Merged: Boeing Revises 787 First Flight and Delivery Plans- Again
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787-9 - Original Specs - 2 Class - 280 Pax - 15700km Range.
6400kgs overweight. Range now reduced to 12800km
777-300ER - 2 Class - 450 Pax - 14600km Range.
Doesn't take a mental giant really!
One more magical piece of work from the management of the future.
6400kgs overweight. Range now reduced to 12800km
777-300ER - 2 Class - 450 Pax - 14600km Range.
Doesn't take a mental giant really!
One more magical piece of work from the management of the future.
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When will we see Jetstar & Qantas 787s in Australia?
Sorry if this has been covered in another thread. Understanding the Boeing 787 deliveries are delayed and shifting, what is the latest delivery estimate for Jetstar and Qantas 787s? How soon - 2013? How many on order/option for each?
Is it true Jetstar will get the first batch of 15 and they will replace australia-based A330s? Are they meant to replace the A330 fleet or supplement them? Will they be the 900 version?
Cheers for any updates and details. Will be nice to see the 787 in Jetstar and Qantas paint schemes in a few years.
Is it true Jetstar will get the first batch of 15 and they will replace australia-based A330s? Are they meant to replace the A330 fleet or supplement them? Will they be the 900 version?
Cheers for any updates and details. Will be nice to see the 787 in Jetstar and Qantas paint schemes in a few years.
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Latest I have heard is that the first batch of 15 will be entering service with Jetstar mid 2013 onwards. Where they will be based is still the big question but most people seem to expect them ALL to go to Singapore. Rumour is that the performance figures aren't quite what they expected so won't be able to open up the new routes to Europe until the 900's arrive.
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Don't hold your breath waiting to see a 787 in QF colours.
The little Irish geek has made that abundantly clear.
Seems all QF is good for is paying the bills while all the profit goes to the orange cancer.
The little Irish geek has made that abundantly clear.
Seems all QF is good for is paying the bills while all the profit goes to the orange cancer.
Take five, if your figures are correct re the -9 then the Qantas group problems are about to get a whole lot worse if thats possible. The 787-8 in 3 class at ANA is 158 seats. One would have to think that the -9 in 3 class with sleepers would only be around 200 seats. The 787 was never and will never be a 747 replacement which is what i think Qantas imagine it to be. Further as of 2015 Qantas are saying there will only be 9 747-400s. If they continue to fly the following with 747s, Jburg daily, Santiago starting at 3 going to 5 per week, Dallas daily, Lax from Bne 5 a week and from Sydney (107/108) daily, Narita daily, Perth daily, Bne/Sin daily, Frankfurt daily, the my figures are for a minimum of 15 aircraft. How they plan do this with 9 aircraft i dont know, cut more ports? use A330s? Rumours about Frankfurt going but if they do that they might as well give the game away.
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And just like the Dugong (which incidently also gets less fuel savings than first touted) there will be teething problems with this composite ship.
For QF there is absolutely no question that the 777 is the aircraft of choice. It is well and truly time for QF to explain why this workhorse is constantly and consistently overlooked. There are no logical explanations.
I smell a rat.
For QF there is absolutely no question that the 777 is the aircraft of choice. It is well and truly time for QF to explain why this workhorse is constantly and consistently overlooked. There are no logical explanations.
I smell a rat.
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Overlooked is Jetstar's eventual and savvy decision to stop waiting for the 787
About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases
A bit of a giggle when I read the original press release from MJ GD etc..... back in 2005.
In defense of Joyce & Qantas fleet planning - Wings Down Under
Even flightglobal.com had trouble defending the headline of this story, reading between the lines.. the story finishes with
yeah
"not adding destinations" alright, more like reducing them.....
Sydney, December 14 2005
Qantas said today that it had selected the Boeing 787 as the cornerstone of its domestic and international fleet renewal program.
Under the fleet plan, the Qantas Group will acquire 115 B787 aircraft:
* 65 Boeing 787s for Qantas mainline and Jetstar for delivery from 2008; and
* rights for an additional 50 B787s for growth.
The decision follows the airline's Request for Proposal to Airbus and Boeing, which was announced in August 2005, for the provision of twin-engine wide-body aircraft.
The Chairman of Qantas, Ms Margaret Jackson, said Qantas intended to fund the purchase of the new aircraft from operating cash flow.
"This fleet plan will give us a modern fleet offering maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs and greater fuel efficiency," Ms Jackson said.
