AirservicesAustralia wants Overtime to be compulsory
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unfortunately crikey has stopped hosting the AsA proposal, but in case there are journos who downloaded it for future reference, I also wanted to point out that AsA is using statistics in way that works for them, rather than reflecting a more accurate picture.
AsA says that overall, in the past 12 months, ATC's only needed to work 1.1 extra shift a month (averaged across 9 groups ranging from 0.8 to 1.5)
As an aside - the period used included the last 6 months of 2007, BEFORE 107 CONTROLLERS WERE "PROMOTED" TO ALMS, and 6 months after we no longer had those people to work roster lines and overtime. No doubt that helped the averages.
As they say, there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.
Those 9 SDL (Service Delivery Line) groups AsA refer to have different numbers of ATC sector groupings that comprise them. Some of these groups are fully staffed ( - AsA says they are, anyway, in their shameful TIBA notification emails that we are not supposed to know about - ) and some groups are not fully staffed. Not even close.
For example, one particular group only has their roster published 3 weeks in advance, and the lastest 3 week period has THIRTY SHIFTS blank - before anyone goes sick!
So the reason I'm getting upset about this push for compulsory overtime is that some people will have to do none, and other poor sods will be doing at least 2 extra a month, and probably more.
AsA says that overall, in the past 12 months, ATC's only needed to work 1.1 extra shift a month (averaged across 9 groups ranging from 0.8 to 1.5)
As an aside - the period used included the last 6 months of 2007, BEFORE 107 CONTROLLERS WERE "PROMOTED" TO ALMS, and 6 months after we no longer had those people to work roster lines and overtime. No doubt that helped the averages.
As they say, there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics.
Those 9 SDL (Service Delivery Line) groups AsA refer to have different numbers of ATC sector groupings that comprise them. Some of these groups are fully staffed ( - AsA says they are, anyway, in their shameful TIBA notification emails that we are not supposed to know about - ) and some groups are not fully staffed. Not even close.
For example, one particular group only has their roster published 3 weeks in advance, and the lastest 3 week period has THIRTY SHIFTS blank - before anyone goes sick!
So the reason I'm getting upset about this push for compulsory overtime is that some people will have to do none, and other poor sods will be doing at least 2 extra a month, and probably more.
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I'd put a scenario to the controllers and I don't think it's unrealistic.
Let's say a controller was managing traffic and made an error, due fatigue or some other reason, which resulted in two aircraft narrowly missing - and I may have been SLF on one of those.
My understanding is that the controller involved would be stood down, counselled and then, re-trained/re-qualified after an investigation.
The huge problem that I have is that in the same piece of airspace, a week, a month, a year later, another controller commits the same error, but the outcome is not one of a miss.
The second guy is then on the rack, having made an identical error, but is then the subject of media scrutiny. I imagine that there'd be TV cables all over his lawn, his kids would be harrassed at school once the 'facts' came out, his wife would be abused and he'd be subject to death threats from the nutters. The only recourse would be going to the library and 'doing the right thing Carruthers.'
That's the problem I have with your current predicament - someone (potentially) is going to be a sacrificial lamb if the fertilizer hits the fan.
Let's say a controller was managing traffic and made an error, due fatigue or some other reason, which resulted in two aircraft narrowly missing - and I may have been SLF on one of those.
My understanding is that the controller involved would be stood down, counselled and then, re-trained/re-qualified after an investigation.
The huge problem that I have is that in the same piece of airspace, a week, a month, a year later, another controller commits the same error, but the outcome is not one of a miss.
The second guy is then on the rack, having made an identical error, but is then the subject of media scrutiny. I imagine that there'd be TV cables all over his lawn, his kids would be harrassed at school once the 'facts' came out, his wife would be abused and he'd be subject to death threats from the nutters. The only recourse would be going to the library and 'doing the right thing Carruthers.'
That's the problem I have with your current predicament - someone (potentially) is going to be a sacrificial lamb if the fertilizer hits the fan.
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Let's make sure one thing is clear here, AsA claims staffing issues will be under control in a month. If this is true why do they need this? The current CA has a provision for the rostering of Stand By shifts. If staffing is going to be resolved in a month they can exercise this clause. Unless of course TFN is just spinning more BS and staffing won't be fixed in a month.
