Merged: Boeing Revises 787 First Flight and Delivery Plans- Again
400R, your figures are a little exaggerated. If you are talking about comparing the RB211-524 in comparison to the CF6, the weight difference is significantly less than a tonne (the -T mod reduced the weight as well as lowering fuel consumption) but more importantly, the engine "hot section" lasts more than 2 times longer than the GE - the difference is so large that GE has been doing a lot of research into extending the life of their "hot section" and a mod has recently been released (although this will still not be as effective as the -T mod). The slower decay of the "hot section" on the RR results in better fuel consumption figures which more than offsets the weight difference.
If you want to look at higher thrust engines as on the B777-200ER/300 which I believe are in the 95-98,000lb thrust class, the GE90 engine is more than 2 tonnes heavier than the RR Trent, so it appears that the 3 spool design becomes more effective at higher thrusts.
You obviously have a different flare technique to me and I find the Roller a much easier aircraft to get consistent landings. The higher residual thrust of the GE's tend to cause longer landings unless you use the half flare & freeze technique. Taxiing the RR aircraft at 15-18 knots does not require more than idle thrust but if you dawdle around at 8 knots, then you have to apply additional thrust. The high idle thrust of the GE does cause significantly more use of the brakes which is not ideal.
The GE is a great engine wrt its faster starting and better acceleration but talking to a number of LAME's the RR is machined to a higher standard.
Getting back to the thread, it's hard to do any comparison on the B787 engines at this stage as both engines are significantly different due to there being no requirement for huge quantities of bleed air. Qantas selected the GENx engine over the RR Trent 1000 but I recall Peter Gregg saying at the time that there was very little difference between the engines.
If you want to look at higher thrust engines as on the B777-200ER/300 which I believe are in the 95-98,000lb thrust class, the GE90 engine is more than 2 tonnes heavier than the RR Trent, so it appears that the 3 spool design becomes more effective at higher thrusts.
The residual thrust is less (so on flare I always retard the levers at 30ft for the Rolls) c.f. 50 ft for the GE's, and as it is company policy to shut down 2 engines on arrival after the mandatory cool down period, the Rolls always requires more than idle thrust to keep the aircraft moving.
The GE is a great engine wrt its faster starting and better acceleration but talking to a number of LAME's the RR is machined to a higher standard.
Getting back to the thread, it's hard to do any comparison on the B787 engines at this stage as both engines are significantly different due to there being no requirement for huge quantities of bleed air. Qantas selected the GENx engine over the RR Trent 1000 but I recall Peter Gregg saying at the time that there was very little difference between the engines.
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Boeing says 787 testing going well
11:00 AM Wednesday Mar 10, 2010
Expand The new Boeing 787 jet taking off on its inagural flight last year.
Boeing is putting its new 787 through an aggressive flight-testing schedule, with the fourth plane set to begin test flights on Sunday.
Boeing is aiming to deliver the plane to its first customer by the end of this year. By midyear it is aiming to fly six planes a total of 90 hours per week, Jim Albaugh, chief executive of Boeing's commercial airplane division, told analysts on Tuesday.
Albaugh said the testing so far has included more than 100 stalls, some practice with an engine off, and a dive that brought it to Mach .97, close to the speed of sound.
He said the testing program got off to a slow start after the plane first flew in December. But there is one month to six weeks extra built into the testing schedule in case of other delays, he said.Boeing also plans to do more testing on each flight. By the end of March it expects to have the government approval it needs to bring engineers and officials from the Federal Aviation Administration on the test flights, he said. "Everybody felt very euphoric over the first flight, and it did retire a significant amount of technical risk," he said, "but we've got a very aggressive flight test program in front of us."
Air New Zealand is the launch customer for the larger version of the plane, the 787-9, which was due to be delivered this year. The airline will now have to wait until 2013 before it gets the first of its eight planes on order.
Boeing needs to produce 787s faster than it has any other large plane. Albaugh said its peak for large plane production was 92 of its then-new 747 in 1970.
