no radar, no antice, 80s vintage systems) is mainly a powerful low-level aerobat whose $20Mil glass upgrade ($17 Mil spent already) was dumped during 2007 to avoid further cost embarrassment during an election year. Meanwhile the RAAF inventory has moved into glass cockpits, lots of automations and more heavy metal with longer timelines to command. The whole system now does not now produce the numbers of pilots in time nor adequately experienced for the jobs. Now a boggie out of 2FTS course cannot get an operational command on a large automated type during their first or sometimes second tour, and at the moment they can be waiting around for 18 months doing admin until type conversion. All this means the system is no longer self-recovering except over a very long period, and will remain so until these senior leaders wake up.
Effective solutions were analyzed and developed over many years to set up the very numbers and competencies needed. These were presented to CAFAC, but disregarded within minutes on simple whims...preferring to be focused on simple issues that sprang to mind like how long the PC9 would last, and when another bonus could used to temp stayers.
This "share pilots" idea is yet another naive puff of smoke from senior leadership to find a cheap solution without an understanding of complex systemic, industrial and personnel issues. It will not solve the underlying problem that the training and experience-generating pipelines are broken. (so is recruiting by the way)
Endat
The shortage of RAAF pilots is a systemic one due to the gross lack of senior leadership over the past 15 years, plus political interference by ministers, all of whom do not comprehend captaincy development beyond their own limited (often single pilot) experience. Calls to change the RAAF pilot training pipelines have been 'disregarded' for years by the senior leaders with their 70's - 80's thinking. They are directly responsible for dismissing the solutions.
They have failed to understand that the previous system of numerous caribous, RAAF helicopters, draggies, plus 2 FTS/CFS jet ops generated early captains for early commands and experience suited to move up and skipper the bigger / faster metal and so fill all the holes. The system was self-sustaining and could regenerate quickly. Now the helos are gone (we used to have 300 helo pilots all trained on macchi jet, many of who ended up flying fast jets), the remaining caribous will be pushed against the fence (standby for news on that one). Fast jet pilots now have to train on four types rather than the previous three (high costs and additional 6-8 months than in the past to train),ten draggies have been replaced with six Kingairs with more stringent command requirements, and the training jet ops are long gone whilst the PC9 (unpressurised, no radar, no antice, 80s vintage systems) is mainly a powerful low-level aerobat whose $20Mil glass upgrade ($17 Mil spent already) was dumped during 2007 to avoid further cost embarrassment during an election year. Meanwhile the RAAF inventory has moved into glass cockpits, lots of automations and more heavy metal with longer timelines to command. The whole system now does not now produce the numbers of pilots in time nor adequately experienced for the jobs. Now a boggie out of 2FTS course cannot get an operational command on a large automated type during their first or sometimes second tour, and at the moment they can be waiting around for 18 months doing admin until type conversion. All this means the system is no longer self-recovering except over a very long period, and will remain so until these senior leaders wake up.
Effective solutions were analyzed and developed over many years to set up the very numbers and competencies needed. These were presented to CAFAC, but disregarded within minutes on simple whims...preferring to be focused on simple issues that sprang to mind like how long the PC9 would last, and when another bonus could used to temp stayers.
This "share pilots" idea is yet another naive puff of smoke from senior leadership to find a cheap solution without an understanding of complex systemic, industrial and personnel issues. It will not solve the underlying problem that the training and experience-generating pipelines are broken. (so is recruiting by the way)
Endat
Last edited by Roller Merlin; 29th Nov 2008 at 02:41.
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Qantas is a commercially driven organisation, administered by CASA whose primary concern is for the fare paying passenger. Therefore - in line with CASA's mandate, the flight and duty times QANTAS pilots log whilst flying with the RAAF must be taken into account ie they must reduce the their flight and duty times with Qantas.
Therefore do you honestly think in this day and age Qantas will agree to reduce the availability of their pilots?
Therefore do you honestly think in this day and age Qantas will agree to reduce the availability of their pilots?
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They will in a down-turn. When things are going well however they chronically under-man their fleets and won't have any spare pilots available to go to the RAAF.
What could work is having A330 and 737 pilots trained up for surge operations. But even that would take pilots away from the airlines for a certain amount of time during the year to maintain currency in RAAF operations.
The Government would have to fund some sort of pilot surplus in the airlines to allow for this.
What could work is having A330 and 737 pilots trained up for surge operations. But even that would take pilots away from the airlines for a certain amount of time during the year to maintain currency in RAAF operations.
The Government would have to fund some sort of pilot surplus in the airlines to allow for this.
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Why only QANTAS?
It's interesting that RAAF pilots are able to fly the unsuspecting public around in Virgin 73's Whilst in RAAF uniforms, yet with the idea of going the other way the Virgin civvie pilots don't rate a mention.
I'm sure the RAAF would appreciate civvie pilots getting around flying fast jets in their funky brown virgin uniforms.
I'm sure the RAAF would appreciate civvie pilots getting around flying fast jets in their funky brown virgin uniforms.