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It's true. But Oz could go one better than here if they adopted the same roster as the Middle East... because they would only have to do one doggo instead of two per cycle... rostering Nirvana... locked in by contract, can't be amended, includes Grey Days which remove the requirement for overtime.
You can plan your life twelve months in advance and live it.
You can plan your life twelve months in advance and live it.
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Most of the 'outside of the agreement' rosters are small additions to hours. My roster has 15 mins tacked onto an 8 hour shift here and there to acquit the required time over the roster's period. I'd rather be rostered for the 15 mins a couple of times a week than work a whole extra shift somewhere.
Cheers,
NFR.
Cheers,
NFR.
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AnSA: Every single Aussie who has come to the Middle East and worked the 2 mornings, 2 afternoons, 2 nights, sleep day, 3 days off has vowed never to go back to the EAMN killer.
but then AsA would need even more staff.
as it stands, on average we poor aussies work 8 shifts over ten days.
While we're discussing things that are a good idea in the name of saftey, does the general public know some ASP's overseas have two sets of eyes watching the airspace instead of just one person?
I reckon there's a good safety case for DOUBLING the number of controller's right there.
but again, there's bugger all chance of management agreeing to that. (or if they did, they'd just want us to work 4 OT's a month instead of 2
)
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Middle East roster cycle = 219 shifts rostered per year, including occasional Grey Evenings (potential to be called in for a doggo)... no overtime.
Australian, 4 on - 2 off, roster = 244 shifts rostered per year... plus rostered overtime shifts... plus phoned on your rostered days off to attend for additional duty.
This is the best opportunity you will ever have to stop the rot of rostering in ATC in Australia.
Change your conditions of service for the better... change your life for the better...
Australian, 4 on - 2 off, roster = 244 shifts rostered per year... plus rostered overtime shifts... plus phoned on your rostered days off to attend for additional duty.
This is the best opportunity you will ever have to stop the rot of rostering in ATC in Australia.
Change your conditions of service for the better... change your life for the better...
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Quokka you work too much.
On average 180 shifts per year
2M2A2NSOOO, No tax, Simple equation, come play in the Sandpit, before all the buckets and spades are taken.
2M2A2NSOOO, No tax, Simple equation, come play in the Sandpit, before all the buckets and spades are taken.
Last edited by Rule3; 15th Aug 2008 at 11:26. Reason: Omission
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Middle East roster cycle = 219 shifts rostered per year, including occasional Grey Evenings (potential to be called in for a doggo)... no overtime.
Australian, 4 on - 2 off, roster = 244 shifts rostered per year... plus rostered overtime shifts... plus phoned on your rostered days off to attend for additional duty.
Australian, 4 on - 2 off, roster = 244 shifts rostered per year... plus rostered overtime shifts... plus phoned on your rostered days off to attend for additional duty.
here in Oz, it only gets you 10.
And feedback from the so-called negotiation meeting yesterday indicates that AsA is still pushing for obligatory overtime, reduced sick leave, and the ability to roster up to 10 hour shifts
Last edited by undervaluedATC; 15th Aug 2008 at 20:56. Reason: correction - cut and paste mistake from
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Off topic but we (UAE Serco) get 56 calendar days per calendar year, so 10 rec leave days will get you 13 days off or if the SATCO is nice like we got now pukker, suck suck kiss kiss ..I got 15 days for 10 rec leave days (by moving your cycle forward by 2 days).
It isn't all roses the unit was on a 6/3 6/3 6/1 cycle when I first got here 3 years ago when they were very short of staff.
With regards to compulsory o/t I was guilty of accepting every o/t I could get (315hrs over 18 months) which cost me my 2nd marriage and in the long run ironically lead me here to the ME where I enjoy better shift conditions.
My dad worked 21 days straight in the early eighties (he took every o/t he could get) and if it weren't for our team mates parents my brother and I would have never made it to any of our U17's RDFL footy away games that season.
It isn't all roses the unit was on a 6/3 6/3 6/1 cycle when I first got here 3 years ago when they were very short of staff.