"Qantas has focused strongly on growth since its privatisation 10 years ago, and those strategies have paid off.
"These new aircraft are vital for our continued growth in the face of increasing competition in the years ahead.
"They will cater for international capacity growth and new routes, as well as replacing the Qantas Group's fleet of wide-body Boeing 767-300s," she said. The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the tender had been very competitive, with excellent options proposed by both Boeing and Airbus.
"The Boeing 787 provides breakthrough technology, enabling us to fly further to more point-to-point destinations throughout the world at a cost equivalent to operating larger aircraft like the Boeing 747-400.
"One of our clear priorities is for Jetstar to be ready for international operations by early 2007, with the fastest possible transition to new technology, more efficient aircraft," he said.
Mr Dixon said Jetstar would commence operations with an interim fleet of four A330-200 aircraft and transition as quickly as possible to a fleet of 10 new Boeing 787 aircraft, with delivery of Jetstar's first B787 scheduled for August 2008.
"We will take delivery of the first B787 for Qantas mainline operations in July 2009," he said.
"The Boeing 787 is ideal for operating to Asia, as well the USA and Europe, and with 300 seats, will enable both Qantas and Jetstar to closely target markets without compromising efficiency," he said.
"Its new technology engines, cutting-edge airframe and increased seat count also offer a significant reduction in costs per ASK compared to the current Boeing 767." Mr Dixon said Qantas' current order was a mix of B787-8 and later model B787-9 aircraft. "When the B787-9 model is ready for service in 2011, it will represent an even greater engineering breakthrough, flying further than the B787-8 but with capacity for 50 additional passengers," he said.
Mr Dixon said the B787's lighter fuselage, which was constructed from composite material, allowed the aircraft to:
* fly further with a full payload;
* burn less fuel;
* fly faster than any other aircraft of its size; and
* reduce maintenance costs.
"The composite fuselage also allows increased window size and a lower cabin altitude pressure that reduces the effects of jetlag."
Mr Dixon said the Boeing 787 had been developed out of the Boeing investment in its Sonic Cruiser project, which had resulted in the development of groundbreaking technology like the use of composite materials that could be suitably manufactured for commercial aircraft.
"The B787 has a 'double bubble' design that increases width at shoulder height to ensure the most spacious cabin feel for customers as well as providing more freight capacity.
"In addition to the 787-8 and 787-9 models, Boeing is studying an extension of the 787 family. Boeing is also continuing to look for ways of enhancing further the B787's range performance."
Mr Dixon said Boeing had designated two engine types for the B787 - Rolls Royce and General Electric - with both engines offering new technology that allowed lower fuel burn and significant efficiency gains.
He said Qantas would require up to 145 engines and would commence the selection process in 2006.
The B787 goes into production in 2006, with its first flight planned for 2007 and certification, delivery and entry into service in 2008.
Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (3369) Email: [email protected] About Qantas Airways
Qantas Airways is a global air carrier with more than 200 aircraft offering service to 140 destinations in 40 countries. Founded in 1920, Qantas Airways in 2004 celebrated 50 years of continuous flying between North America and Australia with more non-stop flights to Australia and New Zealand than any other carrier and provides convenient connections from New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco (effective March 29, 2006) and Honolulu to Indonesia, India and South Africa via the Sydney hub. Named Airline of the Year 2004 by Air Transport World magazine, Qantas Airways has long been recognized for its continued focus on excellence in the air as well as on the ground. Qantas' Skybed received the prestigious Chicago Athenaeum Museum 2004 Good Design Award for its sleeper seat, which has just been introduced in the North American market.
Qantas said today that it had selected the Boeing 787 as the cornerstone of its domestic and international fleet renewal program.
Under the fleet plan, the Qantas Group will acquire 115 B787 aircraft:
* 65 Boeing 787s for Qantas mainline and Jetstar for delivery from 2008; and
* rights for an additional 50 B787s for growth.
The decision follows the airline's Request for Proposal to Airbus and Boeing, which was announced in August 2005, for the provision of twin-engine wide-body aircraft.
The Chairman of Qantas, Ms Margaret Jackson, said Qantas intended to fund the purchase of the new aircraft from operating cash flow.
"This fleet plan will give us a modern fleet offering maximum flexibility, lower seat mile costs and greater fuel efficiency," Ms Jackson said.
"Qantas has focused strongly on growth since its privatisation 10 years ago, and those strategies have paid off.
"These new aircraft are vital for our continued growth in the face of increasing competition in the years ahead.
