New Ticket Team vying to wrest control of AIPA
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The CP said to me in the lift at QCC, before the vote was taken, "If you are senior to GD you will vote yes and if you are junior to GD, read the fine print."
Other than rumour when did the CP say/write that EBA 8 was a disaster? Maybe a bit of group think here I reckon.
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Captain Peacock - you must have multiple personalities because I have heard the same rumour from about 6 different people who said they heard it also in the same lift at the same time. Must've been pretty squeezy!
I guess this is a rumour network.
If he said it was going to be great would have you voted it up?
What got my goat was the number of crew who voted it down just because they didn't like someone, or just plain didn't even read it!
I guess this is a rumour network.
If he said it was going to be great would have you voted it up?
What got my goat was the number of crew who voted it down just because they didn't like someone, or just plain didn't even read it!
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Or voted like a lot of other EBA's in the past with an opening NO vote to give the EBA Negotiators something to go back with to fix up a few contentious sticking points and ignoring the impending economic conditions.
Then again who cares ,this is all conjecture and ancient history.
I'm sure Team Bazza will dazzle us with their brilliance.
Then again who cares ,this is all conjecture and ancient history.
I'm sure Team Bazza will dazzle us with their brilliance.
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Razor, when I got into the lift with the CP, nobody else could fit. With my beer gut and his big head meant there wasn't any more room to fit anybody else in.
I think you will find, that that EBA was read and dissected by more people than any other EBA gone before.
Even the new CP candidly said in a few places (various meetings I was attending) that he was surprised at the extent of changes to of our contract that was offered up by AIPA. He wasn't surprised it was voted down , but he was surprised by how much.
Yup, max autobrakes is right, it's old history now, but GD still has his nose out of joint about it and keeps crying on QR. Poor fella. He should just crawl away and let the Bazza team do their job.
I think you will find, that that EBA was read and dissected by more people than any other EBA gone before.
Even the new CP candidly said in a few places (various meetings I was attending) that he was surprised at the extent of changes to of our contract that was offered up by AIPA. He wasn't surprised it was voted down , but he was surprised by how much.
Yup, max autobrakes is right, it's old history now, but GD still has his nose out of joint about it and keeps crying on QR. Poor fella. He should just crawl away and let the Bazza team do their job.
Captain Peacock - you must have multiple personalities because I have heard the same rumour from about 6 different people who said they heard it also in the same lift at the same time. Must've been pretty squeezy!
I guess this is a rumour network.
If he said it was going to be great would have you voted it up?
What got my goat was the number of crew who voted it down just because they didn't like someone, or just plain didn't even read it!
I guess this is a rumour network.
If he said it was going to be great would have you voted it up?
What got my goat was the number of crew who voted it down just because they didn't like someone, or just plain didn't even read it!
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The pot of money set aside for the 5% A380 pay premium should be redistributed instead to all pilots, of all ranks on all fleets, based on the present rates in EBA 7. Keep the door open for fleet pay and a better rate for the 787. VOTE NO.
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Money aside Jaded, I hear told that AIPA's feather duster - El Presidente is publicly stating:
Tough call for the membership. But suspect history will be kinder to El Presidente than it will be to Team Bazza. 
·Should promotional opportunity for Mainliners to move from Qantas to Qantas Jetstar and back again not eventuate - mainline promotion will take a heavy hit in the years ahead,
·the demise of LHEBA Version 1 - means ‘whole of life real income ‘for Mainliners not yet captains, will be much less than it otherwise would have been, and
·It is likely that Qantas will demand more flexibility from its pilots than what LHEBA 8 Version 1 offered.
·the demise of LHEBA Version 1 - means ‘whole of life real income ‘for Mainliners not yet captains, will be much less than it otherwise would have been, and
·It is likely that Qantas will demand more flexibility from its pilots than what LHEBA 8 Version 1 offered.
Nunc est bibendum
Miracle? No.
Good deal? No.
'Adequate' deal for pay rate rises? Yes, but only adequate.
Back pay? Ordinary to poor. Could have done much better. Much smoke and mirrors on this.
Fleet pay deal for S/Os who have no choice of fleet they go to? No.
A fair assessment of the relative value between A380 S/O and 767 F/O? No.
So whilst it will get voted up by a fair margin we're deluding ourselves if we think this is a 'good' deal let alone a 'miracle'.
It's barely even 'adequate' for most crew. For some of us it doesn't address the critical issues.
Good deal? No.
'Adequate' deal for pay rate rises? Yes, but only adequate.
Back pay? Ordinary to poor. Could have done much better. Much smoke and mirrors on this.
Fleet pay deal for S/Os who have no choice of fleet they go to? No.
A fair assessment of the relative value between A380 S/O and 767 F/O? No.
So whilst it will get voted up by a fair margin we're deluding ourselves if we think this is a 'good' deal let alone a 'miracle'.
It's barely even 'adequate' for most crew. For some of us it doesn't address the critical issues.
Keg, if the money is "adequate" and we haven't lost any conditions, then surely it's not a bad deal.