With regards to compulsory o/t I was guilty of accepting every o/t I could get (315hrs over 18 months) which cost me my 2nd marriage and in the long run ironically lead me here to the ME where I enjoy better shift conditions.
My dad worked 21 days straight in the early eighties (he took every o/t he could get) and if it weren't for our team mates parents my brother and I would have never made it to any of our U17's RDFL footy away games that season.
Last edited by Funk; 15th Aug 2008 at 12:19.
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Yes, definitely work too much... but a bucket of Leave coming my way soon...
Recreational Leave intentionally left out of the equation... roster template calculation only.
With Recreation Leave it's something like this...
I'll use the Middle East worst case scenario of 48 calendar days Leave in the Oman contract...
Actual shifts worked, including leave:
Middle East 171 shifts pa. (if leave is taken in fortnightly blocks)
Australia 216 shifts plus rostered overtime plus additional duty on days off.
Recreational Leave intentionally left out of the equation... roster template calculation only.
With Recreation Leave it's something like this...
I'll use the Middle East worst case scenario of 48 calendar days Leave in the Oman contract...
Actual shifts worked, including leave:
Middle East 171 shifts pa. (if leave is taken in fortnightly blocks)
Australia 216 shifts plus rostered overtime plus additional duty on days off.
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ANSA,
No one will go to the sand without due diligence.
People ARE hitting the bricks for Ireland and your next round of pay increases will see another wave (as opposed to your current trickle).
The mandarins at Spin City talk of the woes of QF and we have an oil tracker on our avnet at work (don't laugh I'm serious).
Al Maktoum my friend. The idiots at Spin City would not know who, what or what it will entail.
You will need Tower, Approach and Enroute bods like I would say 150+.
They have no idea.
No one will go to the sand without due diligence.
People ARE hitting the bricks for Ireland and your next round of pay increases will see another wave (as opposed to your current trickle).
The mandarins at Spin City talk of the woes of QF and we have an oil tracker on our avnet at work (don't laugh I'm serious).
Al Maktoum my friend. The idiots at Spin City would not know who, what or what it will entail.
You will need Tower, Approach and Enroute bods like I would say 150+.
They have no idea.
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Well Gentlemen,
I am not sure whether to curse you all or thank you. Having followed the various threads on PPrune relating to working in Oz for AsA I have decided to WITHDRAW my application.
I am one of those ex Oz controllers who defected many years ago to try my lot overseas. Last year, after much consideration, I decided that for family reasons it might be time to return home. I applied for a position in the "Global Search for ATC's" and was called for an interview.
Unfortunately 20+ years Australian ATC experience followed by more years in the ME and Far East were apparently insufficient to gain employment in the organisation and I was told that I was not wanted - I did query them at the intervew about my age but was told that age was not a barrier to re-employment.
Since then I have been if not bombarded, then certainly showered, with emails asking me to re-apply, with varying explanations as to why i should.
Being a sucker for punishment I did reapply and when filling out the application decided that, if I was to go back, I only wanted to work in one of the more desireable locations in Australia - No! not Brisbane or Mel Centres
I did not expect a reply given my rather unreasonable (to some) request but lo and behold I did get a reply along with a request for evidence of residency etc.
After much consideration of my position and reading of these forums i have come to 2 conclusions.
1) I do not want to jump from the QE3 onto the Titanic.
2) I do not believe that AsA would honour any location offer made to entice me, once I had signed on the dotted line.
One point I would like to make to you all is this.
Whilst it is well and good that the information relating to this situation is discussed and made available to all, it can be self defeating. You guys are working your ar5e5 off and desperate to get more staff to join AsA to provide eventual relief to the staff situation but the constant complaining and running down of your employer and its disorganisation and bad management don't exactly provide a rosy picture to anybody contemplating the leap.
Good Luck guys. It increasingly looks like you are going to need it.
KF
Bring back DCA
I am not sure whether to curse you all or thank you. Having followed the various threads on PPrune relating to working in Oz for AsA I have decided to WITHDRAW my application.
I am one of those ex Oz controllers who defected many years ago to try my lot overseas. Last year, after much consideration, I decided that for family reasons it might be time to return home. I applied for a position in the "Global Search for ATC's" and was called for an interview.