"They will cater for international capacity growth and new routes, as well as replacing the Qantas Group's fleet of wide-body Boeing 767-300s," she said. The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the tender had been very competitive, with excellent options proposed by both Boeing and Airbus.
"The Boeing 787 provides breakthrough technology, enabling us to fly further to more point-to-point destinations throughout the world at a cost equivalent to operating larger aircraft like the Boeing 747-400.
"One of our clear priorities is for Jetstar to be ready for international operations by early 2007, with the fastest possible transition to new technology, more efficient aircraft," he said.
Mr Dixon said Jetstar would commence operations with an interim fleet of four A330-200 aircraft and transition as quickly as possible to a fleet of 10 new Boeing 787 aircraft, with delivery of Jetstar's first B787 scheduled for August 2008.
"We will take delivery of the first B787 for Qantas mainline operations in July 2009," he said.
"The Boeing 787 is ideal for operating to Asia, as well the USA and Europe, and with 300 seats, will enable both Qantas and Jetstar to closely target markets without compromising efficiency," he said.
"Its new technology engines, cutting-edge airframe and increased seat count also offer a significant reduction in costs per ASK compared to the current Boeing 767." Mr Dixon said Qantas' current order was a mix of B787-8 and later model B787-9 aircraft. "When the B787-9 model is ready for service in 2011, it will represent an even greater engineering breakthrough, flying further than the B787-8 but with capacity for 50 additional passengers," he said.
Mr Dixon said the B787's lighter fuselage, which was constructed from composite material, allowed the aircraft to:
* fly further with a full payload;
* burn less fuel;
* fly faster than any other aircraft of its size; and
* reduce maintenance costs.
"The composite fuselage also allows increased window size and a lower cabin altitude pressure that reduces the effects of jetlag."
Mr Dixon said the Boeing 787 had been developed out of the Boeing investment in its Sonic Cruiser project, which had resulted in the development of groundbreaking technology like the use of composite materials that could be suitably manufactured for commercial aircraft.
"The B787 has a 'double bubble' design that increases width at shoulder height to ensure the most spacious cabin feel for customers as well as providing more freight capacity.
"In addition to the 787-8 and 787-9 models, Boeing is studying an extension of the 787 family. Boeing is also continuing to look for ways of enhancing further the B787's range performance."
Mr Dixon said Boeing had designated two engine types for the B787 - Rolls Royce and General Electric - with both engines offering new technology that allowed lower fuel burn and significant efficiency gains.
He said Qantas would require up to 145 engines and would commence the selection process in 2006.
The B787 goes into production in 2006, with its first flight planned for 2007 and certification, delivery and entry into service in 2008.
Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (3369) Email: [email protected] About Qantas Airways
Qantas Airways is a global air carrier with more than 200 aircraft offering service to 140 destinations in 40 countries. Founded in 1920, Qantas Airways in 2004 celebrated 50 years of continuous flying between North America and Australia with more non-stop flights to Australia and New Zealand than any other carrier and provides convenient connections from New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco (effective March 29, 2006) and Honolulu to Indonesia, India and South Africa via the Sydney hub. Named Airline of the Year 2004 by Air Transport World magazine, Qantas Airways has long been recognized for its continued focus on excellence in the air as well as on the ground. Qantas' Skybed received the prestigious Chicago Athenaeum Museum 2004 Good Design Award for its sleeper seat, which has just been introduced in the North American market.
In defense of Joyce & Qantas fleet planning - Wings Down Under
In defense of Joyce & Qantas fleet planning
When Boeing in the 1990s went to create its new long-haul twinjet, the 777, it took the hitherto unprecedented step of involving ten airlines in the aircraft's design. All but one of those airlines would go on to order scores of 777s.
The standout? Qantas.
The standout? Qantas.
The 787 was a clearer shot. It had no competitor and will now have a few year's advantage on the A350 XWB. An outstanding question is if the 787-8 will under-perform due to excess weight and thus if airlines should have waited for the 787-9, or consider the A350XWB.
What incites people's comments about bad fleet planning at Qantas is the carrier's old 747-400s and 767s. That is not Qantas's fault. The carrier had a sound fleet plan: the last of Qantas's 12 A380s were, at the time of the order, to be delivered in May 2009 (it now hopes to have 11 come August). The A380s would replace 747-400s, which in turn would allow for the retirement of classic 747s. Likewise 787s would replace 767s starting in 2008.