The best bit about it is that once it is in place, negotiations will begin almost immediately for EBA9 (or is it still 8?) and will involve input from crew from the outset.
Surely that's not a bad outcome...then perhaps work can start on fixing things like day one lottery, F/O vs. S/O pay etc.
The best bit about it is that once it is in place, negotiations will begin almost immediately for EBA9 (or is it still 8?) and will involve input from crew from the outset.
Surely that's not a bad outcome...then perhaps work can start on fixing things like day one lottery, F/O vs. S/O pay etc.
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Keg,
I have to disagree with the majority of your post. Under the current economic climate and competition from other airlines and comparing T&C's I would say
miracle - yes
good deal - yes
yes there are a few things that need further work but as a whole everything considered I think AIPA have done a good job. People keep jumping up and down about s/o verse f/o pay, yet this is no different to the day one lottery. Some guys get promotion in 18 months and some after 5 years are still to junior for any slot, so why should they be punished for the lottery of their start date.. I am sure most s/o's would swap positions with a 767 f/o. Some guys are starring down the barrel as a very long time as s/o's through no fault of their own so why does everyone want to punish guys just for being s/o's...
People need to stop complaining and being greedy, stop and have look around at the real world and realize how lucky they are and how good they actually have it.....
I have to disagree with the majority of your post. Under the current economic climate and competition from other airlines and comparing T&C's I would say
miracle - yes
good deal - yes
yes there are a few things that need further work but as a whole everything considered I think AIPA have done a good job. People keep jumping up and down about s/o verse f/o pay, yet this is no different to the day one lottery. Some guys get promotion in 18 months and some after 5 years are still to junior for any slot, so why should they be punished for the lottery of their start date.. I am sure most s/o's would swap positions with a 767 f/o. Some guys are starring down the barrel as a very long time as s/o's through no fault of their own so why does everyone want to punish guys just for being s/o's...
People need to stop complaining and being greedy, stop and have look around at the real world and realize how lucky they are and how good they actually have it.....
Nunc est bibendum
TL, there is a difference between a 'barely adequate' deal and a 'bad' deal. This is not a bad deal but it's not a 'good' one either. Do the current econimic circumstances change it from adequate to good? Hard to say. I'd say that given the last two years then the deal is still barely adequate.
justdrinkit, we'll have to agree to disagree. This EBA could have been significantly better for S/Os and F/Os with only minor tweaking- but as I've said elsewhere I'm done with that.
I'd dispute that anyone is being greedy?!?! 
As to the rest of it, you're right. QF drivers earn heaps more than anyone else. Given how good we have it perhaps we should agree to a pay freeze for three or four years. (Note: Hyperbole added to accentuate the point).
justdrinkit, we'll have to agree to disagree. This EBA could have been significantly better for S/Os and F/Os with only minor tweaking- but as I've said elsewhere I'm done with that.
People need to stop complaining and being greedy, stop and have look around at the real world and realize how lucky they are and how good they actually have it.....
As to the rest of it, you're right. QF drivers earn heaps more than anyone else. Given how good we have it perhaps we should agree to a pay freeze for three or four years. (Note: Hyperbole added to accentuate the point).
Rumour has it that at a recent Flt Crew Briefing Capt T. informed the troops if Charlie Q doesn't make $500 mill profit then goodbye credit rating - hello higher interest payments - goodbye Big White Rat within 5 years
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Its a rollover EBA. If you look at the pay rises they are pretty much on inflation. People seem to have forgotten that no-one has had a pay rise since the end of 2005, so the percentages look good; that is an illusion however. The average annual inflation rate between 2005 and 2008 was 3.4%. Take that out to mid 2010 when the last increment is due and compound it, I let you do the maths.
Pilots have missed out on 2 1/2 years of interest on that money and Super. (Mind you considering what super has done in the last year.....)
Its not a miracle; my view is that any judgement on this EBA depends on what the Company announces regarding the expansion of Jetstar. My guess is that will happen around one day after the EBA is ratified. Remember they did this with a deliberately "vanilla" EBA 7 in the first place.
Winners:
BLH with MGH to 160.
Anybody on the A380 particularly the S/O's when compared EBA 8 rates.
Any S/O who wins the first day lottery
Access to IRC. AIPA finally erases one of the scourges of the Holt era.
Losers:
Anybody on the 767 compared to EBA 8 rates. A330 not much far behind.
Any S/O who loses the first day lottery.
Any F/O or S/O with plans to take a promotion, as the company resolutely refuses to guarantee anything about the 787 or whatever Qantas orders from now on.
Pilots have missed out on 2 1/2 years of interest on that money and Super. (Mind you considering what super has done in the last year.....)
Its not a miracle; my view is that any judgement on this EBA depends on what the Company announces regarding the expansion of Jetstar. My guess is that will happen around one day after the EBA is ratified. Remember they did this with a deliberately "vanilla" EBA 7 in the first place.
Winners:
BLH with MGH to 160.
Anybody on the A380 particularly the S/O's when compared EBA 8 rates.