Unfortunately 20+ years Australian ATC experience followed by more years in the ME and Far East were apparently insufficient to gain employment in the organisation and I was told that I was not wanted - I did query them at the intervew about my age but was told that age was not a barrier to re-employment.
Since then I have been if not bombarded, then certainly showered, with emails asking me to re-apply, with varying explanations as to why i should.
Being a sucker for punishment I did reapply and when filling out the application decided that, if I was to go back, I only wanted to work in one of the more desireable locations in Australia - No! not Brisbane or Mel Centres
I did not expect a reply given my rather unreasonable (to some) request but lo and behold I did get a reply along with a request for evidence of residency etc.
After much consideration of my position and reading of these forums i have come to 2 conclusions.
1) I do not want to jump from the QE3 onto the Titanic.
2) I do not believe that AsA would honour any location offer made to entice me, once I had signed on the dotted line.
One point I would like to make to you all is this.
Whilst it is well and good that the information relating to this situation is discussed and made available to all, it can be self defeating. You guys are working your ar5e5 off and desperate to get more staff to join AsA to provide eventual relief to the staff situation but the constant complaining and running down of your employer and its disorganisation and bad management don't exactly provide a rosy picture to anybody contemplating the leap.
Good Luck guys. It increasingly looks like you are going to need it.
KF
Bring back DCA
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One point I would like to make to you all is this.
Whilst it is well and good that the information relating to this situation is discussed and made available to all, it can be self defeating. You guys are working your ar5e5 off and desperate to get more staff to join AsA to provide eventual relief to the staff situation but the constant complaining and running down of your employer and its disorganisation and bad management don't exactly provide a rosy picture to anybody contemplating the leap.
Whilst it is well and good that the information relating to this situation is discussed and made available to all, it can be self defeating. You guys are working your ar5e5 off and desperate to get more staff to join AsA to provide eventual relief to the staff situation but the constant complaining and running down of your employer and its disorganisation and bad management don't exactly provide a rosy picture to anybody contemplating the leap.
This is not complaining.
This protesting against the proposal that overtime becomes compulsory.
Journos have happily quoted an anonymous post from more than 12 months ago that led to the "renegade" assumption. I just thought maybe they might like some real information.
And when the CEO of the company publicly calls us:
"renegades" and/or "shirkers";
and internally infers that we are not "decent or professional" if we do not accept overtime....
well, I don't think I'm damaging our reputation as much as some.
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If there IS anyone reading this thread thinking of an ATC career, then I offer you my humble 2 cents worth.
The JOB is fantastic. Very rewarding, challenging and a great sense of camaraderie. Each day is different and provides a constantly changing and fluid set of circumstances for you to "control". That is the good.
The bad is that we have arguably the worst senior management in Australia. It is unbelievable the lengths they go to crush, trample and generally piss off their work force. Now before we all get carried away, of course I am generalising, but only just.
Speak to any controller working for Lipservices and they will more than likely tell you that the love of the job is immense. And we are all constantly dumbfounded that they are unable to engage the staff and foster what should be the worlds greatest job.
We SHOULD love the company. They SHOULD realise the asset they have in their staff and look after them. It is not rocket surgery. Look after your staff, they look after your customers and your shareholders are happy.
Best recent example is the CEO of Air NZ Rob Fyfe who turned morale around by focusing on staff and not treating them as the enemy at every possible opportunity.
Now, hopefully that will give you an insight as to why me - and plenty of people like me - are actively seeking employment overseas. Even if the conditions and mgt are EXACTLY the same, at least you will being paid closer to your worth.
Joe Public needs to understand that the impending retirements with the older generation (who are better off $ wise by retiring at 50) and the disenchantment of the newer staff is going to leave a big hole in Australian Aviation in general. The older crowd are the keepers of the experience and the skills, the newer, younger ones wont put up with the sh#t.
OK, now run off and put in your application. We need you.
The JOB is fantastic. Very rewarding, challenging and a great sense of camaraderie. Each day is different and provides a constantly changing and fluid set of circumstances for you to "control". That is the good.
The bad is that we have arguably the worst senior management in Australia. It is unbelievable the lengths they go to crush, trample and generally piss off their work force. Now before we all get carried away, of course I am generalising, but only just.