Then the A380 got delayed. Then again. And again. Ditto for the 787, times seven, and counting. Qantas took two bets on new jetliners and lost them both, but did not ignore triage.
Overlooked is Jetstar's eventual and savvy decision to stop waiting for the 787 and instead launch routes, most recently to Singapore from Melbourne and Auckland, with A330s. No, Jetstar is not going to Europe--yet--with A330s, but it is a start.
What incites people's comments about bad fleet planning at Qantas is the carrier's old 747-400s and 767s. That is not Qantas's fault. The carrier had a sound fleet plan: the last of Qantas's 12 A380s were, at the time of the order, to be delivered in May 2009 (it now hopes to have 11 come August). The A380s would replace 747-400s, which in turn would allow for the retirement of classic 747s. Likewise 787s would replace 767s starting in 2008.
Then the A380 got delayed. Then again. And again. Ditto for the 787, times seven, and counting. Qantas took two bets on new jetliners and lost them both, but did not ignore triage.
Overlooked is Jetstar's eventual and savvy decision to stop waiting for the 787 and instead launch routes, most recently to Singapore from Melbourne and Auckland, with A330s. No, Jetstar is not going to Europe--yet--with A330s, but it is a start.
I don't think anyone ever said the 777 should have been ordered at the A380's expense for routes like LAX and LHR like you suggest.
The 777 would have been more useful for opening up or maintaining long range routes to destinations that will not support an A380 or 747. Currently QF only have 2 destinations in Europe and 3 in the USA. Some people feel that this might be different if 777's had been in the fleet from the late 90's onwards.
The 777 would have been more useful for opening up or maintaining long range routes to destinations that will not support an A380 or 747. Currently QF only have 2 destinations in Europe and 3 in the USA. Some people feel that this might be different if 777's had been in the fleet from the late 90's onwards.
I have opined the above based on Qantas not adding destinations, and thus requiring more and/or different types of aircraft, as others charge Qantas should have. I'll look at network next, and there I plan to give no defense to Qantas.
"not adding destinations" alright, more like reducing them.....
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I don't think there was any issue holding ground. The A380 & 787 fleet decisions were sound. The problem was delays that have now opened the window for all this 777 debate. The 787 is very close to being a 777-200.
Europe is not the end game for Jetstar. Look at AirAsia X pulling off Paris and London. They said from the get-go the routes just needed to break even to enhance the brand and build traffic into AirAsia's short-haul networks. Jetstar doesn't need to do that. It has oneworld carriers feeding its SIN hubs. The larger parent (QF Group) has a presence in Europe via Qantas. AirAsia X's larger parent (MAS-AirAsia, admittedly convoluted and only part owners) have a presence in Europe via MAS. Everyone may want to go to Europe and the continent may seem alluring, but the yields are depressing. Things can change with the 787 & A350, but not by much.
Qantas and Jetstar change 787 strategy to support Asian growth and unit cost improvement | CAPA
Europe is not the end game for Jetstar. Look at AirAsia X pulling off Paris and London. They said from the get-go the routes just needed to break even to enhance the brand and build traffic into AirAsia's short-haul networks. Jetstar doesn't need to do that. It has oneworld carriers feeding its SIN hubs. The larger parent (QF Group) has a presence in Europe via Qantas. AirAsia X's larger parent (MAS-AirAsia, admittedly convoluted and only part owners) have a presence in Europe via MAS. Everyone may want to go to Europe and the continent may seem alluring, but the yields are depressing. Things can change with the 787 & A350, but not by much.
“The initial B787s are just A330 replacements. All they’ll do initially is give us a better cost base than the existing business platform. They won’t give us opportunity for new network structures,” Mr Buchanan said. “You’ll see them go into Singapore, Melbourne, Sydney – all the existing routes.” Mr Buchanan affirmed weight issues were not driving the decision to have B787s takeover existing routes rather than open new ones. “No, nothing to do with weight issues or performance issues. The A330s are going back to Qantas to retire B767s.... It’s a fleet issue.”
Once opportunities do come to open new routes, Jetstar will focus on Asia. “Europe and North America are really network extension opportunities for us. They’re not core market or revenue sources for us as opposed to the core Asian market,” Mr Buchanan said.
Once opportunities do come to open new routes, Jetstar will focus on Asia. “Europe and North America are really network extension opportunities for us. They’re not core market or revenue sources for us as opposed to the core Asian market,” Mr Buchanan said.
The 787 may be almost a 772, but who is ordering them these days anyway? They are old technology 
The 773ER is where it's at and I doubt any 787 will ever get close to it's economics. Especially if they re-wing it and modernize it further.
