Qantas and RAAF pool pilots
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This isn’t about some ex-RAAF Qantas pilots flying F18s or F111s. It’s about any and all Qantas 737 pilots flying RAAF 737s and any and all Qantas A330s pilots flying RAAF A330s.
I think anyone with any experience of Canberra, (and to a lesser degree, Russell Hill), can see where this brainstrorm came from. Some bright-eyed Public Serf assistant to the assistant to the minister’s assistant sees that the RAAF is now (or soon will be) operating at least two of (to his/her eyes) exactly the same aircraft types as Qantas, (e.g., A330, B737).
The RAAF is screaming pilot shortage, but Qantas has seven or eight crews per aircraft. So, the bright spark in Canberra I have referred to above says why not use Qantas pilots to fly the RAAF aircraft that are same (or so he/she thinks) as the ones they fly for Qantas every day?
No one wearing a uniform in the corridors of Russell Hill can get the message across to the politicians and their ‘expert’ civilian staffs that there's a huge difference between flying an A300 between Perth and Singapore and flying an A330 tanker on a tactical mission with a brace of F18s, just as there's an equally huge difference in flying a 737 pax flight and a Wedgetail mission. (The VIP operation? Could just possibly be made to work, but would egos allow it? Would Kev and other pollies want any and every mere line pilot in QF to be entrusted with their well-being?)
About the only way I could see it working would be to have the 'captain' of the aircraft a serving RAAF officer, a bit like the RAF used to do on their maritime aircraft, where the TACO (a Nav) was the operational captain and the pilot ‘the commander’ only in aspects associated with flight safety. However, this would almost defeat its own purpose, as you'd still need one or more extra RAAF officers, even if they weren't a pilot or current on type, for each civil crew-operated mission. The RAAF navigator mafia would love it, but I can only imagine some of the 'old school' Skippy captains I know in that situation, and imagine your average QF pilot putting up with the crap the RAAF guys take in their stride on ops, i.e. basic (and I mean basic!) accommodation, roster changes, extended duty periods etc.
I think anyone with any experience of Canberra, (and to a lesser degree, Russell Hill), can see where this brainstrorm came from. Some bright-eyed Public Serf assistant to the assistant to the minister’s assistant sees that the RAAF is now (or soon will be) operating at least two of (to his/her eyes) exactly the same aircraft types as Qantas, (e.g., A330, B737).
The RAAF is screaming pilot shortage, but Qantas has seven or eight crews per aircraft. So, the bright spark in Canberra I have referred to above says why not use Qantas pilots to fly the RAAF aircraft that are same (or so he/she thinks) as the ones they fly for Qantas every day?
No one wearing a uniform in the corridors of Russell Hill can get the message across to the politicians and their ‘expert’ civilian staffs that there's a huge difference between flying an A300 between Perth and Singapore and flying an A330 tanker on a tactical mission with a brace of F18s, just as there's an equally huge difference in flying a 737 pax flight and a Wedgetail mission. (The VIP operation? Could just possibly be made to work, but would egos allow it? Would Kev and other pollies want any and every mere line pilot in QF to be entrusted with their well-being?)
About the only way I could see it working would be to have the 'captain' of the aircraft a serving RAAF officer, a bit like the RAF used to do on their maritime aircraft, where the TACO (a Nav) was the operational captain and the pilot ‘the commander’ only in aspects associated with flight safety. However, this would almost defeat its own purpose, as you'd still need one or more extra RAAF officers, even if they weren't a pilot or current on type, for each civil crew-operated mission. The RAAF navigator mafia would love it, but I can only imagine some of the 'old school' Skippy captains I know in that situation, and imagine your average QF pilot putting up with the crap the RAAF guys take in their stride on ops, i.e. basic (and I mean basic!) accommodation, roster changes, extended duty periods etc.
A380-800 driver, you would be correct in that civil pilots could fly the aircraft without problems. Of course the major issue is their legal obligation to also be ordered to go anywhere at anytime, get shot at and shoot back in defence of the state under the defence Act and forget everything about the Civil equivalent aviation laws.
They would have to do all the military operational management stuff that goes with what little flying there is in the military: eg: tactical co-ord with FJ operations, exercise planning, deployments for a month or more, develop SOPs, run and participate in military meetings, be at work for all manner of general duties when not flying, maintain high fitness etc as is done by military pilots.