By 2013 it hopes to make 120 787s per year, or 10 per month. Right now Boeing is making two per month, and should be up to two-and-a-half by August, Albaugh said.
Boeing's workhorse, the 737, faces increased competition. Right now Boeing basically has a duopoly with Airbus for planes that seat 126 to 149 people. But Bombardier, which mostly makes smaller jets, is developing a new plane called the CS300 which will seat 138 people as configured by Republic Airways in an order last month. That's comparable to the 737.
Albaugh said Boeing is thinking about putting a new engine on the 737 to make it competitive with newer planes. He said he expects a decision on that near the end of the year. Albaugh also said airline traffic is beginning to improve. "We think we'll see the airlines come back into the market in 2012," he said.
11:00 AM Wednesday Mar 10, 2010
Expand The new Boeing 787 jet taking off on its inagural flight last year. Boeing is putting its new 787 through an aggressive flight-testing schedule, with the fourth plane set to begin test flights on Sunday.
Boeing is aiming to deliver the plane to its first customer by the end of this year. By midyear it is aiming to fly six planes a total of 90 hours per week, Jim Albaugh, chief executive of Boeing's commercial airplane division, told analysts on Tuesday.
Albaugh said the testing so far has included more than 100 stalls, some practice with an engine off, and a dive that brought it to Mach .97, close to the speed of sound.
He said the testing program got off to a slow start after the plane first flew in December. But there is one month to six weeks extra built into the testing schedule in case of other delays, he said.Boeing also plans to do more testing on each flight. By the end of March it expects to have the government approval it needs to bring engineers and officials from the Federal Aviation Administration on the test flights, he said. "Everybody felt very euphoric over the first flight, and it did retire a significant amount of technical risk," he said, "but we've got a very aggressive flight test program in front of us."
Air New Zealand is the launch customer for the larger version of the plane, the 787-9, which was due to be delivered this year. The airline will now have to wait until 2013 before it gets the first of its eight planes on order.
Boeing needs to produce 787s faster than it has any other large plane. Albaugh said its peak for large plane production was 92 of its then-new 747 in 1970.
By 2013 it hopes to make 120 787s per year, or 10 per month. Right now Boeing is making two per month, and should be up to two-and-a-half by August, Albaugh said.
Boeing's workhorse, the 737, faces increased competition. Right now Boeing basically has a duopoly with Airbus for planes that seat 126 to 149 people. But Bombardier, which mostly makes smaller jets, is developing a new plane called the CS300 which will seat 138 people as configured by Republic Airways in an order last month. That's comparable to the 737.
Albaugh said Boeing is thinking about putting a new engine on the 737 to make it competitive with newer planes. He said he expects a decision on that near the end of the year. Albaugh also said airline traffic is beginning to improve. "We think we'll see the airlines come back into the market in 2012," he said.
Boeing 787 Begins 1st Flight-Test Operations Outside of Washington
This marks the beginning of the first flight-test operations outside of Washington state for the program
(Victorville, Calif., March 9, 2010) -- The second Boeing (NYSE: BA) 787 Dreamliner, ZA002, landed at 10:53 a.m. local time today in Victorville, Calif. This marks the beginning of the first flight-test operations outside of Washington state for the program.
The airplane will be stationed at Victorville for approximately three weeks. The crew will conduct ground effects testing among other activities.
During ground effects testing, the pilots fly the airplane very close to the runway to gather data regarding the aerodynamic effects and performance of the airplane during the takeoff and landing phases of flight. Quantifying this performance is part of the certification requirements for all new airplanes.
"Victorville's airfield is the former George Air Force Base," said Randy Neville, chief pilot for ZA002. "There is ample ramp space for parking and plenty of on-site facilities. There is a long runway and plenty of level, clear land along the approach to the runway. We can operate there without disrupting air traffic control or other commercial aircraft."
A crew of more than 150 employees will be stationed at Victorville while the airplane is there. These include the flight test engineers and support personnel required to prepare the airplane for each day's flights and to monitor performance and test equipment.
