AirservicesAustralia wants Overtime to be compulsory
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What does anyone know about the new recruitment of controllers with prior experience (applications for that post closed last weekend), such as those from overseas with a fair few years of controlling expereince behind them AND have the right to work and live in Oz?
Good bet that most of them are RAAFies.
Good bet that most of them are RAAFies.
Most probably, but there are applications in from controllers from overseas who do have experience and the residence status in Oz.
Is the recruitment process going to be fair this time around? The HR-OPS divide was very apparent at the interviews going back a few years.
If yes, good luck to them. Will increase the numbers of controllers and reduce the shortage. Have already heard a few non-Aussie accents on the airwaves recently... and they are good.
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ferris, I can't share your optimism I'm afraid, I can't see AsA budging from 1.85. The 3 hrs rubbish is just to make sure that they don't have interruptions as they continue to rely on OT.
NO WAY ASA, you forgot to mention that 6 months of blipping at 35k pa saves AsA having to employ actual blippies at 50k pa.
Now if only they can get some instructors.
NO WAY ASA, you forgot to mention that 6 months of blipping at 35k pa saves AsA having to employ actual blippies at 50k pa.
Now if only they can get some instructors.
That cycle of shifts (or similar) has been worked for years. It is liked because it is effectively 4 on-4 off. Attempts were made to bring in a roster (prepared by physiologists) that worked opposite to that ie start early when you are freshest at the start of the cycle, starting progressively later as the cycle progressed to give you time to sleep in etc. and counter fatigue build-up. Noone wanted it because it meant you only got 2 days off (same as every one else).They then tried to move the doggo to the next day to avoid the short turnaround. Same problem. Eats into your days off, noone wanted it.
"Now in my group, most of the controllers have to work all night, every six nights, week after week"
It's called shift work. Most shift workers on a rotating roster would love only one night in six. And to be honest, it's not really ALL night is it?
"Now in my group, most of the controllers have to work all night, every six nights, week after week"
It's called shift work. Most shift workers on a rotating roster would love only one night in six. And to be honest, it's not really ALL night is it?
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And to be honest, it's not really ALL night is it?
The single person doggo, an Airservices specialty. To put two on a doggo would require 2 controllers per group. That would eat into the profits.
Look at the bull**** letter to industry when Fraser last went TIBA...single person doggo was not mentioned.
Single person night shifts. Good for your profits when you have lots of goodwill from those not quite 100% (in violation of CARS) to keep the ship sailing. When you bend staff over the table, when you threaten, when you lie, when you make money hand over fist and cry poor, where does goodwill go?
Traffic levels are up, staffing is down, whoops may have cut the rosters a bit tight and not training anyone for a while may have been an oversight but hey...look at the profits!!!
Traffic_Is_Er_Was say hello to every one at Spin City (AWB). Hope to see some new faces on the front of the next Azimuth (someone on his 7th shift in 144 hours minus an hour or so for FAID with his eyeballs hanging won't be trendy).
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It's called shift work. Most shift workers on a rotating roster would love only one night in six. And to be honest, it's not really ALL night is it?
and yes, once you take in to account travelling time (an hour sounds fair) on either end of the shift, it is all bloody night!
so what part of the AWB do you work in, Traffic_Is_Er_Was?
ps. how the hell do you call 4 shifts over 4 days and 2 days off, rinse & repeat a
basically 4on, 4off cycle
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Lawyer for the Plaintiff.......
I believe , Ladies and Gentlemen of the ATC fraternity, that Lowdown is suggesting you not have any "assets" ie. that assets be in trusts or in the names of spouse / partner / children, because if you are involved in a serious incident that can be in anyway attributed to a failing on your part (including, simply being at work when fatigued), you can bet AsA and Government will point the finger and hang you out to dry.
Many professional pilots arrange their affairs in such a manner.
Role on....
Many professional pilots arrange their affairs in such a manner.
Role on....
I don't work in AWB. I don't work for airservices now. But I did work similar rosters when I did. Everyone liked it because of the time off you got. Finishing early in the morning, having the rest of that day off, then 2 full days off, then not starting til mid afternoon the next is effectively 3.5 days off. We all knew it, as do you. How many guys fit in a round of golf before that 1500 start? That's why no-one wants to finish at 2300 on the last day and start at 0500 on the 1st, as you admitted.
I used to get a couple of hours sleep before the doggo, so I wasn't working "all night". Maybe you should try it.