There are already many ex-RAAF pilots who still reserve back as you indicate (I am one) and units like 76SQN Hawk could not operate without short term assistance. However units like 76SQN run daily flying programs where reservists can plug in and out at will. The increasing problem is to generating long-term reserve pilot opportunities on the heavy metal to do all the operations stuff above......the very reason many left the RAAF in the first place. Long term reservists cost as much as full time permanents...not a bean counting solution. As I said previously, the RAAF training pipelines are fractured the unwise are trying to find cheap solutions without acknowledging the real issues.
They would have to do all the military operational management stuff that goes with what little flying there is in the military: eg: tactical co-ord with FJ operations, exercise planning, deployments for a month or more, develop SOPs, run and participate in military meetings, be at work for all manner of general duties when not flying, maintain high fitness etc as is done by military pilots.
There are already many ex-RAAF pilots who still reserve back as you indicate (I am one) and units like 76SQN Hawk could not operate without short term assistance. However units like 76SQN run daily flying programs where reservists can plug in and out at will. The increasing problem is to generating long-term reserve pilot opportunities on the heavy metal to do all the operations stuff above......the very reason many left the RAAF in the first place. Long term reservists cost as much as full time permanents...not a bean counting solution. As I said previously, the RAAF training pipelines are fractured the unwise are trying to find cheap solutions without acknowledging the real issues.
It is for the same old reason that I left the RAAF so many years ago...
If the Government would pay the RAAF and other military pilots the same as, or better than Qantas pays its pilots, then the military would not be short of pilots.
If you spend billions on military weapons and equipment but only pennies to the men who operate and maintain them (very often under onerous and life-threatening conditions), then you should not be surprised to be out-bid by civil commercial business for the skilled manpower.
But we are now run by Commonwealth and State Governments that are so incompetent that they cannot even maintain a Health system to meet the basic health needs of the population.
So I suspect that based on past performance and current incompetence that nothing is likely to change.
If the Government would pay the RAAF and other military pilots the same as, or better than Qantas pays its pilots, then the military would not be short of pilots.
If you spend billions on military weapons and equipment but only pennies to the men who operate and maintain them (very often under onerous and life-threatening conditions), then you should not be surprised to be out-bid by civil commercial business for the skilled manpower.
But we are now run by Commonwealth and State Governments that are so incompetent that they cannot even maintain a Health system to meet the basic health needs of the population.
So I suspect that based on past performance and current incompetence that nothing is likely to change.
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mixed fleet/force flying MFF...
Why not take it a bit further - give all RAAF pilots QF 'ghost ' seniority numbers when they join the RAAF.?
Paying them the same as QF pilots would certainly go a long way to solve the retention issues.
I don't think that would go down well with the QF lads however.
For the same reasons that I as an ex RAAF 707 QFI with 5000 A330 hours and about 1000 on the 777 ( mostly command time), cannot go straight to the top of the QF pile as a DEC in their system, would seem to be much the same as the RAAF not being keen to take QF guys without any military experience into their fold.
The operation is completely different for all the reason the chaps above me espoused. Let alone the legal issues etc.
Yes it could all be done but outsourcing things to commercial operators has been done before not always with success ( ie the Westralia disaster comes to mind).
As an example, during my first few flights with Ansett we taxied in one way to an apron one afternoon and then on the way out had to taxi another way and back track the runway... when I asked the captain why we just didn't go out the way we had just come in an hour earlier he said it was unlit and therefore not usable. Probably right too...but...... to me as a RAAF pilot I would have just used the lights that the aircraft has fitted... I can't see how any obstacles could have 'magically' appeared in an hour... just to illustrate the difference in operational control that exists between the military and civll ops.
It does take some getting used too - in both directions!
fire away lads!!
woodj
Paying them the same as QF pilots would certainly go a long way to solve the retention issues.
I don't think that would go down well with the QF lads however.
For the same reasons that I as an ex RAAF 707 QFI with 5000 A330 hours and about 1000 on the 777 ( mostly command time), cannot go straight to the top of the QF pile as a DEC in their system, would seem to be much the same as the RAAF not being keen to take QF guys without any military experience into their fold.
The operation is completely different for all the reason the chaps above me espoused. Let alone the legal issues etc.
Yes it could all be done but outsourcing things to commercial operators has been done before not always with success ( ie the Westralia disaster comes to mind).
