QF back to NGO/KIX for Jet*

[Captain Sherm]

So L/H EBA covers ALL the QF Group's 787s? Or just whatever number of hulls allocated to have the Qantas logo? I couldn't see current L/H cabin crew happy to fly the current and future LCC routes and inflight service? Maybe they would though. The aircraft is supposed to have higher humidity and lower cabin altitude so I suppose it would be more pleasant.

[drshmoo]

Condition Lever

One star are only in the hunt for the first 787s to set a LOW bench mark for management to introduce them to where the actual profit is- mainline.

I'm all for the One star boyz/girlz having jobs but remember their existance is to combat competition at the lower end of the market and more importantly to be used as a pawn in the QF management vs AIPA bargaining wars.

If NGO and KIX are half as fun as NRT I hope mainline gets them ( I doubt this) and spare the poor Japanese public

Something tells me that lots of the current issues with the QF groups maintenance planning could be solved by having heavy maintenance in Sydney - oh thats right they retrenced everyone. I love long term planning at this place. Long term meaning the term of contract for the manager who decides sell the floor out of the establishment to show initial on paper savings and just enough time to pull a massive bonus and take their short term mangerial style to some other industry
Oops I've said to much

[Condition lever]

L/H Cabin Crew have signed an EBA that guarantee's them operating the dreamliner.

Huh???????
So there will be QF cabin crew on the first 15 - 40 787s operated by J*???? - according to your logic.
GD has already stated that if the model warrants it, the aircraft will be allocated as required.
My point being (tongue in cheek as it was) that the whole lot of the 787s may go to J* - I was actually joking, however your post shows that you have not considered this possibility and are naively believeing that an EBA you claim states guarantees you the right to operate these aircraft is incorrect or at best only limited to aircraft operated by mainline - which could be none.

[Condition lever]

drshmoo

Dont kid yourself mate.
If there hadnt been a delay in the delivery of the 787 J* would have been going to NRT as well.
Guess it will all depend on how quickly the additional 330s can be sourced.

[lowerlobe]

Condition Lever....I was referring to your facetious post ..

Who said mainline are getting any 787s

My post was simply to mean that mainline would be getting the 787's.

However,your post is trying to suggest that J* will get them all.This is possibly because of the previous posts questioning the suitability of the J* model in the Japanese market.

I did not suggest or mean to infer that mainline would get them all because the 787 was specifically mentioned in the L/H CC EBA.

The question of how many though is another matter.

Now,I won't go into how much credibility I give GD's statement but to be honest I have always believed that the company operates on a day to day basis and from experience there is nothing naive about that.

That means they don't know who gets what aircraft and when.

[Condition lever]

agree with you completely.

[HF3000]

I'm all for the One star boyz/girlz having jobs but remember their existance is to combat competition at the lower end of the market and more importantly to be used as a pawn in the QF management vs AIPA bargaining wars.

Drshmoo, I hope AIPA doesn't really think that Jetstar was created "to be used as a pawn in the QF management vs AIPA bargaining wars."

Jetstar was created for exactly the same reason that Coles/Myer have a Myer and a Kmart (2 brand strategy), and also a Coles and a BiLo (2 brand strategy). And the same reason that Toyota have Toyota and Lexus (2 brand strategy). It's not a new business idea.

A two brand strategy was not necessary in the Australian airline industry until recently because there were no successful low cost airlines to compete against. Now there are, so the business principle makes sense.

Qantas Mainline employees in my opinion should be greatful for the existence of Jetstar, because Jetstar has enabled Mainline to concentrate on the high end of the market... Remember when Mainline started configuring it's 737s to all-economy to compete with DJ? Mainline was starting to look dangerously like turning into a low-cost airline itself at that point in time. When Jetstar commenced operations that trend reversed and Mainline was once again able to concentrate on high-yield business. And this is the important bit: a high-yield business can afford to offer decent terms and conditions to its staff - so Jetstar has taken pressure off Mainline terms and conditions. (GD won't admit that though, he'll still try any and every trick in the book to reduce the cost of the business, but the point is the business is currently making a lot of money while still providing reasonable terms and conditions. That's a lot harder for a low-margin business to do).