These days I work a rotating roster still, including nights, so my sleep patterns still aren't the greatest, but they are 12 hour shifts, with an hours traveling either side. My days (and nights) are 14 hours. Also most shift workers do do their nights in cycles, however it is usually a lot more frequently than once a "month or so"
I'm not saying the organization is not understaffed, and that the remaining people are not being overused by management, but having seen things from both sides of the fence, you still don't have it so bad.
I used to get a couple of hours sleep before the doggo, so I wasn't working "all night". Maybe you should try it.
These days I work a rotating roster still, including nights, so my sleep patterns still aren't the greatest, but they are 12 hour shifts, with an hours traveling either side. My days (and nights) are 14 hours. Also most shift workers do do their nights in cycles, however it is usually a lot more frequently than once a "month or so"
I'm not saying the organization is not understaffed, and that the remaining people are not being overused by management, but having seen things from both sides of the fence, you still don't have it so bad.
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Have you been smoking crack?
Sounds like a failed controller who likely went into some back room position then got swept out to me. I take it your rotating roster is selling petrol at the local Mobil now. Probably have a dubious grasp on that position skill wise as well I am betting.
Sounds like a failed controller who likely went into some back room position then got swept out to me.
I take it your rotating roster is selling petrol at the local Mobil now. Probably have a dubious grasp on that position skill wise as well I am betting.
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Traffic is er was: That's why no-one wants to finish at 2300 on the last day and start at 0500 on the 1st, as you admitted
And do you think the managers were thrilled with that prospect?
Traffic is er was: I used to get a couple of hours sleep before the doggo, so I wasn't working "all night". Maybe you should try it.
you seem to ignore that fact that I have to work in the morning before the night shift. If I do manage to get a few hours sleep, even 4 say, by the time I finish the night shift, I've had 4 hours sleep in the last 24 or 25 hours. I certainly feel like I've been awake all night after that.
And I use my "3 and 1/2 days off" (as you put it) to catch up on my sleep and see my family, and try to meet my other commitments out side of work.
In your "wisdom", could you tell me how I can do that if the overtime was to become compulsory?
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5 on 2 off, 4 on 3 off....who cares?
My biggests concern is how an organization, entrusted with maintaining the safety of our skies, can even contemplate coersing/forcing (call it what you want) it's operational staff into working overtime on top of an already exhausting shiftwork roster.
Gee! I wonder where that will end?
My biggests concern is how an organization, entrusted with maintaining the safety of our skies, can even contemplate coersing/forcing (call it what you want) it's operational staff into working overtime on top of an already exhausting shiftwork roster.
Gee! I wonder where that will end?
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I am a controller who has worked both types of roster.
Give me start early, finish late every time. You don't realize how tired the start late finish early roster makes you until you have a week or so off and you notice how much better you feel not living with ongoing low level fatigue.
And as for having extra time off-you sacrifice, ease of shift swapping and being able to do anything meaningful within your shift run.
My next roster will be 2 mornings, 2 afternoons, 2 nights, rest day and then 3 days off. It will not be with Lipservices Australia.
Give me start early, finish late every time. You don't realize how tired the start late finish early roster makes you until you have a week or so off and you notice how much better you feel not living with ongoing low level fatigue.
And as for having extra time off-you sacrifice, ease of shift swapping and being able to do anything meaningful within your shift run.
My next roster will be 2 mornings, 2 afternoons, 2 nights, rest day and then 3 days off. It will not be with Lipservices Australia.
The compulsory O/T is a crock and I wholeheartedly support your opposition to it. It is obvioulsy management trying to cover their ar#e.
The sleep deficit is a problem on any roster that includes a transition to a night shift. What you don't want is someone working twice while coping with it. 25 years ago we were working such a roster. Surely by now there should be something better.
The sleep deficit is a problem on any roster that includes a transition to a night shift. What you don't want is someone working twice while coping with it. 25 years ago we were working such a roster. Surely by now there should be something better.
Sorry, just saw etz's post. Obviously there is something better. Perhaps if is less fatiguing, there are less sick days, and some of the overtime is now not required.
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The compulsory O/T is a crock
Some of us don't accept some of the call-ins because we are just too tired and we know with some of the trivial and punitive reasons to be "stood-down" that if we lower our defences for an instant (eg I'm 80% not 100% alert) we are opening ourselves to risks to livelihood which in turn affects family etc etc.
If we have a string of incidents, we will get fired. If we have a string of incidents because we are tired and not on our A-game is utter stupidity because we will get hung out to dry.
I wholeheartedly support your opposition to it
The sleep deficit is a problem on any roster
To be commanded to work additional overtime, to be reprimanded and disciplined for refusing, to be reprimanded and disciplined for not being contactable is just bizarre (see straw+grasp etc above).