"Our confidence in the reliability of this airplane grows day by day," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program. "Taking the airplane out of state for the first time is a big step, but one we're ready for."
(Victorville, Calif., March 9, 2010) -- The second Boeing (NYSE: BA) 787 Dreamliner, ZA002, landed at 10:53 a.m. local time today in Victorville, Calif. This marks the beginning of the first flight-test operations outside of Washington state for the program.
The airplane will be stationed at Victorville for approximately three weeks. The crew will conduct ground effects testing among other activities.
During ground effects testing, the pilots fly the airplane very close to the runway to gather data regarding the aerodynamic effects and performance of the airplane during the takeoff and landing phases of flight. Quantifying this performance is part of the certification requirements for all new airplanes.
"Victorville's airfield is the former George Air Force Base," said Randy Neville, chief pilot for ZA002. "There is ample ramp space for parking and plenty of on-site facilities. There is a long runway and plenty of level, clear land along the approach to the runway. We can operate there without disrupting air traffic control or other commercial aircraft."
A crew of more than 150 employees will be stationed at Victorville while the airplane is there. These include the flight test engineers and support personnel required to prepare the airplane for each day's flights and to monitor performance and test equipment.
"Our confidence in the reliability of this airplane grows day by day," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program. "Taking the airplane out of state for the first time is a big step, but one we're ready for."
... and they can always just leave it there if it doesn't work...
Fourth B787 flies
Item by australianaviation.com.au on March 15, 2010 11:36 am
ZA003 flies. (Boeing)
The fourth Boeing 787 to join the flight test program, ZA003 N787BX, made its first flight from Everett’s Paine Field on March 14.
Captains Ray Craig and Mike Bryan were at the controls of ZA003 for the three hour, six minute flight, which took off from Paine Field at 10:55am local time and landed at Boeing Field, Seattle, at 2:01pm.
ZA003 is fitted with a partial passenger interior, and will be used to demonstrate that the 787’s interior meets certification requirements. Boeing says ZA003 will also be used for systems, noise, flightdeck operations, avionics, electromagnetic effect, high intensity radion frequency response and ETOPS testing.
ZA003 is the last of four Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 powered 787 flight test aircraft to fly. Two further General Electric GEnx powered 787s (ZA005 and ZA006) will also join the flight test program.
To date all four flying 787s have accumulated 288 flying hours on 96 flight tests. ZA001 has flown 57 times, ZA002 37 times, and ZA004 and now ZA003 once each.
ZA003 flies. (Boeing)
The fourth Boeing 787 to join the flight test program, ZA003 N787BX, made its first flight from Everett’s Paine Field on March 14.
Captains Ray Craig and Mike Bryan were at the controls of ZA003 for the three hour, six minute flight, which took off from Paine Field at 10:55am local time and landed at Boeing Field, Seattle, at 2:01pm.
ZA003 is fitted with a partial passenger interior, and will be used to demonstrate that the 787’s interior meets certification requirements. Boeing says ZA003 will also be used for systems, noise, flightdeck operations, avionics, electromagnetic effect, high intensity radion frequency response and ETOPS testing.
ZA003 is the last of four Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 powered 787 flight test aircraft to fly. Two further General Electric GEnx powered 787s (ZA005 and ZA006) will also join the flight test program.
To date all four flying 787s have accumulated 288 flying hours on 96 flight tests. ZA001 has flown 57 times, ZA002 37 times, and ZA004 and now ZA003 once each.
Boeing Completes Ultimate-Load Wing Test on 787
The initial results of the ultimate-load test are positive. More extensive analysis and review are required before the test can be deemed a success
(Everett, Wash., March 28, 2010) -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) today completed the ultimate-load wing up-bending test on the 787 Dreamliner static test unit. During the testing, loads were applied to the airframe to replicate 150 percent of the most extreme forces the airplane is ever expected to experience while in service. The wings were flexed upward by approximately 25 feet (7.6 meters) during the test.