Any S/O who wins the first day lottery
Access to IRC. AIPA finally erases one of the scourges of the Holt era.
Losers:
Anybody on the 767 compared to EBA 8 rates. A330 not much far behind.
Any S/O who loses the first day lottery.
Any F/O or S/O with plans to take a promotion, as the company resolutely refuses to guarantee anything about the 787 or whatever Qantas orders from now on.
Nunc est bibendum
(Mind you considering what super has done in the last year.....)
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Hang on Krem,
What do you mean by your statement:
Hasn't Management given AIPA an assurance that mainline pilots will fly the B787 on LH terms and conditions.
What do you mean by your statement:
..company resolutely refuses to guarantee anything about the 787 or whatever Qantas orders from now on..
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Re-read what was written struggling .
The company agrees to negotiate conditions etc blah,blah ,blah.
What if negotiations break down and AIPA and the Company can't come to an agreement on the 787 or whatever new type arrives to replace all the clapped out aircraft in Qantas?
Walk away!
This is nothing but a motherhood agreement that 'aint worth the paper it's printed on and I believe only included to sucker bait a few more yes votes from people who struggle to comprehend , in order to get EBA7/8/? over the line.
Once this EBA is out of the way and any possibility of lawfull retaliation ,you watch ,the real nasty news will start to come out. I wonder how long once the EBA is signed off before the company will be pushing for a pay freeze? There goes that promised pay rise I've been patiently waiting for!
No wonder the company didn't want to back pay on any payrises.
The company agrees to negotiate conditions etc blah,blah ,blah.
What if negotiations break down and AIPA and the Company can't come to an agreement on the 787 or whatever new type arrives to replace all the clapped out aircraft in Qantas?
Walk away!
This is nothing but a motherhood agreement that 'aint worth the paper it's printed on and I believe only included to sucker bait a few more yes votes from people who struggle to comprehend , in order to get EBA7/8/? over the line.
Once this EBA is out of the way and any possibility of lawfull retaliation ,you watch ,the real nasty news will start to come out. I wonder how long once the EBA is signed off before the company will be pushing for a pay freeze? There goes that promised pay rise I've been patiently waiting for!
No wonder the company didn't want to back pay on any payrises.
Capt Kremin,
What is the inflation forecast for FY09/10 and FY10/11, I think it will be somewhat below 3.4%, closer to 2%. So 3% per annum and the Aug 2009 increment change should equate to a 'real' pay rise.
What is the inflation forecast for FY09/10 and FY10/11, I think it will be somewhat below 3.4%, closer to 2%. So 3% per annum and the Aug 2009 increment change should equate to a 'real' pay rise.
FFS, re the 'robbing other people' it had never been suggested that 767 F/O's got the 5% for the from the 380 S/Os. What was suggested was that the extra money went towards 330 (twin engine S/Os) and propped their rate to 744 rates. This would then provide 'S/O fleet pay'. As the current 380 S/Os on current EBA are being paid 744 rates, they will not be 'robbed' of any money, they will stay one their current rate (with the normal % increase everyone else is getting) 330 S/Os pay comes up and the with that elimination of the day 1 lottery. (Anyone who is on an aircraft long enough to get overtime deserves it, so don't change overtime rules). The only mention of the 767 was that doing this would also mean that the strange situation of an S/O having an hourly rate higher than an F/O would be diminished.
Considering the future of the company aircraft allocation (long haul S/O types) of 20 A380s and 80 odd 787/330/350s, wouldn't it make sense to have S/O fleet pay so that every S/O on the twin aircraft has the same hourly rate as on the four engine aircraft for doing exactly the same job? What we will now have is a few people on the 380 been paid exorbitant amounts of money compared to most people on the long haul twins who will earn significantly less for the same job.
As usual greed wins again and most will lose out in the long run as common sense takes another battering.
Considering the future of the company aircraft allocation (long haul S/O types) of 20 A380s and 80 odd 787/330/350s, wouldn't it make sense to have S/O fleet pay so that every S/O on the twin aircraft has the same hourly rate as on the four engine aircraft for doing exactly the same job? What we will now have is a few people on the 380 been paid exorbitant amounts of money compared to most people on the long haul twins who will earn significantly less for the same job.
As usual greed wins again and most will lose out in the long run as common sense takes another battering.
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RE 767 FOs pay - it can't be that hard. A temporary fix just add $5-10/hr to the hourly rate of each yr. It will reduce the margin between 330 FO and 767 FO and fix the disparity b/w S/O and F/O.
Its not a "be all" fix. Its a band aid. Debating the merits of S/O fleet pay can and should be done. Fixing the disparity properly should also be done - but the time involved is long and slow - and everyone has their own barrow of self interest to push. So apply the band aid - like the current EBA proposal - then do some real work to fix the "issues".
Its not a "be all" fix. Its a band aid. Debating the merits of S/O fleet pay can and should be done. Fixing the disparity properly should also be done - but the time involved is long and slow - and everyone has their own barrow of self interest to push. So apply the band aid - like the current EBA proposal - then do some real work to fix the "issues".