Traffic_Is_Er_Was. Sorry for assuming you worked in Spin City, it was a low and rather caddish accusation and comment on my part.
PS Just wait for the next annual report and try to match the money this mob makes with its recent actions and comments regarding compulsory call ins and match that with the previous comments that we have had an over reliance on overtime. When that happens and if anyone sees a logical connection between it all please advise what you smoked, swallowed, snorted, consumed, skulled etc so we can all also enter that altered state to experience such enlightenment.
Last edited by Bill Woodfull; 14th Aug 2008 at 01:07.
The large stick and no carrot approach is starting to pay off for AsA. In the last few days, the Irish Aviation Authority has interviewed about 27 controllers for positions in their centres. People I thought would never leave are lining up with their passports at the ready (people with 15 years plus experience - people you can't afford to lose). More pesky controllers off the books!
But recruiting will save the day.....oh, hang on, the latest bunch to arrive were told, in their first week, that they will not be starting course for 6 months and they will be simulator pilots in the interim. So another 6 months on trainee wage - about $35,000 p/a - for these poor sods. And they are trying to attract people with 'university qualifications and life/work experience'. Good luck with that!
Just how many does AsA claim they are going to train this year? 100 was it?
Yeah, right.
Thanks, AsA, for nearly killing my passion for aviation and ATC. Glad I'm leaving before you completely rob me of the love for the job I once had.
Sayonara and arigato,
Showa-Cho.
But recruiting will save the day.....oh, hang on, the latest bunch to arrive were told, in their first week, that they will not be starting course for 6 months and they will be simulator pilots in the interim. So another 6 months on trainee wage - about $35,000 p/a - for these poor sods. And they are trying to attract people with 'university qualifications and life/work experience'. Good luck with that!
Just how many does AsA claim they are going to train this year? 100 was it?
Yeah, right.
Thanks, AsA, for nearly killing my passion for aviation and ATC. Glad I'm leaving before you completely rob me of the love for the job I once had.
Sayonara and arigato,
Showa-Cho.
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I think our rosters do "maximise time off" in the main; most believe this is to maximise your recovery. All the available science tells us that most rosters worked in Oz are not the best way to do it.
As for having 4 on 4 off, well hardly. A late start on the first day is very common, but not the norm. A round of golf before work is rare from my read of things.
The squeezing OT into days off is debilitating as in this maximised down time rosters the inherent fatigue is very great, despite what FAID says. It wouldn't be so severe if it were the occasional morning or day shift, but mostly it's lates and nights, the worst for ongoing recovery.
In my experience the biggest obstacle to a reverse cycle roster has been management, as it limits the people available for their precious OT; ie it's harder to squeeze OT in and comply with PORs.
As for Doggo's not being all night, about 12 rosters from my quick examination, out of 30+ rosters that have greater than single staffing on night shifts; most of these rosters have more than one "due traffic", not fatigue; although there are a few (about 5) that appear to have 'breaks' on doggos; but is that unrealistic? It should be the norm to get a break on any shift, but particularly the night shift. It is IFALPA, Civil Air, IFATCA and ICAO policy to not have single person duty, ever.
The problem from a management view point is they are "paying" for effectively dual coverage and only getting single staffing; so it is about the money, not staff welfare. They claim 'making people' work extra night shifts is cruel and worse; but the reality is for everyone who has worked half a night shift instead of a whole night shift long term has a much better outlook on life. Sure there are some that prefer the latter, but the %'s are very low and usually it's people who don't have kids or significant family issues outside of work.
If they introduced 5 on 3 off rostering reverse cycle they might just have a win win, less fatigue, happier work environment and more available OT coverage?
Additionally if the OT rate was more beneficial to staff and thus more costly to management, there would be an instant push to really have full staffing as opposed to minimum or less than minimum staffing which is definitely the norm. Make OT more costly, does two things, give people more incentive to attend, gives management incentive to staff to realistic levels.
At the moment 1 OT a day on average is less costly than one extra staff member (you'd need an extra on every 'shift'). We don't average more than one a day in most groups; if it were reversed where having 3 extra staff was the same cost basis as one OT a day then you watch them get the three extra staff.
Lets not mention the "goodwill" extra staff (realistic minimum's) would bring and the consequential morale boost.
As for having 4 on 4 off, well hardly. A late start on the first day is very common, but not the norm. A round of golf before work is rare from my read of things.
The squeezing OT into days off is debilitating as in this maximised down time rosters the inherent fatigue is very great, despite what FAID says. It wouldn't be so severe if it were the occasional morning or day shift, but mostly it's lates and nights, the worst for ongoing recovery.