The initial results of the ultimate-load test are positive. More extensive analysis and review are required before the test can be deemed a success.
"The test program has been more robust than any conducted on a Boeing commercial jetliner," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "It has taken countless hours of hard work by the Boeing team and our partners to work through the static test program. Everyone who has been involved in this effort over the past several years should be very proud of their contributions to ensuring the safety of the 787 Dreamliner.
"We are looking forward to the technical team's report on the details of the test results," said Fancher. It will take them several weeks to work through all of the data.
During each second of the more than two-hour test, thousands of data points were collected to monitor the performance of the wing. Key data points are monitored real-time during the test, but all of the data will be evaluated in the weeks ahead.
787 Dreamliner Background
The 787 Dreamliner is an all-new twinjet designed to meet the needs of airlines around the world in providing nonstop service between mid-size cities with new levels of efficiency. The airplane will bring improved levels of comfort to passengers with larger windows, bigger baggage bins and advances in the cabin environment, including lower cabin altitude, higher humidity and cleaner air. Delivery of the first 787 is planned for the fourth quarter of 2010.
Source : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
It would be interesting to know what equivalent 'G' loading that amount of wing deflection represents. I'd hazard a guess and say it is probably not achieveable and even if it was would not be surviveable.
Anyone got any idea?
Regards,
BH.
Anyone got any idea?
Regards,
BH.
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Looks like the stretch version may be back in consideration . . . from today's Airline Transport World.
Bernstein: 787-10 could be back on the table
Airline Transport World
Wednesday March 31, 2010
by Geoffrey Thomas
Boeing's proposed 787-10 stretch may be back on the radar as the 787 and 747-8 programs are retiring risk, according to a new report from New York-based Bernstein Research.
The report, released yesterday, also highlights concerns that the 787 may be falling behind on its flight test hr., although Boeing remains within the margin to enable the first three aircraft to be delivered to ANA by year end.
Following meetings with Boeing management, Bernstein said the manufacturer is "more confident about potential 787 weight reduction, which has made the second stretch airplane, the 787-10, again a possibility." The research group noted that it "does not know specifically where the 787 stands on weight" but that Boeing expressed confidence that later airplanes will meet performance requirements.
"One measure of progress on the 787's weight is that management is again looking at the possibility of a second stretch, i.e., a 787-10," Bernstein stated. It sees the derivative, along with a 777 rework, as part of the manufacturer's response to the A350-1000.
It is generally accepted that the 787-8 was overdesigned for a high margin of error on structure and lightning protection. The view at Boeing "is that there should be substantial potential to take out structural weight," Bernstein said. Airlines originally were pushing for a 50-seat stretch over the 787-9 with identical 8,500-nm. range, while Boeing wanted a straight payload/range trade with a 7,000-nm. range (ATWOnline, July 10, 2007).
The Bernstein report raised concerns about rework given that 30 787s and 15 747-8s will be complete before certification programs are concluded. It noted that "the potential for significant rework still exists on both programs. The discovery last week in 747-8 test flight of buffeting due to airflow over the landing gear door is an example." That problem, however, is regarded as minor.
It said the overall risk of substantial rework on the 787 has come down significantly after successful flutter/stability control flight tests and structural static wing tests (ATWOnline, March 30).
Airline Transport World
Wednesday March 31, 2010
by Geoffrey Thomas
Boeing's proposed 787-10 stretch may be back on the radar as the 787 and 747-8 programs are retiring risk, according to a new report from New York-based Bernstein Research.
The report, released yesterday, also highlights concerns that the 787 may be falling behind on its flight test hr., although Boeing remains within the margin to enable the first three aircraft to be delivered to ANA by year end.
Following meetings with Boeing management, Bernstein said the manufacturer is "more confident about potential 787 weight reduction, which has made the second stretch airplane, the 787-10, again a possibility." The research group noted that it "does not know specifically where the 787 stands on weight" but that Boeing expressed confidence that later airplanes will meet performance requirements.