I bet Qantas do something stupid, rather than ordering the 777, they will go for the A351's. That's what you get from the finest airline management in the world.
The 773ER is where it's at and I doubt any 787 will ever get close to it's economics. Especially if they re-wing it and modernize it further.
I bet Qantas do something stupid, rather than ordering the 777, they will go for the A351's. That's what you get from the finest airline management in the world.
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It used to be that when a new aircraft type couldn't be delivered as promised & there was a similar, suitable alternative, that these would be offered on cheap leases until delivery of the ordered aircraft was achieved. There would also be no penalty when they were handed back as the ordered aircraft were delivered. Perhaps this doesn't happen now, or perhaps Qantas rejected the offer.
A 777-200LR or even a -200ER would have probably been a more than suitable alternative & most of the problems & costs associated with the delayed delivery would have then been avoided. Another upside would have been that QF would have been able to see if the aircraft would have suited their operation or not, for very little cost.
If this had been done, you may well have seen the 787 order converted to 777's of various marques, given all the advantages of the thing.
A 777-200LR or even a -200ER would have probably been a more than suitable alternative & most of the problems & costs associated with the delayed delivery would have then been avoided. Another upside would have been that QF would have been able to see if the aircraft would have suited their operation or not, for very little cost.
If this had been done, you may well have seen the 787 order converted to 777's of various marques, given all the advantages of the thing.
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In the States, Delta Airlines has deferred its 787 order (formerly ordered by Northwest pre-merger) to something like 2020 or beyond in favor of getting more 777s. Delta's CEO Richard Anderson has clearly stated that the 777 provides better economics than the 787 and Delta already has sufficient experience using the 777 and will get more of them.
I agree, the fact that Qantas have not ordered the 777-300 is astounding considering the Asian competition and the flight ranges involved. Plus, those 744s are looking their age - time to get some newer looking airplanes to compete with the Asian birds...
I agree, the fact that Qantas have not ordered the 777-300 is astounding considering the Asian competition and the flight ranges involved. Plus, those 744s are looking their age - time to get some newer looking airplanes to compete with the Asian birds...
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Unless of course Qantas don't want to compete.
Just saying........
These management types are committed to their 'group think' mentality and Pilots are kamikazees, engineers are rouges and unions are responsible for all their problems.
If a true leader got in there and sold his vision to the employees, he could take them all along on for the ride and make Qantas a world leading airline once again.
Unfortunately it's being run the same way Ansett was, by the same managers, making the same mistakes.
Just saying........
These management types are committed to their 'group think' mentality and Pilots are kamikazees, engineers are rouges and unions are responsible for all their problems.
If a true leader got in there and sold his vision to the employees, he could take them all along on for the ride and make Qantas a world leading airline once again.
Unfortunately it's being run the same way Ansett was, by the same managers, making the same mistakes.
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Having had a recent chat with a former QF manager who claims involvement in the original 777/380 review this was what he said
- Decision at the time was one or the other - Qantas could not add another type (think Ansett)
- Qantas routes are very different to other airlines - key international requirement is ultra-long haul flights into slot restricted and time restricted airports (ie LHR,LAX but SYD restrictions play a factor) - means there are very limited flight windows that work
- On these routes - bigger is better so long as you can fill the plane, hence the 380 as Qantas rightly confident they could fill the plane.
- 787-8/9 fills a different mission on lower capacity routes or one where scheduling will enable multiple daily flights (eg into Asia)
Interestingly said he could see a role for a future 777NG if cockpit commonality with the 787 for flights needing more capacity, but not the 773 as for an airline that needs to keep its fleet (due to Aussie tax laws) for as long as QF that would be stupidity
- Decision at the time was one or the other - Qantas could not add another type (think Ansett)
- Qantas routes are very different to other airlines - key international requirement is ultra-long haul flights into slot restricted and time restricted airports (ie LHR,LAX but SYD restrictions play a factor) - means there are very limited flight windows that work
- On these routes - bigger is better so long as you can fill the plane, hence the 380 as Qantas rightly confident they could fill the plane.
- 787-8/9 fills a different mission on lower capacity routes or one where scheduling will enable multiple daily flights (eg into Asia)
Interestingly said he could see a role for a future 777NG if cockpit commonality with the 787 for flights needing more capacity, but not the 773 as for an airline that needs to keep its fleet (due to Aussie tax laws) for as long as QF that would be stupidity
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Take Five...