In my experience the biggest obstacle to a reverse cycle roster has been management, as it limits the people available for their precious OT; ie it's harder to squeeze OT in and comply with PORs.
As for Doggo's not being all night, about 12 rosters from my quick examination, out of 30+ rosters that have greater than single staffing on night shifts; most of these rosters have more than one "due traffic", not fatigue; although there are a few (about 5) that appear to have 'breaks' on doggos; but is that unrealistic? It should be the norm to get a break on any shift, but particularly the night shift. It is IFALPA, Civil Air, IFATCA and ICAO policy to not have single person duty, ever.
The problem from a management view point is they are "paying" for effectively dual coverage and only getting single staffing; so it is about the money, not staff welfare. They claim 'making people' work extra night shifts is cruel and worse; but the reality is for everyone who has worked half a night shift instead of a whole night shift long term has a much better outlook on life. Sure there are some that prefer the latter, but the %'s are very low and usually it's people who don't have kids or significant family issues outside of work.
If they introduced 5 on 3 off rostering reverse cycle they might just have a win win, less fatigue, happier work environment and more available OT coverage?
Additionally if the OT rate was more beneficial to staff and thus more costly to management, there would be an instant push to really have full staffing as opposed to minimum or less than minimum staffing which is definitely the norm. Make OT more costly, does two things, give people more incentive to attend, gives management incentive to staff to realistic levels.
At the moment 1 OT a day on average is less costly than one extra staff member (you'd need an extra on every 'shift'). We don't average more than one a day in most groups; if it were reversed where having 3 extra staff was the same cost basis as one OT a day then you watch them get the three extra staff.
Lets not mention the "goodwill" extra staff (realistic minimum's) would bring and the consequential morale boost.
Last edited by SM4 Pirate; 14th Aug 2008 at 02:56.
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Have a few 'incidents' or one Airprox because you're not playing your A-game due fatigue and...
...to your career.
Are the HR departments of the IAA, DFS and Serco ME aware of this thread?
Serco Dubai and the IAA have plucked a few from the tree recently and I reckon there are 50 or so more ready and waiting. The 21st of December will be a watershed date in Australian Aviation.
The Royal Commission or The [insert name] Inquiry* into the demise of Australian air navigation following some catastrophic event will be even more remembered.
* Kyeema Inquiry (1938) and Lutana Inquiry (1948) come to mind.
http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/1998/nov/kyeema.pdf
The Lutana Inquiry led to a major review of ATC.
"No branch of the Commonwealth public service has a higher degree of public accountability". - D G Anderson
A branch of the Federal Govt making over a $100 million in annual profit probably wasn't as high a priority back then either.
Sayonara and arigato,
Are the HR departments of the IAA, DFS and Serco ME aware of this thread?
Serco Dubai and the IAA have plucked a few from the tree recently and I reckon there are 50 or so more ready and waiting. The 21st of December will be a watershed date in Australian Aviation.
The Royal Commission or The [insert name] Inquiry* into the demise of Australian air navigation following some catastrophic event will be even more remembered.
* Kyeema Inquiry (1938) and Lutana Inquiry (1948) come to mind.
http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/1998/nov/kyeema.pdf
The Lutana Inquiry led to a major review of ATC.
"No branch of the Commonwealth public service has a higher degree of public accountability". - D G Anderson
A branch of the Federal Govt making over a $100 million in annual profit probably wasn't as high a priority back then either.
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From the outside, this looks like a case of 'management' with fingers in ears, heads in the sand and bums against walls. Hoping like hell that nothing goes awry and that, with a bit of luck, they can scrape through. 'Just hold your nerve guys and we can bluff our way out of this.' Once again, this goes to the sheer idiocy of running a safety organisation on a commercial basis for a commercial return.
Where the hell are the hard-hitting investigative journalists, willing to do the research and ask the right questions? Maybe those animals don't exist anymore.
Where the hell are the hard-hitting investigative journalists, willing to do the research and ask the right questions? Maybe those animals don't exist anymore.
Last edited by Howabout; 14th Aug 2008 at 05:23. Reason: add content
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More light reading...
Guilty air traffic controllers walk free after 71 die in crash - Times Online
2001 Japan Airlines mid-air incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1976 Zagreb mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The No 1 in midairs:
1996 Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The No 1 in RWY:
Tenerife disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2001 Japan Airlines mid-air incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1976 Zagreb mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The No 1 in midairs:
1996 Charkhi Dadri mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The No 1 in RWY:
Tenerife disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia