CASA Concerns Over The Number Of Australian LAMEs.
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Torres wrote
Tool Allowance:
Hair Dresser $130 per annum
Aircraft Engineer (mechanical/structural) $450 per annum
Aircraft Engineer (avionics) $450 per annum
Carpenter - Builder $450 per annum
Australian apprentices generally receive a once off "Tools For Your Trade" allowance of $800 from the Federal Government, paid in the first year, out of probation.
Tool Allowance:
Hair Dresser $130 per annum
Aircraft Engineer (mechanical/structural) $450 per annum
Aircraft Engineer (avionics) $450 per annum
Carpenter - Builder $450 per annum
Australian apprentices generally receive a once off "Tools For Your Trade" allowance of $800 from the Federal Government, paid in the first year, out of probation.
Last July was when the government realised we where actually in shortage.
My year also missed out on a wage top up of $2000 Per annum and in my case $13000 as I am aged above 30. Not chicken feed for an apprentice you would agree.
Torres Wrote
Apprentice tools are more than adequately catered for through Award tool allowances and the Federal Tools For Your Trade program; training delivery and workbooks are included in State User Choice funding; and there are a range of programs offering financial inducements for apprentices to enter trades, including the Master Builder's, WorkSkills etc.
Apprentice tools are more than adequately catered for through Award tool allowances and the Federal Tools For Your Trade program; training delivery and workbooks are included in State User Choice funding; and there are a range of programs offering financial inducements for apprentices to enter trades, including the Master Builder's, WorkSkills etc.
Aviation Australia does offer the course at approx $50k for the year which is subsidised by the Queensland government if your a residence to the tune of 90%.You don't get subsidised if outside that state
You can get private courses from the likes of Queensland Aerospace college for the tune of $9.50 an hour + Casa basic fee.
Anyway what I am leading up to is that this might all change and it might all be going to commercial rates with the B1 with the employer expected to pay ...rates of more like $45 - $60 an hour. If you sit in on a TAFE class and your not subsided expect to pay commercial rates
TAFE does have some work books but I had to buy others to the tune of $250 in the first year.
I promise you its not easy being a apprentice.
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I promise you its not easy being a apprentice.
By the way, thank you all for your constructive input, it has opened my eyes further to the problem, let's hope someone from CASA reads it and acts on it.
Hasherucf. The purpose of my post was to dispel incorrect comment regarding apprentice terms and conditions. I did not intend to imply an apprenticeship was totally free of all cost to the apprentice.
I applaud you in undertaking a mature age apprenticeship and wish you every success in achieving your trade qualification. It is a very hard road, requiring determination and hard work. I guess you are aware the national cancellation rate in apprenticeship is well in excess of 40%, an appalling rate and in many cases, a reflection on the poor terms and conditions for apprentices.
There are those of us working "behind the scenes" to improve conditions for apprentices and to improve the quality of training in a flexible delivery environment. Despite public political rhetoric to the contrary and Australia's critical qualified trade shortages, our efforts are generally falling on deaf ears.
Many trades require a trade qualified person to undertake licensing exams, plumbers and electricians for example. CASA is to be condemned for the exorbitant and outrageous license fees it charges to those who can least afford it.
It is my personal view that the exams necessary to achieve an initial trade license - whether electrician, plumber or AME - should be free of all costs.
Yes, you would have missed out on "Tools for your Trade". The intent of the program is excellent however it's application in some respects, leaves something to be desired.
Airsupport. I don't think an apprenticeship is any harder now, than it was when my father completed his five year indenture over eighty years ago. However in a contemporary world today's apprentices are under different socio-economic pressures, resulting in successful completion as difficult today as it was back in your days.
Australia's problem is a critical labour shortage and so many competing career options.
I applaud you in undertaking a mature age apprenticeship and wish you every success in achieving your trade qualification. It is a very hard road, requiring determination and hard work. I guess you are aware the national cancellation rate in apprenticeship is well in excess of 40%, an appalling rate and in many cases, a reflection on the poor terms and conditions for apprentices.
There are those of us working "behind the scenes" to improve conditions for apprentices and to improve the quality of training in a flexible delivery environment. Despite public political rhetoric to the contrary and Australia's critical qualified trade shortages, our efforts are generally falling on deaf ears.
Many trades require a trade qualified person to undertake licensing exams, plumbers and electricians for example. CASA is to be condemned for the exorbitant and outrageous license fees it charges to those who can least afford it.
It is my personal view that the exams necessary to achieve an initial trade license - whether electrician, plumber or AME - should be free of all costs.
Yes, you would have missed out on "Tools for your Trade". The intent of the program is excellent however it's application in some respects, leaves something to be desired.
Airsupport. I don't think an apprenticeship is any harder now, than it was when my father completed his five year indenture over eighty years ago. However in a contemporary world today's apprentices are under different socio-economic pressures, resulting in successful completion as difficult today as it was back in your days.
Australia's problem is a critical labour shortage and so many competing career options.
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AME exams were free prior to my training (1988), they went from $30 to $105 within a year. luckily I was not married and without kids so I could just afford it.
The timing of the increases happened at the same time when a certain electrical shop owner came into power.
If they reduced the exam fees that would certainly help people who may be finding times tight to continue their training. I Hope CASA is watching this thread!
I have just left the industry and am having a ball. Nuff said really
The timing of the increases happened at the same time when a certain electrical shop owner came into power.
If they reduced the exam fees that would certainly help people who may be finding times tight to continue their training. I Hope CASA is watching this thread!
I have just left the industry and am having a ball. Nuff said really
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Airsupport. I don't think an apprenticeship is any harder now, than it was when my father completed his five year indenture over eighty years ago. However in a contemporary world today's apprentices are under different socio-economic pressures, resulting in successful completion as difficult today as it was back in your days.
Australia's problem is a critical labour shortage and so many competing career options.
Australia's problem is a critical labour shortage and so many competing career options.
Some time back when my Children were in high school, it was more a case of take any job you can get, even if you completed high school, and even Uni.
Now it seems to have gone full circle back to where it was, where there is a labour shortage and people can pick and chose again.
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Torres I just trying to share my experiances your input is great also . I started with another apprentice but they quit last week and I can see some of the guys I started with arent going to make it. Only 15 apprentices in total for WA that year.
I sat the Helicopter engine installation exam today and it was so dated . Questions about radial engines mounted in Helicopters with fabric fan shrouds. Try finding a helicopter using that today.
I sat the Helicopter engine installation exam today and it was so dated . Questions about radial engines mounted in Helicopters with fabric fan shrouds. Try finding a helicopter using that today.
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it was so dated . Questions about radial engines mounted in Helicopters with fabric fan shrouds.
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Media release from CASA today
Media release - Red tape cut to help boost Engineer numbers
Red tape hindering experienced overseas and defence force aircraft engineers from joining the Australian aviation industry has been cut by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
Procedures for qualified aircraft engineers to have their skills and training recognised have been streamlined to help boost the numbers of Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers.
This follows a careful review of maintenance personnel licensing requirements by CASA.
The changes will reduce the time and costs for overseas or Australian defence trained aircraft engineers to gain approval to work in the Australian civil aviation maintenance industry.
New procedures will mean the qualifications of overseas and defence engineers can be assessed before they come to Australia or leave the defence force.
CASA examined the maintenance personnel licensing system and regulatory oversight of six nations and has agreed to recognise engineers from these nations without a requirement for further technical examinations.
The recognised nations are Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands and the United Kingdom.
It is expected the list of recognised nations will grow as CASA continues to make more assessments.
CASA has also reviewed the training and qualifications provided by the defence forces and determined what levels provide the equivalent technical competency to the civilian requirements.
This means defence engineers who have reached these levels do not have to sit further exams.
CASA chief executive officer, Bruce Byron, says the changes are good news for Australia’s aviation industry.