"One measure of progress on the 787's weight is that management is again looking at the possibility of a second stretch, i.e., a 787-10," Bernstein stated. It sees the derivative, along with a 777 rework, as part of the manufacturer's response to the A350-1000.
It is generally accepted that the 787-8 was overdesigned for a high margin of error on structure and lightning protection. The view at Boeing "is that there should be substantial potential to take out structural weight," Bernstein said. Airlines originally were pushing for a 50-seat stretch over the 787-9 with identical 8,500-nm. range, while Boeing wanted a straight payload/range trade with a 7,000-nm. range (ATWOnline, July 10, 2007).
The Bernstein report raised concerns about rework given that 30 787s and 15 747-8s will be complete before certification programs are concluded. It noted that "the potential for significant rework still exists on both programs. The discovery last week in 747-8 test flight of buffeting due to airflow over the landing gear door is an example." That problem, however, is regarded as minor.
It said the overall risk of substantial rework on the 787 has come down significantly after successful flutter/stability control flight tests and structural static wing tests (ATWOnline, March 30).
Boeing Confirms Success on 787 Wing, Fuselage Ultimate Load Test
(Everett, Wash., April 7, 2010) -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) announced today that all test requirements were successfully met during the 787 Dreamliner's ultimate load wing and fuselage bending test. This follows a thorough analysis of the results from a test on the 787 static test airframe.
"Successfully completing this test is a critical step in the certification of the 787. This is further validation that the 787 performs as expected, even in the most extreme circumstances," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program for Boeing Commercial Airplanes.
On March 28, loads were applied to the test unit to replicate 150 percent of the most extreme forces the airplane is ever expected to experience while in service. The wings were flexed upward by approximately 25 feet (7.6 meters) during the test and the fuselage was pressurized to 150 percent of its maximum normal operating condition.
In evaluating the success criteria for the test, Boeing specialists have been poring over the thousands of data points collected during the test to ensure that all parts of the airplane performed as expected.
"The airframe performed as designed and retained the required structural integrity. These results continue to validate the design of the 787 as we move toward certification," explained Fancher.
Source : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
"Successfully completing this test is a critical step in the certification of the 787. This is further validation that the 787 performs as expected, even in the most extreme circumstances," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program for Boeing Commercial Airplanes.
On March 28, loads were applied to the test unit to replicate 150 percent of the most extreme forces the airplane is ever expected to experience while in service. The wings were flexed upward by approximately 25 feet (7.6 meters) during the test and the fuselage was pressurized to 150 percent of its maximum normal operating condition.
In evaluating the success criteria for the test, Boeing specialists have been poring over the thousands of data points collected during the test to ensure that all parts of the airplane performed as expected.
"The airframe performed as designed and retained the required structural integrity. These results continue to validate the design of the 787 as we move toward certification," explained Fancher.
Source : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
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- As a follow up to the stress test story
- From: The Australian
- April 09, 2010 12:00AM
- QANTAS is hoping for an earlier delivery of its Boeing 787s after Boeing confirmed this week the success of a dramatic and crucial test.
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RB211's
Maybe I spent too many years in the Airforce flying Rolls powered rubbish. Perhaps too many years in the A/F and AirNZ doing the same. Just seems funny we have less probs with the CF6 (in-flight) than the RB211. But I'm not a vagineer. I just turnem' and burnem....
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Too many years in the Air Force flying RR rubbish?
But I thought you said that;
Curious as to what RR aircraft you flew for "years" in the Air Force that gave you "960 hours (mostly multi IR)" in '88?
But I thought you said that;
When ANZ was short of pilots in '88, I landed a job with 960 hours (mostly multi IR).
He may mean "Allison" engines which became a subsidiary of Rolls Royce some years later (1995). That would make him either a Trash-hauler or a Fish-head. 
The only other RNZAF aircraft that I can think of that use RR engines are the MB339C and the B757 but they came after 1988.
The only other RNZAF aircraft that I can think of that use RR engines are the MB339C and the B757 but they came after 1988.