As an example, during my first few flights with Ansett we taxied in one way to an apron one afternoon and then on the way out had to taxi another way and back track the runway... when I asked the captain why we just didn't go out the way we had just come in an hour earlier he said it was unlit and therefore not usable. Probably right too...but...... to me as a RAAF pilot I would have just used the lights that the aircraft has fitted... I can't see how any obstacles could have 'magically' appeared in an hour... just to illustrate the difference in operational control that exists between the military and civll ops.
It does take some getting used too - in both directions!
fire away lads!!
woodj
As an example, during my first few flights with Ansett we taxied in one way to an apron one afternoon and then on the way out had to taxi another way and back track the runway... when I asked the captain why we just didn't go out the way we had just come in an hour earlier he said it was unlit and therefore not usable. Probably right too...but...... to me as a RAAF pilot I would have just used the lights that the aircraft has fitted... I can't see how any obstacles could have 'magically' appeared in an hour... just to illustrate the difference in operational control that exists between the military and civll ops.
I would suggest the Ansett Captain was using very effective risk assesment- would you risk a 300 to 400 thousand dollar a year job ( in today's dollars ) on an unlit taxiway with a cocky-new co-pilot as support?
A safe and sensible option.
Incidentally, there a few Ansett pilots who flew tankers with SAC, as captains, on nuclear standby or sitting in race tracks above the north pole. Well under a thousand hours had them as commanders in a military skills-set they themselves said was unexceptional. And I doubt one of them would be inclined to risk being busted back to an F/O, retrained or whatever; by taxiing down an unlit apron.
There is a can not attitude in Defence. If Australia was ever to go to war, assets such as tankers and AWACs need high numbers of crews- look at USAF Gulf War hours for reservists on transports etc.
Using civilian pilots without military experience ridiculuous- except for VIP op's perhaps.
Maintaining a reserve of crews to quickly bring assets to wartime utilization rates if need be common sense- hundreds of ex-RAAF pilots are current on Airbus or Boeing. How can it not be done economically and with minimal strains on current resources? Attracting guys is easy- pilots are suckers for tax breaks etc.
Having a pool of crews, current on civilian jets used by the RAAF, could without fanfare be bolted on to AWAC & tanker squadrons in time of war.
Why is only QANTAS mentioned?
What about Virgin, Jetstar, or Cathay pilots?
I'm with Flexible Response on this one - pay RAAF pilots a bit more - retention SOLVED. Bunch of bloody tight-arse, tree huggin' pollies still haven't got that through their FICK EDS.
If QANTAS pilots actually want to spend their valuable lifestyle time off in the military instead of with their families then they should do staff work and secondary duties. That way the boggies and junior captains can go out and do the flying they're paid for, and get the experience that is apparently so difficult to achieve.
What about Virgin, Jetstar, or Cathay pilots?
I'm with Flexible Response on this one - pay RAAF pilots a bit more - retention SOLVED. Bunch of bloody tight-arse, tree huggin' pollies still haven't got that through their FICK EDS.
If QANTAS pilots actually want to spend their valuable lifestyle time off in the military instead of with their families then they should do staff work and secondary duties. That way the boggies and junior captains can go out and do the flying they're paid for, and get the experience that is apparently so difficult to achieve.
Why not take it a bit further - give all RAAF pilots QF 'ghost ' seniority numbers when they join the RAAF.?
It isn't. It's a publicly listed company whose only responsibility is to make a return to it's shareholders.
Any such scheme would have to be AT LEAST cost neutral to QF.
Long term reservists cost as much as full time permanents...not a bean counting solution.
While serving with the Army in 2003 I met a C-5 Pilot who, in his day job, was an NYC cop. He was a USAF reservist and was called up on Sept 11 2001 to support MEAO ops and was still going in 2003.
I didn't go into his flying background so I don't know if he ever flew civil a/c but it does beg the question; If the USAF can have reservists, who are not even employed civillian pilots, flying their heavy metal (with the right training of course) why can't the RAAF have employed civillian pilots flying their aircraft as reservists?
It would take further training of course, but surely it is cost effective. It would take a big change in the culture of the ADF to make it work.
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pay RAAF pilots a bit more - retention SOLVED
Even if the average squadron pilot could be assured of flying postings for his whole career, (he can't be), in my day, (I'm sure someone will tell us all if it has changed), that career ends at 45 for a GD Flt Lt and 47 for a GD Sqn Ldr, a bit early for the average man/woman with a family to support.