The 789 has not been built so how can it be overweight? Boeing are ahead of the self imposed schedule to get the over weight out of the 788 by Line # 90 and with the 789 at something like Line #130 there is no reason why it should not come in on weight. From PIANO-X calculations based on a 126t DOW it will haul a 280 seat passenger load 8000nm. For a 7000nm ESAD sector, which is about SYD-LAX-SYD it will haul the same passenger load plus 9t of cargo.
The 789 has not been built so how can it be overweight? Boeing are ahead of the self imposed schedule to get the over weight out of the 788 by Line # 90 and with the 789 at something like Line #130 there is no reason why it should not come in on weight. From PIANO-X calculations based on a 126t DOW it will haul a 280 seat passenger load 8000nm. For a 7000nm ESAD sector, which is about SYD-LAX-SYD it will haul the same passenger load plus 9t of cargo.
Last edited by moutere101; 19th Feb 2012 at 11:02. Reason: correct an error
Quote "B787 is the most heavily subsidized aircraft in aviation history"
Sweeping Loss for Boeing in WTO Appeal
Appeal Report confirms and extends the WTO's condemnation of massive illegal subsidies to Boeing
Appellate Body rejects nearly 90% of US appeals of the WTO's earlier findings while validating 100% of EU appeals
Loss of roughly $45 billion in Airbus sales due to illegal Boeing subsidies
B787 is the most heavily subsidized aircraft in aviation history
Today’s Report from the World Trade Organization (WTO) Appellate Body (DS353) confirms and even extends previous WTO findings. The Report confirms the existence of illegal U.S. subsidies to Boeing – previously identified by the WTO as “at least $5.3 billion” and extended by billions of US dollars as a result of today’s decision – resulting in an estimated loss of approximately $45 billion in sales for Airbus. Despite earlier Boeing claims that only minimal actions to comply with WTO rules were necessary, it has become clear today that Boeing will have to make major changes to comply with this final WTO ruling.
“The Appellate Body has now spoken in both the Airbus and Boeing cases,” said Rainer Ohler, Airbus’ Head of Public Affairs and Communications. “Comparing the core claims made by both sides, the net outcome is clear:
Boeing’s cash grants are fundamentally illegal, while the system of loans to Airbus by European governments is legal and may continue. Boeing and the U.S. now will have six months to implement the WTO decision.”
Moreover, today’s decision is a broad repudiation of the US’s arguments in this case – rejecting every single US appeal regarding the subsidies given to Boeing and nearly all of its appeals as to the competitive harm that those subsidies impose, while accepting every single EU point of appeal.
The WTO Appellate Body’s report highlights the scale of illegal support to Boeing funded by U.S. taxpayers. The final decision confirms the facts already available from the previous Panel Report:
Boeing has already received “at least $5.3 billion” of U.S. taxpayer dollars, determined to be illegal.
Boeing is set to receive at least an additional $2 billion in illegal state and local subsidies in the future under existing illegal schemes.
The effect of the subsidies is significantly larger than their face value in light of their “particularly pervasive” nature.
These pervasive subsidies have thoroughly distorted competition within the aviation industry, directly resulting in significant harm to the European aerospace industry.
Boeing would not have been able to launch the 787 without illegal subsidies.
“Consequently, the B787 – previously known as the “Dreamliner” – is now to be called the “Subsidy-liner” (B7aid7). The WTO ruling proves it is the most highly subsidized aircraft in the history of aviation”, commented Rainer Ohler.
Furthermore, today’s report also expands on earlier WTO findings to reveal additional illegal and anti-competitive features of the support provided to Boeing. Specifically, the WTO Appellate Body agrees with the European Union that:
• Every single one of the 23 U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) and all eight of the NASA research grant programmes are illegal subsidies.
• The U.S. Government’s many transfers to Boeing of intellectual property rights for technology developed at U.S. taxpayers’ expense were illegal subsidies.
• The WTO has now also embraced the EU appeal by determining that an additional approximately $500 million in state and local support from Kansas are also illegal subsidies that must be withdrawn.
Airbus congratulates the European Commission and the Governments of France, Germany, the UK and Spain for their success at the WTO and is grateful for the years of effort they have invested in setting the record straight.
“Boeing and the U.S. only have six months to end decades of illegal corporate welfare for Boeing and fundamentally change the way the U.S. Government supports the commercial aerospace business: a disappointing outcome for those who launched this battle. Without compliance, massive sanctions will result – conclusively dispelling the U.S. and Boeing’s public smokescreen that the WTO’s findings will have no relevant consequences for Boeing,” Ohler concluded.