“The aviation industry always needs engineers and by cutting red tape we can open up new opportunities for new people with the right qualifications to fill critical vacancies,” Mr Byron says.
“Overseas aircraft engineers will find Australia a more attractive place to work and defence force engineers can move more smoothly into civilian occupations.”
Red tape hindering experienced overseas and defence force aircraft engineers from joining the Australian aviation industry has been cut by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
Procedures for qualified aircraft engineers to have their skills and training recognised have been streamlined to help boost the numbers of Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers.
This follows a careful review of maintenance personnel licensing requirements by CASA.
The changes will reduce the time and costs for overseas or Australian defence trained aircraft engineers to gain approval to work in the Australian civil aviation maintenance industry.
New procedures will mean the qualifications of overseas and defence engineers can be assessed before they come to Australia or leave the defence force.
CASA examined the maintenance personnel licensing system and regulatory oversight of six nations and has agreed to recognise engineers from these nations without a requirement for further technical examinations.
The recognised nations are Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands and the United Kingdom.
It is expected the list of recognised nations will grow as CASA continues to make more assessments.
CASA has also reviewed the training and qualifications provided by the defence forces and determined what levels provide the equivalent technical competency to the civilian requirements.
This means defence engineers who have reached these levels do not have to sit further exams.
CASA chief executive officer, Bruce Byron, says the changes are good news for Australia’s aviation industry.
“The aviation industry always needs engineers and by cutting red tape we can open up new opportunities for new people with the right qualifications to fill critical vacancies,” Mr Byron says.
“Overseas aircraft engineers will find Australia a more attractive place to work and defence force engineers can move more smoothly into civilian occupations.”
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Well I never thought I would see this happen. 
They mean the list of recognised nations will grow as the shortage of LAMEs grows more serious. 
Instead of relaxing their quite strict regulations governing this, why on earth don't they make it easier and cheaper for Australians already IN the civil aviation industry here in Australia to become LAMEs.
It is expected the list of recognised nations will grow as CASA continues to make more assessments.
Instead of relaxing their quite strict regulations governing this, why on earth don't they make it easier and cheaper for Australians already IN the civil aviation industry here in Australia to become LAMEs.
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SACL are advertising right now for fitters to work a 12 hr shift 4 on 4 off for $95K.
You can make all the changes to the regulations you want. But when the guy fixing the baggage carousel gets more money than the guy fixing the planes, guess what?
You're gonna struggle to find guys to fix the planes.
You can make all the changes to the regulations you want. But when the guy fixing the baggage carousel gets more money than the guy fixing the planes, guess what?
You're gonna struggle to find guys to fix the planes.
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You're gonna struggle to find guys to fix the planes.
I think you will find it is the airlines that have forced (I mean persuaded
) CASA to relax these regulations.They will use them to import foreign LAMEs to fill their needs, and will have them contracted to stay with said airline for say 2 or 3 years at least in return for sponsoring them to live in Australia.
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I don't know that theres too many European LAMES that will come to QF given the wages that they offer.
Those that do are probably only coming for a working holiday. They will quickly realise the situation they are in and will either
1) head home again.
2) get a job fixing the baggage carousel if they want to stay in Aus.
Its only the LAMES that have been employed at QF for a long time and have accrued years of service re grades that earn an acceptable income. A Mechanical LAME coming from Europe with Eng and AF ratings on a 747/400 and 767 series would enter the QF pay system as a grade 5 and earn the princely sum of $61 229 basic (before tax) $79500 for the dubious pleasure of working nights, weekends and public holidays. I think the average aussie LAME is safe from marauding hordes of European LAMES.
As the saying goes "Money talks, Bull$&!t walks"
Those that do are probably only coming for a working holiday. They will quickly realise the situation they are in and will either
1) head home again.
2) get a job fixing the baggage carousel if they want to stay in Aus.
