Joyce the new CEO of Qantas
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this is an extract from the Herald Sun.
and:
Once again, AIPA is barely concealing the fact that 787 flying should be started by Qantas mainline.
Jetstar pilots should be under no allusion as to the intentions of the AIPA - and it has nothing to do with a mutual "love in".
More like a lube free shafting.
...........AIPA had been arguing it would be good financial sense for the 787 to start service with the higher-yielding Qantas rather than the low-cost offshoot Jetstar ......
However, he (Ian Woods) believed the enterprise agreement had secured the future of Qantas pilots as operators of the Boeing 787.
Jetstar pilots should be under no allusion as to the intentions of the AIPA - and it has nothing to do with a mutual "love in".
More like a lube free shafting.
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So if JQ wanted, for all the very best of reasons, to hire DEC 777 Captains and F/Os next year to provide a chunk of the crew for the initial delivery group of 15 787s', AIPA wouldn't let them?
As for me, your humble servant Genex.....I have no desire to ever be on a QF seniority list and if I were ever lucky enough to fly a 787 I'd rather be trained by an experienced 777 training captain than a warmed over Qantas 767 driver.
However, the contingency is, as they say, an unlikely one. I am happily ensconced in my garden wondering whether to bother putting a new oil seal on my beloved rotary hoe.
Out of interest....given the published and anecdotal pay rates for QF S/Os, would they really want to move over to JQ? I am assuming that S/O time in any case wouldn't count as actual experience to get you directly into the left hand seat of a 320 and certainly not a 787.
I'd be guessing that JQ would want to see a QF MOU S/O (how about that for a bunch of acronyms?) put through his/her paces for 1500 hrs in the right seat of a 320 before letting them have any further career progression at all. Conceivably some 767 F/Os might want Cruise Captain jobs on the JQ 787 which would lead in time to 320 commands then eventually back to the JQ 787 left seat, years and years before they could ever get that job in QF mainline, if and when they ever get some 787s. But not, though, if the AIPA GOL list were ever to be implemented.
Back to the hoe.
As for me, your humble servant Genex.....I have no desire to ever be on a QF seniority list and if I were ever lucky enough to fly a 787 I'd rather be trained by an experienced 777 training captain than a warmed over Qantas 767 driver.
However, the contingency is, as they say, an unlikely one. I am happily ensconced in my garden wondering whether to bother putting a new oil seal on my beloved rotary hoe.
Out of interest....given the published and anecdotal pay rates for QF S/Os, would they really want to move over to JQ? I am assuming that S/O time in any case wouldn't count as actual experience to get you directly into the left hand seat of a 320 and certainly not a 787.
I'd be guessing that JQ would want to see a QF MOU S/O (how about that for a bunch of acronyms?) put through his/her paces for 1500 hrs in the right seat of a 320 before letting them have any further career progression at all. Conceivably some 767 F/Os might want Cruise Captain jobs on the JQ 787 which would lead in time to 320 commands then eventually back to the JQ 787 left seat, years and years before they could ever get that job in QF mainline, if and when they ever get some 787s. But not, though, if the AIPA GOL list were ever to be implemented.
Back to the hoe.
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Genex.....
Do you ever work?
All you do is stir the pot with comparatively nonsensical assertions.
For an outsider you seem to have opinions on everyhthing.
Opinions seemingly based on information you glean from the Sydney daily telegraph.
Was that a "Skanky Hoe"you were getting back to?
All you do is stir the pot with comparatively nonsensical assertions.
For an outsider you seem to have opinions on everyhthing.
Opinions seemingly based on information you glean from the Sydney daily telegraph.
Was that a "Skanky Hoe"you were getting back to?
Nunc est bibendum
Ah Led. I knew you'd be along to take a poorly worded and out of context media statement and use it as an excuse to continue to expand that chip that resides firmly on your shoulder.
For the record, EBA8 states that it covers the flying of 787s in Qantas livery. It secures us as 'operators of the 787'. Anyone without a chip on their shoulder and some basic comprehension skills should be able to realise that this doesn't necessarily mean that we'd be operators of all of them. J* still get to crew their aircraft.