Source : Airbus, an EADS N.V. company (Paris: EAD.PA)
Appeal Report confirms and extends the WTO's condemnation of massive illegal subsidies to Boeing
Appellate Body rejects nearly 90% of US appeals of the WTO's earlier findings while validating 100% of EU appeals
Loss of roughly $45 billion in Airbus sales due to illegal Boeing subsidies
B787 is the most heavily subsidized aircraft in aviation history
Today’s Report from the World Trade Organization (WTO) Appellate Body (DS353) confirms and even extends previous WTO findings. The Report confirms the existence of illegal U.S. subsidies to Boeing – previously identified by the WTO as “at least $5.3 billion” and extended by billions of US dollars as a result of today’s decision – resulting in an estimated loss of approximately $45 billion in sales for Airbus. Despite earlier Boeing claims that only minimal actions to comply with WTO rules were necessary, it has become clear today that Boeing will have to make major changes to comply with this final WTO ruling.
“The Appellate Body has now spoken in both the Airbus and Boeing cases,” said Rainer Ohler, Airbus’ Head of Public Affairs and Communications. “Comparing the core claims made by both sides, the net outcome is clear:
Boeing’s cash grants are fundamentally illegal, while the system of loans to Airbus by European governments is legal and may continue. Boeing and the U.S. now will have six months to implement the WTO decision.”
Moreover, today’s decision is a broad repudiation of the US’s arguments in this case – rejecting every single US appeal regarding the subsidies given to Boeing and nearly all of its appeals as to the competitive harm that those subsidies impose, while accepting every single EU point of appeal.
The WTO Appellate Body’s report highlights the scale of illegal support to Boeing funded by U.S. taxpayers. The final decision confirms the facts already available from the previous Panel Report:
Boeing has already received “at least $5.3 billion” of U.S. taxpayer dollars, determined to be illegal.
Boeing is set to receive at least an additional $2 billion in illegal state and local subsidies in the future under existing illegal schemes.
The effect of the subsidies is significantly larger than their face value in light of their “particularly pervasive” nature.
These pervasive subsidies have thoroughly distorted competition within the aviation industry, directly resulting in significant harm to the European aerospace industry.
Boeing would not have been able to launch the 787 without illegal subsidies.
“Consequently, the B787 – previously known as the “Dreamliner” – is now to be called the “Subsidy-liner” (B7aid7). The WTO ruling proves it is the most highly subsidized aircraft in the history of aviation”, commented Rainer Ohler.
Furthermore, today’s report also expands on earlier WTO findings to reveal additional illegal and anti-competitive features of the support provided to Boeing. Specifically, the WTO Appellate Body agrees with the European Union that:
• Every single one of the 23 U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) and all eight of the NASA research grant programmes are illegal subsidies.
• The U.S. Government’s many transfers to Boeing of intellectual property rights for technology developed at U.S. taxpayers’ expense were illegal subsidies.
• The WTO has now also embraced the EU appeal by determining that an additional approximately $500 million in state and local support from Kansas are also illegal subsidies that must be withdrawn.
Airbus congratulates the European Commission and the Governments of France, Germany, the UK and Spain for their success at the WTO and is grateful for the years of effort they have invested in setting the record straight.
“Boeing and the U.S. only have six months to end decades of illegal corporate welfare for Boeing and fundamentally change the way the U.S. Government supports the commercial aerospace business: a disappointing outcome for those who launched this battle. Without compliance, massive sanctions will result – conclusively dispelling the U.S. and Boeing’s public smokescreen that the WTO’s findings will have no relevant consequences for Boeing,” Ohler concluded.
Source : Airbus, an EADS N.V. company (Paris: EAD.PA)
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New Dreamliner 787-9 off on test flight
Updated 10:00 AM Wednesday Sep 18, 2013
A Boeing 787-9 taking off at Paine Field in Everett, Washington this morning. Photo / AP
The next model of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner took off today for a four-hour test flight.
Air New Zealand is the launch customer of the 787-9 aircraft and the first of the planes is due to join its fleet in the middle of next year.
The flight was due to land around 10am NZT, but is currently still flying east of Seattle.
The aircraft took off early today from Paine Field, near the factory where the plane was assembled, to the cheers of a couple of hundred Boeing employees who watched the blue and white plane with a number 9 on the tail rise into a cloudy sky.