Its only the LAMES that have been employed at QF for a long time and have accrued years of service re grades that earn an acceptable income. A Mechanical LAME coming from Europe with Eng and AF ratings on a 747/400 and 767 series would enter the QF pay system as a grade 5 and earn the princely sum of $61 229 basic (before tax) $79500 for the dubious pleasure of working nights, weekends and public holidays. I think the average aussie LAME is safe from marauding hordes of European LAMES.
As the saying goes "Money talks, Bull$&!t walks"
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I don't know that theres too many European LAMES that will come to QF given the wages that they offer.
There may well be many that would jump at that, depending what they get now.
Also there may be some older ones, that would get a good payout from where they are, maybe get a good price for their house etc, and would gladly accept that much for the lifestyle etc here.
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'Casa to cut red tape'
Yes CASA was pressured the timing in relation to Qantas Lufthansatech maintenace deal (and apparently signed off on before the LAME Qantas EB) is just a bit coincidental.
The worrying lines in the release are:
The recognised nations are Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands and the United Kingdom.
It is expected the list of recognised nations will grow as CASA continues to make more assessments.
A. Why is unilateral recognition and not 'mutual recognition' as per the Trans TAs (does anyone know do we have this already?)
How does this help our guys if its unilateral ?
B. What happens to our mutual recognition arrangements with 3rd countries - I assume by lowering our standards we could be further disadvantaging our LAME
3. Who are the next countries on the list?
Does anyone know whats gone on behind the scemes ? Whose been consulted? .. can we find out what other countries are going to be recognised nest ?
The worrying lines in the release are:
The recognised nations are Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands and the United Kingdom.
It is expected the list of recognised nations will grow as CASA continues to make more assessments.
A. Why is unilateral recognition and not 'mutual recognition' as per the Trans TAs (does anyone know do we have this already?)
How does this help our guys if its unilateral ?
B. What happens to our mutual recognition arrangements with 3rd countries - I assume by lowering our standards we could be further disadvantaging our LAME
3. Who are the next countries on the list?
Does anyone know whats gone on behind the scemes ? Whose been consulted? .. can we find out what other countries are going to be recognised nest ?
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This is the problem with this idea, where will it end, what Countries will be "approved".
I worked an offshore contract some years back now, where the local Engineers who were among the best paid people in that Country, had a monthly yes MONTHLY salary of less than our overnight allowance for ONE night.
I think these Engineers would gladly accept what Qantas may offer.
I worked an offshore contract some years back now, where the local Engineers who were among the best paid people in that Country, had a monthly yes MONTHLY salary of less than our overnight allowance for ONE night.
I think these Engineers would gladly accept what Qantas may offer.
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Well airsupport, that is a different story altogether and far more likely result.
In my opinion Qf will train a very small number of people up to be LAMES and certify for large numbers of asian AMES brought in on short term contracts. Other Asian MRO's do this but buy in the LAMES instead of the AMES as they already have a large base of AMES to choose from.
The Marine industry already operate in this manner as do many aviation MRO's and it is only a matter of time befor the same thing happens here. Currently the 457 visas are being restricted but they will be relaxed eventually as QF's lack of training and lack of pay will bite and they will claim that there is a skill shortage and must import labour from asia to keep their planes in the air.
A bit gloomy I must admit but you must face realities and position yourslf accordingly. (ie start reskilling yourself for a job in another more profitable industry or start sucking hard to be one of those few QF LAMES)
In my opinion Qf will train a very small number of people up to be LAMES and certify for large numbers of asian AMES brought in on short term contracts. Other Asian MRO's do this but buy in the LAMES instead of the AMES as they already have a large base of AMES to choose from.
The Marine industry already operate in this manner as do many aviation MRO's and it is only a matter of time befor the same thing happens here. Currently the 457 visas are being restricted but they will be relaxed eventually as QF's lack of training and lack of pay will bite and they will claim that there is a skill shortage and must import labour from asia to keep their planes in the air.