Further, if you'd read into other discussions on these forums over the past few weeks there has been a number of contributors- myself included- who have discussed the wisdom of persisting with a tired and fuel thirsty domestic product in the 767 for the next five to six years when J* international is already flogging around on (supposedly) efficient A330s. It's no secret. Besides, I thought that you were previously of the mantra that the assets should go to where they get the best return? Surely replacing the 767 domestically is going to get a far better return than flogging the 787 on low cost 'softening' (Dixon's words) international routes. So surely AIPA is actually talking in the shareholders best interests with this?
Genex, if QF felt it needed that experience then they have ways of doing it. That said, I question whether or not it's needed. You can't tell me that between QF and J* that they don't have the experience needed to bring in a new type such as the 787? Seriously? QF has a truck load of experience on Boeing twins, ETOPS operations, boeing aircraft, etc. The flight instrumentation set up on the 787 is similar to the 744 and the systems are similarly set up to the 767. I've seen the panel diagrams for the 787 and they are broadly consistent with both the 767 and the 744. Further QF does have recent history of bringing in DEC for an identified need.
This would make your post ignorant at best.
Some possibly would in order to get the promotion....particulary if they've not been in QF too long and want the window seat.
So time spent in GA and then in the back and front seat of a 744/A330A380 isn't doesn't count as 'experience' but someone coming from GA straight into the right hand seat of an A320 is OK for J*? You're seriously deluded!
You may be going back to the hoe but I suspect that you really live under a bridge like most trolls.
For the record, EBA8 states that it covers the flying of 787s in Qantas livery. It secures us as 'operators of the 787'. Anyone without a chip on their shoulder and some basic comprehension skills should be able to realise that this doesn't necessarily mean that we'd be operators of all of them. J* still get to crew their aircraft.
Further, if you'd read into other discussions on these forums over the past few weeks there has been a number of contributors- myself included- who have discussed the wisdom of persisting with a tired and fuel thirsty domestic product in the 767 for the next five to six years when J* international is already flogging around on (supposedly) efficient A330s. It's no secret. Besides, I thought that you were previously of the mantra that the assets should go to where they get the best return? Surely replacing the 767 domestically is going to get a far better return than flogging the 787 on low cost 'softening' (Dixon's words) international routes. So surely AIPA is actually talking in the shareholders best interests with this?
Genex, if QF felt it needed that experience then they have ways of doing it. That said, I question whether or not it's needed. You can't tell me that between QF and J* that they don't have the experience needed to bring in a new type such as the 787? Seriously? QF has a truck load of experience on Boeing twins, ETOPS operations, boeing aircraft, etc. The flight instrumentation set up on the 787 is similar to the 744 and the systems are similarly set up to the 767. I've seen the panel diagrams for the 787 and they are broadly consistent with both the 767 and the 744. Further QF does have recent history of bringing in DEC for an identified need.
This would make your post ignorant at best.
Out of interest....given the published and anecdotal pay rates for QF S/Os, would they really want to move over to JQ?
I am assuming that S/O time in any case wouldn't count as actual experience to get you directly into the left hand seat of a 320 and certainly not a 787.
You may be going back to the hoe but I suspect that you really live under a bridge like most trolls.
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Surely replacing the 767 domestically is going to get a far better return than flogging the 787 on low cost 'softening' (Dixon's words) international routes. So surely AIPA is actually talking in the shareholders best interests with this?
I thnk this whole thing has much more to do with global issues in the context of getting the overall Qantas product down to a much lower cost base, rather than specific details of operating costs. This cost move is all the more imperative given the rising cost of Jet Fuel and the lack of hedging after 2009.
So I believe Qantas mainline in the future will be stripped of as much of the high cost components as possible, and these elements will be moved into the so called "low cost" vehicle.
Every one jokes about the fact that the Jetstar aircraft will be repainted in QF colours once this transformation is complete - but is it really a joke ?
I am not going to get involved in the AIPA or Jetstar pilot union discussions, just to say that I'm sure there are people on both sides who have very vested interests in the future as they see it.
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The Price of Fuel
The price of fuel is coming off historical highs as the speculators leave and demand softens.
All this conversation about costs will become irrelevant if fuel continues its slide and breaks through $100/barrell.
Qantas manegement have used every instance of drama over the last ten years to drive down costs while still making greater profits and paying more bonuses to Execs.
While the LC model was necessary for the domestic market it has also been used as a weapon to frighten mainline( across all departments)when negotiating EBAs.
All this nonsense about Jet* being a global force is vacuous nonsense.Look at its network and fleet size....puny.
Harbison makes this stuff up after 2 bottles of "76 Grange supplied by his good friends at Qantas.
Look at the foreseeable global airline picture and it becomess abundantly clear that there will some real opportunities for those that are cashed up and are capable of providing a premium product
All this conversation about costs will become irrelevant if fuel continues its slide and breaks through $100/barrell.
Qantas manegement have used every instance of drama over the last ten years to drive down costs while still making greater profits and paying more bonuses to Execs.
While the LC model was necessary for the domestic market it has also been used as a weapon to frighten mainline( across all departments)when negotiating EBAs.
All this nonsense about Jet* being a global force is vacuous nonsense.Look at its network and fleet size....puny.
Harbison makes this stuff up after 2 bottles of "76 Grange supplied by his good friends at Qantas.
Look at the foreseeable global airline picture and it becomess abundantly clear that there will some real opportunities for those that are cashed up and are capable of providing a premium product
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Cash and Product
Qantas is cashed up but its current product is rubbish.
The brand has been trashed and the emotional connection with travellers(particulalry in Australia) has been irreversably severed.
There is another thread somewhere on PPrune where this has been discussed at length.
The trashing of the brand has been deliberate IMHO.
The brand has been trashed and the emotional connection with travellers(particulalry in Australia) has been irreversably severed.
There is another thread somewhere on PPrune where this has been discussed at length.
The trashing of the brand has been deliberate IMHO.
How do you get 2500+ mainline pilots onto jetstar conditions. You don't, well not very quickly. They want to pressure the mainline which is their job. QF mainline has five times the number of J* pilots. Much too valuable a resource to lose. All the scrambling of J* will get this and that ( like all the 787s) at the expense of the QF is rot. Where wil they get the drivers from?
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Regional Pilots
Hi Keg,
In your grand plan were do the Regional Pilots sit, they work for a wholly owned subsidiary just like J*, is it a datal list??? Do you rule a line accross the seniority lists of Qantas Mainline, Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.
In your grand plan were do the Regional Pilots sit, they work for a wholly owned subsidiary just like J*, is it a datal list??? Do you rule a line accross the seniority lists of Qantas Mainline, Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.
Nunc est bibendum
newsensation (great song by INXS by the way).
I think I addressed that on the previous page.
Does that answer the question?
It means that a Dash 8 skipper who joined in 1992 would get the opportunity to bid for a J* 787 command before me. They'd be trumped by the QF F/O who joined in 91. They'd all be trumped by the current J* F/O who joined in 2007.....or whatever date we pick to start the GOL. To be fair that date should be sometime in the future so that current crew aren't adversely affected.
I think I addressed that on the previous page.
So the way to solve the 'group opportunity list' is to quarantine your own flying first and then open it up to the wider group after all your current crew have had the opportunity to bid for it. Current regional guys and gals get first crack at regional commands. They get access to mainline commands on datal seniority after all current mainline crew have passed it up. However if a J* command came up then that goes datal after all J* crew have passed it up. Anyone who joins after a particular date is pure datal seniority no matter where you start your flying career in the group.
It means that a Dash 8 skipper who joined in 1992 would get the opportunity to bid for a J* 787 command before me. They'd be trumped by the QF F/O who joined in 91. They'd all be trumped by the current J* F/O who joined in 2007.....or whatever date we pick to start the GOL. To be fair that date should be sometime in the future so that current crew aren't adversely affected.
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Why should flying a 787 be all that hard? None of the others are! All this crap about a 767/777, Dash 8 or anything else is nonsense. They all fly pretty much the same way once you get 25/50 hours at the helm and about a dozen landings in.
Nunc est bibendum
I think it's only genex that suggested that the 787 was so hard that it required previous 777 experience in order to introduce it! The group opportunity list has nothing to do with what experience you need to fly various types, just what you want to bid for.
The group opportunity list has nothing to do with what experience you need to fly various types, just what you want to bid for.
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Gooday KEG
Been watching this from the sidelines and can't help myself....... you know the story from elsewhere, but given another 18 landings on the 767 I might almost come up to scratch hey!!!!
OK.... you have had ya chuckle (
) now its back to your story......
J
Been watching this from the sidelines and can't help myself....... you know the story from elsewhere, but given another 18 landings on the 767 I might almost come up to scratch hey!!!!
OK.... you have had ya chuckle (
) now its back to your story......J
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What a bunch of pessimists, give the bloke a chance it might not be as painful as you think. No need to take in laundry just yet, he is a determined little bastard, and will probably want to run things his way, and stuff Dixon once he gets his hand on the helm, at least he has been known to actually speak to tech and cabin crew, rather than Dixon who would prefer to run barefoot thru a paddock full of bulls%it, before even looking at you.
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Remember what those American Airlines pilots used to say about Robert Crandall? They said he was, "An ass-hole, but at least he's ours!"
He could be a total pain to the Washington folk and fought everything at the capitol. When he left American Airlines; the airline suffered almost immediately.
This Joyce bloke might be just what you need to whip it all back into shape.
You never know!
He could be a total pain to the Washington folk and fought everything at the capitol. When he left American Airlines; the airline suffered almost immediately.
This Joyce bloke might be just what you need to whip it all back into shape.
You never know!
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The Shoe Is On The Other Foot Now
I hope he now realises how much Qantas has spent on getting J* up and running and everything to do with J* has come at great expense to Qantas. I work in engineering and we do all their servicing with no recompense at all. Some money, "we have been told", has been paid, but engineering at the SIT and Base have not seen a cent. (Sounds a lot like Air New Zealand/Ansett demise)
Recently at a Managers meeting at which some Engineering personnel were in attendance. (discussion turned to Qantas Vs John Holland bid for A380 Engineering) We were asked if one of the new A380's which was being serviced by JH was in trouble, would we go to their aid as it was a Qantas aircraft. Well you could have heard a pin drop when they were told NO. That would be JH's problem and if this company wanted to give Qantas Engineering to JH then they would have to suffered the consequences.
Recently J* announced that they were not inviting Qantas Engineering to bid for the 787 contract as they were going to do all their servicing themselves. Where they are going to get enough experienced engineers with a new type license, to handle the 60 odd aircraft they're going to be getting, is beyond us.
I can't wait to see J* flounder out there with inexperienced LAME's and AME's. It should be fun to watch them try and operate on their own with out the support of Qantas Engineering.
Let's see if they win anymore Low Cost Airline awards when things turn to SH1T.
Best of Luck A.J. you have inherited an Engineering mess, which will need to be handled with a lot more diplomacy than your predecessor possessed.
Recently at a Managers meeting at which some Engineering personnel were in attendance. (discussion turned to Qantas Vs John Holland bid for A380 Engineering) We were asked if one of the new A380's which was being serviced by JH was in trouble, would we go to their aid as it was a Qantas aircraft. Well you could have heard a pin drop when they were told NO. That would be JH's problem and if this company wanted to give Qantas Engineering to JH then they would have to suffered the consequences.
Recently J* announced that they were not inviting Qantas Engineering to bid for the 787 contract as they were going to do all their servicing themselves. Where they are going to get enough experienced engineers with a new type license, to handle the 60 odd aircraft they're going to be getting, is beyond us.
I can't wait to see J* flounder out there with inexperienced LAME's and AME's. It should be fun to watch them try and operate on their own with out the support of Qantas Engineering.
Let's see if they win anymore Low Cost Airline awards when things turn to SH1T.
Best of Luck A.J. you have inherited an Engineering mess, which will need to be handled with a lot more diplomacy than your predecessor possessed.
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What a laughable assertion that you need 777 time to train on a 787! Really genex, you're just losing it now.
Didn't this sort of crap get thrown around in the early days of glass cockpits?...'sorry son that 727 endoresment just doesn't cut it, you need glass time to fly this A310'
I think this was the attitude in the sandpit at one stage from memory.
Ok genex it's now clear where your hatred of mainline pilots comes from. You're still bitter that Qantas pilots didn't go on strike in support of the federation in '89...c'mon admit it.
I think YOU need to wait for spring, and smell those roses. Do it before your bile finally rises too high and chokes you.
Didn't this sort of crap get thrown around in the early days of glass cockpits?...'sorry son that 727 endoresment just doesn't cut it, you need glass time to fly this A310'
I think this was the attitude in the sandpit at one stage from memory.
Ok genex it's now clear where your hatred of mainline pilots comes from. You're still bitter that Qantas pilots didn't go on strike in support of the federation in '89...c'mon admit it.
I think YOU need to wait for spring, and smell those roses. Do it before your bile finally rises too high and chokes you.