Speak to any controller working for Lipservices and they will more than likely tell you that the love of the job is immense. And we are all constantly dumbfounded that they are unable to engage the staff and foster what should be the worlds greatest job.
We SHOULD love the company. They SHOULD realise the asset they have in their staff and look after them. It is not rocket surgery. Look after your staff, they look after your customers and your shareholders are happy.
Best recent example is the CEO of Air NZ Rob Fyfe who turned morale around by focusing on staff and not treating them as the enemy at every possible opportunity.
Now, hopefully that will give you an insight as to why me - and plenty of people like me - are actively seeking employment overseas. Even if the conditions and mgt are EXACTLY the same, at least you will being paid closer to your worth.
Joe Public needs to understand that the impending retirements with the older generation (who are better off $ wise by retiring at 50) and the disenchantment of the newer staff is going to leave a big hole in Australian Aviation in general. The older crowd are the keepers of the experience and the skills, the newer, younger ones wont put up with the sh#t.
OK, now run off and put in your application. We need you.
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The goss from ML centre is, they are so short staffed that people are doing simulator Canberra Approach training without instructors.
I'm wondering if they get to write their own daily debriefing? "Geez, I did well today"
I'm wondering if they get to write their own daily debriefing? "Geez, I did well today"
Other goss
Max 1,
Like your style! Hey that's a sneaky way to get rid of the SSOs, what with no instructor you could just pretend your heard pilot responses!!
Apparently they are so short staffed down south that there are two realities....
1/. Rostered training in the ML SIM
2/. Actual training in the ML SIM!!!!
With so much rostered no one can get a seat except when it comes down to actually happening, oh dear cancelled again!
Cleaner has to brush the tumbleweeds away each evening!
Wonder if the new supersim from Thales has been sprayed against cobwebs!!
Like your style! Hey that's a sneaky way to get rid of the SSOs, what with no instructor you could just pretend your heard pilot responses!!
Apparently they are so short staffed down south that there are two realities....
1/. Rostered training in the ML SIM
2/. Actual training in the ML SIM!!!!
With so much rostered no one can get a seat except when it comes down to actually happening, oh dear cancelled again!
Cleaner has to brush the tumbleweeds away each evening!
Wonder if the new supersim from Thales has been sprayed against cobwebs!!
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When you are training in "live" traffic:
OJTI (spraying coffee): Who [expletive] well told you you could do that? Who said that you could give an aircraft THAT requirement (muttering something about kick someone's something)!!
Trainee: Errrr I taught myself and it worked OK in the sim...
OJTI (spraying coffee): Who [expletive] well told you you could do that? Who said that you could give an aircraft THAT requirement (muttering something about kick someone's something)!!
Trainee: Errrr I taught myself and it worked OK in the sim...
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The reason behind starting this thread is not going away.
from www.civilair.asn.au/joomla (my bolding for emphasis)
AIRSERVICES SEEKS MANDATORY OVERTIME PROVISIONS
Press Release
October 13, 2008
AIRSERVICES SEEKS MANDATORY OVERTIME PROVISIONS
A primary plank of Labor’s successful Federal election campaign platform was based on the premise that Workchoices removed basic rights of employees.
In an eerie echo of a nightmare scenario portrayed by the ACTU last year, Airservices Australia is today seeking that Air Traffic Controllers be compelled to work on days off whenever required by their management.
Air Traffic Controllers agree that reasonable overtime should be worked in accordance with the provisions agreed by their employer and in common with every other workplace in Australia. These provisions provide checks and balances that support the safety and health of the individual whilst recognising that our families are important. The current agreement states specifically:
We expect that you will work a reasonable amount of additional hours if the requirement becomes necessary. You may choose not to work additional hours in circumstances where the working of such hours would result in you working hours which are unreasonable after consideration of:
(a) Any risk to your health and safety;
(b) Your personal circumstances including any family responsibilities;
(c) The needs of the workplace;
(d) The notice given by us and by you of your intention to choose not to work the additional hours; and
(e) Any other relevant matter.
The current agreement implicitly recognises that employees may choose not to work. Airservices seeks to amend this such that the sole arbiter of whether a refusal to work overtime is “reasonable” rests with Airservices management. Such a change would effectively put ATCs on call for duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The move, if successful, places Air Traffic Controllers in a position of indentured servitude at the beck and call of their employer.
Further, the agreed wording of the current agreement implies that the requirement will not always be necessary. Already the institutionalised use of overtime to keep a failing system afloat has controllers near breaking point. Almost every day off is interrupted by multiple calls to come to work. Airservices is publicly telling media that there is now no shortage of Air Traffic Controllers. This is simply a lie.
Morale amongst Air Traffic Controllers is at an all time low. Many have applied for, and won, jobs overseas. Increasing numbers are taking up these positions simply to get away from the caustic working relationship that Airservices seems to be deliberately developing as an industrial tactic. We’ve all seen the humorous poster “Beatings will continue until morale improves.” Welcome to Air Traffic Control in Australia.
Fatigue and stress related illnesses are on the increase. Airservices Australia has recently had to pay increased worker’s compensation insurance premiums due to increased claims. Controllers do their very best to support the travelling public. You are not informed of the significant overtime worked and short notice changes to rosters that are being accommodated across Australia on a daily basis. What you are seeing is a desperate employer constantly blaming its staff for the long term neglect of a system critical to the safety of the Australian public.
Robert Mason
President, Civil Air
October 13, 2008
Media enquiries should be directed to: Robert Mason, President 0403 153 400; or
Peter McGuane, Executive Secretary 0412 538 336
from www.civilair.asn.au/joomla (my bolding for emphasis)
AIRSERVICES SEEKS MANDATORY OVERTIME PROVISIONS
Press Release
October 13, 2008
AIRSERVICES SEEKS MANDATORY OVERTIME PROVISIONS
A primary plank of Labor’s successful Federal election campaign platform was based on the premise that Workchoices removed basic rights of employees.
In an eerie echo of a nightmare scenario portrayed by the ACTU last year, Airservices Australia is today seeking that Air Traffic Controllers be compelled to work on days off whenever required by their management.
Air Traffic Controllers agree that reasonable overtime should be worked in accordance with the provisions agreed by their employer and in common with every other workplace in Australia. These provisions provide checks and balances that support the safety and health of the individual whilst recognising that our families are important. The current agreement states specifically:
We expect that you will work a reasonable amount of additional hours if the requirement becomes necessary. You may choose not to work additional hours in circumstances where the working of such hours would result in you working hours which are unreasonable after consideration of:
(a) Any risk to your health and safety;
(b) Your personal circumstances including any family responsibilities;
(c) The needs of the workplace;
(d) The notice given by us and by you of your intention to choose not to work the additional hours; and
(e) Any other relevant matter.
The current agreement implicitly recognises that employees may choose not to work. Airservices seeks to amend this such that the sole arbiter of whether a refusal to work overtime is “reasonable” rests with Airservices management. Such a change would effectively put ATCs on call for duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The move, if successful, places Air Traffic Controllers in a position of indentured servitude at the beck and call of their employer.
Further, the agreed wording of the current agreement implies that the requirement will not always be necessary. Already the institutionalised use of overtime to keep a failing system afloat has controllers near breaking point. Almost every day off is interrupted by multiple calls to come to work. Airservices is publicly telling media that there is now no shortage of Air Traffic Controllers. This is simply a lie.
Morale amongst Air Traffic Controllers is at an all time low. Many have applied for, and won, jobs overseas. Increasing numbers are taking up these positions simply to get away from the caustic working relationship that Airservices seems to be deliberately developing as an industrial tactic. We’ve all seen the humorous poster “Beatings will continue until morale improves.” Welcome to Air Traffic Control in Australia.
Fatigue and stress related illnesses are on the increase. Airservices Australia has recently had to pay increased worker’s compensation insurance premiums due to increased claims. Controllers do their very best to support the travelling public. You are not informed of the significant overtime worked and short notice changes to rosters that are being accommodated across Australia on a daily basis. What you are seeing is a desperate employer constantly blaming its staff for the long term neglect of a system critical to the safety of the Australian public.
Robert Mason
President, Civil Air
October 13, 2008
Media enquiries should be directed to: Robert Mason, President 0403 153 400; or
Peter McGuane, Executive Secretary 0412 538 336