So I know GD is not a pilot lover but get real - he ain't gonna set up an entire new airline just to spite AIPA...

But getting back to the thread, GD also ain't gonna care if the Japanese "like" Jetstar or not. Nobody "likes" Jetstar. But they travel on them because the price is right and it gets them from A to B. I hate trains, but I travel on them. I hate taxis, but I travel on them. I also hate Jetstar flights, but I travel on them. GD will only care if Jetstar makes a profit on the route or not. If they don't, he'll take them off or try to fix it. The Japanese might prefer Qantas but that's not much use to Qantas if they can't make a profit on the route!

Qantas KIX/NGO = happy Japanese and no profit,
Jetstar KIX/NGO = unhappy Japanese but profit!

[lowerlobe]

The Japanese might prefer Qantas but that's not much use to Qantas if they can't make a profit on the route!

How do you honestly know that QF was not making a profit on the Japanese flights?

So I know GD is not a pilot lover but get real - he ain't gonna set up an entire new airline just to spite AIPA...

It's not only pilots that work for an airline and that have lower pay at J* than mainline.
Look at the big picture because GD is.....

[HF3000]

I know it's not only pilots, that's my point. He didn't do it just to make war with pilots. He needed a new airline with an entirely different workforce structure.

[mohikan]

Senior QF management has a irrational hated of all its salaried not management staff, but particularly the operational staff.

Top of this list is the pilots. Look at the massive losses incurred by JQ asia, the massive cross subsidisation of JQI / JQD and the deliberate hiring of offshore scabs when there are a stack of well qualified Australian pilots all around the world who would come home if asked.

You have to ask yourself - why do these guys make business decisions based on emotional responses equivalent to a pre-pubescent schoolgirl ?

Perhaps one day we will all have an answer. In the mean time the occupation of pilot in this country sinks deeper and deeper into the mire...

[Keg]

Jetstar was created for exactly the same reason that Coles/Myer have a Myer and a Kmart (2 brand strategy), and also a Coles and a BiLo (2 brand strategy). And the same reason that Toyota have Toyota and Lexus (2 brand strategy). It's not a new business idea.

Your logic falls down in the fact that the workers for the two companies are actually covered by the same award and on the same rates of pay. Each of the 'cheaper' or more expensive brands makes it's money by either turning over in bulk or by value adding. Neither of these requires you to trash your incumbent staff.

Your logic also falls down in that the overwhelming majority of AIPA members are not against the J* concept. Rather, we're against the 'locking out' of long serving and supposedly 'senior officers' or 'responsible officers' of the company from getting a go at upgrades; we're against the segmentation that sees the high yield part of the business lumped with the outdated and crappy equipment; we're sick of having QF assets employed (not so much any more but certainly in the early days) to assist the LCC model and being told how well the LCC model is doing.

Qantas KIX/NGO = happy Japanese and no profit,
Jetstar KIX/NGO = unhappy Japanese but profit!

The real version should be:

Qantas KIX/NGO= happy japanese and no profit on that route but lots of profit on other domestic routes those Japenese people fly on as well as the fact that they will fly with us again and tell their friends to also do so.
Jetstar KIX/NGO = unhappy Japanes but profit on that route....until they decide to never fly with us again either internationally as well as domestically and decide to tell every work colleague, golf buddy and family member to not come near the QF group with a ten foot samurai sword.

I know which version is sustainable.

[Capt_SNAFU]

Your logic also falls down in that the overwhelming majority of AIPA members are not against the J* concept. Rather, we're against the 'locking out' of long serving and supposedly 'senior officers' or 'responsible officers' of the company from getting a go at upgrades; we're against the segmentation that sees the high yield part of the business lumped with the outdated and crappy equipment; we're sick of having QF assets employed (not so much any more but certainly in the early days) to assist the LCC model and being told how well the LCC model is doing.