An SD Aircrew mustering, (as was [is??] used by the RAF) has been suggested to the powers that be in Canberra every year or two and to date, it has never even looked like being approved. (I accept that the reasons they give against the idea have some validity in such a small force as the RAAF: SD aircrew filling half the slots on active squadrons would mean even fewer slots on flying squadrons for GD pilots shinnying up the greasy pole.)
In one of the (predictable) replies to my earlier post, I was reminded of the currently running "Flight Attendant Demoted to First Officer" thread, where the respondent quickly remined me (not incorrectly) how incredibly more experienced the average Qantas FO is than most RAAF VIP pilots.
However, I feel that most if not all pilots who've not flown in the military environment have no idea of the many facets of an average day's operation a Service pilot deals with that even the most experienced civil pilot will never see - even in the more prosiac operations like Transport and Refuelling squadrons.
I mentioned above that I thought that maybe the VIP operation could be handled by civil pilots. I'd have to say that on second thought, I'm not so sure I was right. But perhaps I'm selling the average domestic QF 737 pilot short. Maybe the average Qandom pilot feels he'd have no problem at all being called out to take the PM to JFK, Mosow, Kandahar or pick your exotic airport.
Pieceufpiss, innit?
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How do you figure that? I'm not being critical, I'm just curious as to how you came to that conclusion.
I think the bottom line is the ADF needs to make it easier for aircrew to return for reservist work, and make it more appealing for their civilian employees. no need to train civvies to fly mil aircraft.
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Sigh...at this rate we should rename this thread 'Why RAAF pilots are leaving'.
A sign of any organisations ability to make real, lasting cultural change is the ability to make hard decisions when times are good. (Its easier when its bad, because you are forced to) Air Force HQ has failed this test and will continue to fail it. Binnie will not save you, he is the product of the same system that produced the rest of the system maintainers. The pathetic retention bonus that was thrown at everyone at years start and the dead in the water pilot retention review are clear signs of this.
Remember the good times, there's no point worrying and making yourself upset. If you got out, make the most of your new life. If you didn't and are waiting to leave, don't worry, all recessions end. If you do stay, then maybe, just maybe, you'll have the balls to do what needs to be done.
A sign of any organisations ability to make real, lasting cultural change is the ability to make hard decisions when times are good. (Its easier when its bad, because you are forced to) Air Force HQ has failed this test and will continue to fail it. Binnie will not save you, he is the product of the same system that produced the rest of the system maintainers. The pathetic retention bonus that was thrown at everyone at years start and the dead in the water pilot retention review are clear signs of this.
Remember the good times, there's no point worrying and making yourself upset. If you got out, make the most of your new life. If you didn't and are waiting to leave, don't worry, all recessions end. If you do stay, then maybe, just maybe, you'll have the balls to do what needs to be done.
But perhaps I'm selling the average domestic QF 737 pilot short. Maybe the average Qandom pilot feels he'd have no problem at all being called out to take the PM to JFK, Mosow, Kandahar or pick your exotic airport.
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Pooling pilots:
"Today's Wedgetail services are proudly sponsored by Big Roo Airlines. Unfortunately, it is company policy not to fly in uncontrolled or hostile airspace due to possible commercial retaliation to Big Roo Airlines by non-combatants friendly to our enemy and other legal repercussions, which would distress our shareholders. So, today's planned mission somewhere over the Indian Ocean has been deferred until we have been granted approval from the Big Roo legal team in consultation with government lawyers. For the present time, we will be limiting our operations to friendly skies. So sit back, enjoy the flight and listen to our country's fighter pilots try and find their way around enemy skies by Braille."
or:
"Welcome aboard Mr. Prime Minister. Big Roo Airlines is proud to be your pilot source of choice. We should inform you that Big Roo Airline pilots are currently in an industrial dispute with management over wages and benefits. We realize you have critical affairs of state, but we have been directed to inform you that we are unable to service your aircraft until further notice. If your travel plans are important, we advise you to take a regular airline flight to your destination instead."
Don't know the ins and outs of the VIP Sqdn, but if civvy pilots are flying heads of state, does this mean that the heads of state have to go through the Customs and Immigration gates like everyone else? I would imagine that communications and organizing visits by heads of state goes through military channels. What changes would be necessary for contracted commercial pilots? That's not even considering military and state secrets (if there are any worth keeping). And as for the image...Australia doesn't even have enough pilots in the RAAF to fly the Prime Minister on official business.
It must have been desperate times indeed before Australia's population exceeded 20 million.