A bit gloomy I must admit but you must face realities and position yourslf accordingly. (ie start reskilling yourself for a job in another more profitable industry or start sucking hard to be one of those few QF LAMES)
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you must face realities and position yourslf accordingly.
However after some 32 years as an LAME I still worry about those that carry on the fine traditions.
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Not sure how long this will remain here but this is WHY we NEED more LAMEs.
"Ode to the LAME"
The Airline Transport rated pilot;
Leaps buildings in a single bound.
Is more powerful than Concorde. Is faster than a speeding bullet.
Walks on water. And discusses policy with God.
The Multi-Engine rated pilot;
Leaps short buildings in a single bound.
Is more powerful than a Boeing 767.
Is as fast as a speeding bullet.
Walks on water on a calm day. And talks to God.
The Instrument rated pilot;
Leaps short buildings with a running start and a favorable wind.
Is almost as powerful as a Boeing 737-200.
Nearly as fast as a speeding bullet.
Walks on the water of a deep puddle. And talks to God if specifically requested.
The Commercial rated pilot;
Leaves fingernail scratch marks at the top when trying to leap a short building.
Loses a tug of war with a BAE 125.
Can fire a speeding bullet. Swims well. And is occasionally addressed by God.
The Private pilot;
Rarely clears a Scout camp tent.
Is run over by a single engined aircraft.
Sometimes recognizes a speeding bullet.
Can dog-paddle. And talks to animals.
The Soloed student pilot;
Runs into buildings.
Recognizes a Cessna 172 two out of three times.
Has never seen a speeding bullet.
Can stay afloat under instruction. And talks to the wall.
The Non-Soloed student pilot;
Trips over door sills on entering buildings.
Says "Gosh, look at the airplane" a lot.
Does not know what a bullet is.
Only stands in the shallow end. And mumbles to himself.
The Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer;
Lifts buildings and walks under them.
Kicks aircraft out of hangars.
Catches speeding bullets in his teeth and chews them.
Freezes water with a single glance. And talks to every body.
The Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer IS God.
but this is WHY we NEED more LAMEs. "Ode to the LAME"
The Airline Transport rated pilot;
Leaps buildings in a single bound.
Is more powerful than Concorde. Is faster than a speeding bullet.
Walks on water. And discusses policy with God.
The Multi-Engine rated pilot;
Leaps short buildings in a single bound.
Is more powerful than a Boeing 767.
Is as fast as a speeding bullet.
Walks on water on a calm day. And talks to God.
The Instrument rated pilot;
Leaps short buildings with a running start and a favorable wind.
Is almost as powerful as a Boeing 737-200.
Nearly as fast as a speeding bullet.
Walks on the water of a deep puddle. And talks to God if specifically requested.
The Commercial rated pilot;
Leaves fingernail scratch marks at the top when trying to leap a short building.
Loses a tug of war with a BAE 125.
Can fire a speeding bullet. Swims well. And is occasionally addressed by God.
The Private pilot;
Rarely clears a Scout camp tent.
Is run over by a single engined aircraft.
Sometimes recognizes a speeding bullet.
Can dog-paddle. And talks to animals.
The Soloed student pilot;
Runs into buildings.
Recognizes a Cessna 172 two out of three times.
Has never seen a speeding bullet.
Can stay afloat under instruction. And talks to the wall.
The Non-Soloed student pilot;
Trips over door sills on entering buildings.
Says "Gosh, look at the airplane" a lot.
Does not know what a bullet is.
Only stands in the shallow end. And mumbles to himself.
The Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer;
Lifts buildings and walks under them.
Kicks aircraft out of hangars.
Catches speeding bullets in his teeth and chews them.
Freezes water with a single glance. And talks to every body.
The Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer IS God.
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Of course you do NOT have to do an Apprenticeship to become an LAME, but I guess they are just trying to do something to relieve this impending very serious shortage of LAMEs.
ermmmm....at 2k a pop me thinks very poor excuse...
sounds like something that is done purely for the report to the govt:
look, see, we are doing something...