I think the above quote somes up a lot of the feeling of mainline towards J*, and you can see why certain segments of the mainline pilot body dislike the way J* has been given priority. Personally I believe that the two brand strategy is a sound one. The way they are going about it I don't entirely agree with.

Re the 787 I am still yet to hear a good argument as to why J* get them first. Helping the cost sheet look better on the J* is not a valid one. Especially if the a reason for J* to be created (i.e. to take the pressure off the mainline) suffers as result of having to fly POS whilst J* get the new aircraft.

I sort of sit there and think about a company that owns both hire cars and taxis. The Hire cars are for the high end high paying passengers, whilst the taxi is for the everyday punter. The hire car company has ageing cadillacs that though still pretty good are not the new model cars that the other companies have and are starting to have some issues. The taxi section has fairly new renaults that do the job well, the drivers have plenty of experience driving and dealing with european cars. Whilst the hire car section is used to the American car.

The company places a large order for the latest and greatest cadillacs and what do they do, instead of replacing the aging caddys that the hire car section has they send the brand new caddy's to the taxi company, the one one that has never really had a great deal of experience with American cars (when compared to the hire car section) and already has european stuff more than capable of doing the job. Then they send the european cars from the taxi section that are being replaced with Caddy's to the hire car section.

Does the above seem a little silly? Apparently not to QF managment. Why don't J* hold on to the A330?

Also keep hearing whispers that Boeing want the red tail to introduce the type. Something about companies with lots of Boeing experience introducing the type. Also hear that the CP has told the QF Boeing tech pilots (the guys with all the HGS and RNP knowledge) that they are not to give anymore assistance to J* re the introduction of the 787.

[desmotronic]

QANTAS STATEMENT ON FURTHER B787 DELAYS
SYDNEY, 10 April 2008: Qantas Airways said it had put in place contingencies to alleviate possible capacity constraints caused by the further delay of the B787 Dreamliner.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas Airways, Mr Geoff Dixon, said today Qantas was not surprised by the further delay announced by Boeing.
“We are, however, very disappointed that Boeing has again delayed the delivery schedule.
“That said, we did anticipate a further delay and have been working on contingencies for some time.”
Mr Dixon said Qantas had already secured a leasing agreement, subject to Board approval, for up to six A330 aircraft which would go into the Jetstar International operations.
“These aircraft are the same as currently used by Jetstar for its long haul flying and will provide adequate growth for Jetstar until the arrival of the Dreamliner.”
Mr Dixon said the Qantas Group now expected to receive its first B787-8 15 months after its original delivery date.
“The B787-9 aircraft, which has also been ordered by the Qantas Group, will also be delayed by between 15 and 23 months.
“We are currently in discussions to lease further aircraft to ensure sufficient capacity for the needs of all our airlines in the coming years.”
Mr Dixon said under its purchase agreement with Boeing, Qantas was entitled to substantial liquidated damages.
“These funds will be used initially to offset the cost of lease agreements,” he said.
Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (Q3745)
Media Enquiries: Lloyd Quartermaine T: 02 9691 4058

[Aussie Fo]

Gday all,

I personally think that yes GD is not out to screw his staff. Yes expansion has happened in JQ, but that was the only way the maths added up. To open up JQ to pilots on maybe 5 year LOA, in these times of pilot shortages is to open up competion within the group. I think it has been offered that in the future JQ or 49.9 % will prob be sold off.

"Hi we are short of pilots in QF. Oh thats right we have 20 guys on LOA expiring in 3 months, thanks well have them back"

JQ is about putting more bums into QF hubs, and being proactive against much lower Asian based operators.

Personally i am amazed that for once QF is on the agressive foot.

And i would much rather be a QF startee than a JQ one. Just a lifestyle point.