Sounds like the RAAF has the same problem as AsA: short-sighted managers with silver tongues who gave little thought to future staffing issues in the rush to earn a bonus and cut costs. It doesn't say much for the pollies or their staff if they are buying into, and regurgitating, these excuses so readily.
I would guess that Fitzgibbon's suggestion is for previously proposed instructor slots, but if the intention is for operations staff, then I don't know why Fitzgibbon just doesn't come out and say that the RAAF is so short of pilots that hiring mercenaries is a possible option to consider.
"Today's Wedgetail services are proudly sponsored by Big Roo Airlines. Unfortunately, it is company policy not to fly in uncontrolled or hostile airspace due to possible commercial retaliation to Big Roo Airlines by non-combatants friendly to our enemy and other legal repercussions, which would distress our shareholders. So, today's planned mission somewhere over the Indian Ocean has been deferred until we have been granted approval from the Big Roo legal team in consultation with government lawyers. For the present time, we will be limiting our operations to friendly skies. So sit back, enjoy the flight and listen to our country's fighter pilots try and find their way around enemy skies by Braille."
or:
"Welcome aboard Mr. Prime Minister. Big Roo Airlines is proud to be your pilot source of choice. We should inform you that Big Roo Airline pilots are currently in an industrial dispute with management over wages and benefits. We realize you have critical affairs of state, but we have been directed to inform you that we are unable to service your aircraft until further notice. If your travel plans are important, we advise you to take a regular airline flight to your destination instead."
Don't know the ins and outs of the VIP Sqdn, but if civvy pilots are flying heads of state, does this mean that the heads of state have to go through the Customs and Immigration gates like everyone else? I would imagine that communications and organizing visits by heads of state goes through military channels. What changes would be necessary for contracted commercial pilots? That's not even considering military and state secrets (if there are any worth keeping). And as for the image...Australia doesn't even have enough pilots in the RAAF to fly the Prime Minister on official business.
Mr Fitzgibbon said Australia's population was too small to sustain public and private employment needs.
Sounds like the RAAF has the same problem as AsA: short-sighted managers with silver tongues who gave little thought to future staffing issues in the rush to earn a bonus and cut costs. It doesn't say much for the pollies or their staff if they are buying into, and regurgitating, these excuses so readily.
I would guess that Fitzgibbon's suggestion is for previously proposed instructor slots, but if the intention is for operations staff, then I don't know why Fitzgibbon just doesn't come out and say that the RAAF is so short of pilots that hiring mercenaries is a possible option to consider.
Last edited by Lodown; 1st Dec 2008 at 18:07.
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framer
Planning the route, organising Dip Clearances, generating your own flightplan, organising your own ground handling, to name just a few that the average airline jock doesn't do. I'm not saying that they wouldn't be able to learn it, but frankly i would suggest that they wouldn't know where to start when the tasking order came across the desk that the the PM needs to go to Israel in 3 days.
But on the other hand, for the mundane domestic VIP stuff, an average airline 737 driver would cope perfectly well with a bit of indoctrination.
V
But on the other hand, for the mundane domestic VIP stuff, an average airline 737 driver would cope perfectly well with a bit of indoctrination.
V
Dip Clearances, generating your own flightplan, organising your own ground handling,
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in framer, we have here either a very badly misplaced sense of humour or that scariest of all things, a man who doesn't know that he he doesn't know.
I agree that anyone current on a similar type could fly the RAAF aircraft. However, to operate it competently and the way the RAAF would want it to be operated would be another matter altogether.
If it's as Wiley suggests, a money-saving(?) plan to put any QF pilot who's current on type into a RAAF aircraft, it would have to be put in the 'really silly ideas for Defence from politicians' column - unfortunately, already a very long column. If it's for better utilisation of reservists, with experience in the RAAF, it might have some merit.
Why is it that I think Wiley's suggestion might be close to the mark?
I agree that anyone current on a similar type could fly the RAAF aircraft. However, to operate it competently and the way the RAAF would want it to be operated would be another matter altogether.
If it's as Wiley suggests, a money-saving(?) plan to put any QF pilot who's current on type into a RAAF aircraft, it would have to be put in the 'really silly ideas for Defence from politicians' column - unfortunately, already a very long column. If it's for better utilisation of reservists, with experience in the RAAF, it might have some merit.
Why is it that I think Wiley's suggestion might be close to the mark?
Nunc est bibendum
Planning the route, organising Dip Clearances, generating your own flightplan, organising your own ground handling, to name just a few that the average airline jock doesn't do.