See more details of the flight, including live streaming at Boeing's website here.
A Boeing 787-9 taking off at Paine Field in Everett, Washington
After its maiden test flight, the plane was scheduled to land at Boeing Field in Seattle.
The 787-9 is 6 metres longer and can seat 40 more passengers than the original 787-8, which carries between 210 and 250 passengers. The new version of the fuel-efficient, long-haul widebody also can carry more cargo and fly further, Boeing spokeswoman Kate Bergman said.
The 787-9 has 388 firm orders, which account for 40 per cent of all 787 orders, Bergman said.
After flight tests and certification, the first 787-9 will be delivered next June to Air New Zealand.
The airline won't get the test aircraft first but one that is still on the production line. The first two test planes will be refitted before being delivered to Air New Zealand which has 10 of the 787-9s on order to fly routes, initially in the Pacific rim and Australia.
The original 787-8 was delivered in September 2011, nearly three years late because of production problems. The worldwide fleet of about 50 planes was grounded for almost four months this year after lithium batteries smouldered on two planes in January.
The redesigned battery system, which resolves the overheating problems, is built into the 787-9.
Boeing plans another stretch with the 787-10. That plane would seat between 300 and 330 passengers.
By Grant Bradley Email Grant
Updated 10:00 AM Wednesday Sep 18, 2013
A Boeing 787-9 taking off at Paine Field in Everett, Washington this morning. Photo / AP The next model of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner took off today for a four-hour test flight.
Air New Zealand is the launch customer of the 787-9 aircraft and the first of the planes is due to join its fleet in the middle of next year.
The flight was due to land around 10am NZT, but is currently still flying east of Seattle.
The aircraft took off early today from Paine Field, near the factory where the plane was assembled, to the cheers of a couple of hundred Boeing employees who watched the blue and white plane with a number 9 on the tail rise into a cloudy sky.
See more details of the flight, including live streaming at Boeing's website here.
A Boeing 787-9 taking off at Paine Field in Everett, Washington
After its maiden test flight, the plane was scheduled to land at Boeing Field in Seattle.
The 787-9 is 6 metres longer and can seat 40 more passengers than the original 787-8, which carries between 210 and 250 passengers. The new version of the fuel-efficient, long-haul widebody also can carry more cargo and fly further, Boeing spokeswoman Kate Bergman said.
The 787-9 has 388 firm orders, which account for 40 per cent of all 787 orders, Bergman said.
After flight tests and certification, the first 787-9 will be delivered next June to Air New Zealand.
The airline won't get the test aircraft first but one that is still on the production line. The first two test planes will be refitted before being delivered to Air New Zealand which has 10 of the 787-9s on order to fly routes, initially in the Pacific rim and Australia.
The original 787-8 was delivered in September 2011, nearly three years late because of production problems. The worldwide fleet of about 50 planes was grounded for almost four months this year after lithium batteries smouldered on two planes in January.
The redesigned battery system, which resolves the overheating problems, is built into the 787-9.
Boeing plans another stretch with the 787-10. That plane would seat between 300 and 330 passengers.
By Grant Bradley Email Grant
The 787-9 has 388 firm orders, which account for 40 per cent of all 787 orders, Bergman said.
After flight tests and certification, the first 787-9 will be delivered next June to Air New Zealand.
The airline won't get the test aircraft first but one that is still on the production line. The first two test planes will be refitted before being delivered to Air New Zealand which has 10 of the 787-9s on order to fly routes, initially in the Pacific rim and Australia.
After flight tests and certification, the first 787-9 will be delivered next June to Air New Zealand.
The airline won't get the test aircraft first but one that is still on the production line. The first two test planes will be refitted before being delivered to Air New Zealand which has 10 of the 787-9s on order to fly routes, initially in the Pacific rim and Australia.
The 787-9 has 388 firm orders, which account for 40 per cent of all 787 orders, Bergman said.
After flight tests and certification, the first 787-9 will be delivered eventually to Air New Zealand.
The airline won't get the test aircraft first but one that is still on the production line. The first two test planes will be refitted before being delivered to Air New Zealand which has 10 of the 787-9s on order to fly routes, initially in the Pacific rim and Australia.
After flight tests and certification, the first 787-9 will be delivered eventually to Air New Zealand.
The airline won't get the test aircraft first but one that is still on the production line. The first two test planes will be refitted before being delivered to Air New Zealand which has 10 of the 787-9s on order to fly routes, initially in the Pacific rim and Australia.