Boeing 787 Flight-Test Program Progressing
The U.S. FAA granted Boeing expanded type inspection authorization (TIA) today
(Everett, Wash., April 20, 2010) -- The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) granted Boeing (NYSE: BA) expanded type inspection authorization (TIA) today, clearing the way for its personnel to fully participate in future test flights and for the collection of required flight-test data. Initial TIA was granted Feb. 11, which supported the collection of flutter certification data.
The expanded TIA marks the FAA's confirmation that the airplane and team are ready to collect additional certification data. Boeing achieved the expansion by demonstrating the readiness of the airplane throughout a variety of speeds, altitudes and configurations.
"This TIA expansion is another significant step toward delivering airplanes to our customers. We remain on track to deliver the first airplane to ANA this year," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program, Commercial Airplanes.
In addition to receiving expanded TIA, Boeing finalized the aerodynamic configuration of the 787.
"We have completed sufficient testing to decide that no additional changes to the external lines or shape of the airplane are required," said Fancher. "Having an airplane match its expected performance with so few changes is rare and speaks to the maturity of the design."
The 787 flight-test fleet logged its 500th hour of flying April 16. On Sunday, ZA003, the flight-test airplane outfitted with interior elements, landed in Florida, where it will go through extreme weather testing at McKinley Climatic Laboratory at Eglin Air Force Base.
Source : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
Boeing Completes First 787 GEnx Engine Runs
(Everett, Wash., May 12, 2010) -- The first General Electric GEnx engines on a Boeing (NYSE: BA) 787 Dreamliner came to life Monday with initial engine starts. Customers can choose between the GEnx engines and the Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 engines to power their 787s.
"This is another exciting step in our progress on the 787 test program," said Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 Program, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "Our partners at GE have worked diligently to ensure their engines are ready for the testing that is going to occur both before first flight of ZA005 and throughout the flight test program."
Source : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
ANA Pilots 1st Customer Crew to Fly Boeing 787 Dreamliner
(Seattle, May 13, 2010) -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) and two ANA (All Nippon Airways) pilots flew the Boeing 787 Dreamliner for the first time Wednesday. The airplane they flew is the first of six flight-test airplanes. The two-hour-and-40-minute flight took place over Washington state.
Flying the 787 for the first time were ANA pilots Capt. Masayuki Ishii, director of 787 pre-operations planning, and Capt. Masami Tsukamoto, manager of 787 pre-operations pilots. On board were Capt. Mike Carriker, Boeing 787 chief test pilot, Capt. Christine Walsh and Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of the 787 program, Boeing Commercial Airplanes.
"The flight was a customer demonstration for our launch customer's lead pilots to evaluate the 787," said Fancher. "We are extremely proud to have ANA on the flight, and have the opportunity to show what a great airplane the men and women of Boeing have created."
The flight was conducted under a special airworthiness certificate granted by the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration.
The 787 program was launched in April 2004 with a record order of 50 787's from ANA. ANA, which plays an active role as launch customer, is scheduled to take the first 787 delivery in the fourth quarter 2010.
During the flight, both pilots performed multiple takeoffs and landings as well as other maneuvers that allowed them to feel the airplane's characteristics. The pilots also gained experience with other 787 flight-deck features, including larger display screens, dual head-up displays and dual electronic flight bag.
"It was fantastic and an incredible experience," said Capt. Ishii. "ANA passengers are in for an incredible experience when they fly on the 787," he said.
"The flight was fantastic," said Capt. Tsukamoto. "I've been waiting for this day since we made the launch order, and today my dream came true."
During the flight, Carriker showed the ANA pilots, who are both rated on the Boeing 777, the similarities and differences between the two airplanes. Pending regulator approval, it will take as few as five days of training for 777 pilots to become qualified as 787 pilots.
Source : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
Pending regulator approval, it will take as few as five days of training for 777 pilots to become qualified as 787 pilots.
And when will a 787 simulator be available to commence training of crews?