[northsteyne]

I can't beleave all that is posted,
Jetstar will prevail, maybe it will be B767 under J * banner,who cares,QF pilots along with engineering and cabin crew will operate these services (ie AUS AIRLINES)as directed by the boss, as before.
It was not long ago one of my mates had to operate MEL -HNL on a 767 as a jetstar flt, not impressed but did it anyway.
QF staff will sell there .souls for a promation these days,we all need to stand together as one

[Condition lever]

Also keep hearing whispers that Boeing want the red tail to introduce the type. Something about companies with lots of Boeing experience introducing the type. Also hear that the CP has told the QF Boeing tech pilots (the guys with all the HGS and RNP knowledge) that they are not to give anymore assistance to J* re the introduction of the 787.

What an absolute crock!!!
You truely are a clown

[Capt_SNAFU]

Thats ok it's only what I hear. Any insight as to a good reason for J* getting the 787 ahead of the mainline in terms of the greater need for new equipment?

[Captain Sherm]

SNAFU

With all due respect to the tech guys in QF, I wouldn't have thought there was any special black magic about 1) operating Boeings 2) RNP and 3) HGS. Also,it is hard to believe that a professional airline exec like the CP would withold knowledge from whoever in the QF Group needed it, however low-level that knowledge was.

In any case I understood from the newspaper ads last year that Jetstar was going to hire a number of 777 drivers who would be easily able to obtain the common type rating (787/777). So the initial cadre of JQ check and training pilots would be heavily weighted toward guys with lots of 777 time. As nobody in Qantas has a 777 rating and AIPA won't allow DECs maybe it makes a lot of sense to build the 787 capability within Jetstar so after they have it mastered they can then teach the Qantas pilots how it all works.

Anyway, thats an outsiders view. I guess they all know what they're doing.

[Keg]

I know for a fact that J* have a number of highly experienced Boeing twin drivers working for/with them on the 787 introduction. Someone, somewhere in Boeing- probably a marketing person rather than a technical person- has probably expressed a desire as to what would look better for Boeing re the 787 introduction but I don't doubt the ability of the QF group to introduce the 787 with the minimum of fuss. In this respect we actually should be helping each other out....as long as the assistance is acknowledged and the costs attributed accordingly!

[Ex QF]

Boeing pays competitor Airbus via Qantas for delay

Boeing pays competitor Airbus via Qantas for delayThursday, April 17, 2008

Jetstar will request Qantas directors accept a $200 million deal today, which will enable the budget brand to lease a fleet of Airbus jetliners, paid for by the compensation demanded from Boeing.

The board meeting has the cost of acquiring new planes on the agenda, as well as the financial reparations to be received from Boeing after the delays in delivering the 787 Dreamliner.

The directors will also consider an overhauled frequent flyer plan.

The most significant focus for the directors will relate to filling a gap in aircraft capacity, resulting from the third delay in delivery of the new Boeing jet, which is now 15 months behind schedule.

Business Day reports that Qantas sources anticipate the amount to be in excess of the $200 million that Airbus paid to Qantas following the two year delay of the first A380.

Although numbers have not been admitted, a senior airline source informed Business Day, “if you look at the size of the Boeing order against the 12 planes that Airbus delayed you get some idea of how much Boeing will have to pay.”

The delay in delivery has already breached the multimillion dollar contract where Qantas had placed firm orders for 65 Dreamliners and options for a further 50.

Qantas could still renege unscathed, due to the breach, but has clarified that it remains confidence that the fuel efficient Dreamliner will be beneficial and profitable for Jetstar.

The new route plans for Jetstar will be delayed by at least six months, and hence Boeing is expected to compensate for the loss of potential earning and the fact Jetstar will lose the opportunity to be the first discount airline operating certain routes into Asia.

The leasing agreement is necessary for Jetstar to preserve their market share and attract passengers for their expansion plans into Europe.

Jetstar fears that without the new planes, they’ll “be behind the eight-ball when Air AsiaX launches cheap flights from Australia to Europe,” a Qantas senior divulged to Business Day.

Air AsiaX has already announced the plans for cheap flights to London, using their Airbus A350s, but Jetstar will have a limited range with A330s, and will only just reach Athens or Rome.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...39-664,00.html