Jetstar EBA 4 results. merged.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Pundit
I do not work for Jetstar - FACT
I don't work for anybody - FACT
Probably should read and not write on this thread - FACT
You started naming names on here - FACT
I have a good idea I know who you named - Likley Fact
Might be wise to think about it before you post such things
J
I do not work for Jetstar - FACT
I don't work for anybody - FACT
Probably should read and not write on this thread - FACT
You started naming names on here - FACT
I have a good idea I know who you named - Likley Fact
Might be wise to think about it before you post such things
J
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: DSS-46 (Canberra Region)
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leave the personalities out of it please.
Let's just tread very carefully here people. No outing of PPRuNers will be tolerated.
Should this thread degenerate to personal insults it will be deleted. It's up to you'all
Should this thread degenerate to personal insults it will be deleted. It's up to you'all
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: messemate way to bondi icebergs
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Chimbu Chuckles
That is one of the biggest assumptions I have ever read on these forums. THe NO voters voted for a chance to go to the bargening table again to get a better deal for the collective. Just cause this prospective EBA was to take all AWA members under the new EBA does not mean that there wont be a provision to do exactly the same in the next prospective EBA.
QF group enjoy knowing there costs bases and therefor as Jetstar grows it is imperitive when forecasting costs to have a fixed cost base not a variety of ever changing individual agreements.
Why not demand VB terms and conditions? Its a EBA bargining period, so this is the time you try and get what you as a GROUP think your worth.
When they are voting democatically under the EBA protocols why are they then selfish?
JETSTAR boyz n girls stay united - get what you deserve
Those pilots who voted No essentially voted against group solidarity.
QF group enjoy knowing there costs bases and therefor as Jetstar grows it is imperitive when forecasting costs to have a fixed cost base not a variety of ever changing individual agreements.
These very same people are demanding VB equivalent T&Cs but when asked why they don't just go and apply to VB say "Well I don't want to be away from home all the time".
When they are voting democatically under the EBA protocols why are they then selfish?
JETSTAR boyz n girls stay united - get what you deserve
Grandpa Aerotart
GC yes the economy has been and is currently booming..as I posted in another thread I think there is a better than even chance it won't be in 12 months time and if that is the case an opportunity will have been missed.
I think it is quite possibly true that the company initiated negotiations 12 mths ago because of pilot shortage worries...Not an unreasonable action on their part. In the last 12 mths though things have become clearer and it is clear to me, at least, that the company does not need to rush back to the table given current realities and future probabilities.
The current reality is virtually no one is leaving J* (I can think of 2-one was a mate who didn't like the AN check and fail mentality) and they have plenty of applications...I know a handful of very experienced applicants and a mate at Pac Blue says he is one of 20 just from there. I have chatted via skype to an airbus experienced pilot in South Africa who is just busting to get his acceptance email. Highly experienced A320 captains in Asia are ringing up their old AN mates in J* and asking for jobs.
I think you're all worth more...but the reality is I think EBA 4 was as good as you were going to get.
Maybe I am wrong...I actually hope so...but given what I know is going on in the background I don't think so.
Good luck all of you....I will not contribute on this topic again.
I think it is quite possibly true that the company initiated negotiations 12 mths ago because of pilot shortage worries...Not an unreasonable action on their part. In the last 12 mths though things have become clearer and it is clear to me, at least, that the company does not need to rush back to the table given current realities and future probabilities.
The current reality is virtually no one is leaving J* (I can think of 2-one was a mate who didn't like the AN check and fail mentality) and they have plenty of applications...I know a handful of very experienced applicants and a mate at Pac Blue says he is one of 20 just from there. I have chatted via skype to an airbus experienced pilot in South Africa who is just busting to get his acceptance email. Highly experienced A320 captains in Asia are ringing up their old AN mates in J* and asking for jobs.
I think you're all worth more...but the reality is I think EBA 4 was as good as you were going to get.
Maybe I am wrong...I actually hope so...but given what I know is going on in the background I don't think so.
Good luck all of you....I will not contribute on this topic again.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jabawocky, I am closer to this than you. In fact I voted YES
I should not have named an individual and for that I apologise to you all.
The JPC was voted in to represent us. I believe in democracy. If the JPC is incapable of re-negotiating the deal, don't put up the white flag and run for a self serving AWA, step aside and let a more professional group take on the task of representing all the pilots.
I should not have named an individual and for that I apologise to you all.
The JPC was voted in to represent us. I believe in democracy. If the JPC is incapable of re-negotiating the deal, don't put up the white flag and run for a self serving AWA, step aside and let a more professional group take on the task of representing all the pilots.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Pundit.....I have no doubt you are close to this.
Apology accepted. Just wanted to make clear I have no axe to grind but was not happy to see slanderous statements and names all in one sentence.
You just never know who is looking......and believe me, as i have come to find out, some here know a lot more than we do or think they do......
J
Apology accepted.
Just wanted to make clear I have no axe to grind but was not happy to see slanderous statements and names all in one sentence.You just never know who is looking......and believe me, as i have come to find out, some here know a lot more than we do or think they do......
J
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: sunny queensland
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What was the point of having an EBA vote in the first place??
The deal I thought was adequate in some areas but needed some changes to get through and the other 56% of Jetstar pilots thought the same. It is the first time that we have voted an EBA down. I was stunned to learn that 75 of my colleagues have already expressed an interest in going onto an AWA on the conditions that were voted down!. It seems if there is 100, the company will do it and why wouldn't they. Some of these people were most likely the same individuals who expressed outrage when AJ announced he would place all new hires on AWA's last year. Short memories for some.
The majority voted against, why not wait, let the dust settle and see if the company comes back to the table?? Isn't that how enterprise Bargaining is supposed to play out?! For methodical, systematic and calculating individuals there has been some real snap decisions.
So what if the company doesn't come back for months! If they had not of opened negotiation earlier this thread would not even exist. Our EBA didn't expire to September. Yep there would be more AWA's, (This seems to be the reason why negotiation was commenced earlier in the first place, though there was never any mention in the document about getting everyone back to the EBA), and the EBA would of been negotiated in the usual way.
Instead those who were dissatisfied with the result have now set a precedent which will mean any chance of us becoming a strong unified group disappear.
Once again it shows that we as pilots really are clueless and selfish when it comes to putting ourselves in a position of bargaining power. The management team who may have been disappointed with the voting must now be laughing their tits off.
The deal I thought was adequate in some areas but needed some changes to get through and the other 56% of Jetstar pilots thought the same. It is the first time that we have voted an EBA down. I was stunned to learn that 75 of my colleagues have already expressed an interest in going onto an AWA on the conditions that were voted down!. It seems if there is 100, the company will do it and why wouldn't they. Some of these people were most likely the same individuals who expressed outrage when AJ announced he would place all new hires on AWA's last year. Short memories for some.
The majority voted against, why not wait, let the dust settle and see if the company comes back to the table?? Isn't that how enterprise Bargaining is supposed to play out?! For methodical, systematic and calculating individuals there has been some real snap decisions.
So what if the company doesn't come back for months! If they had not of opened negotiation earlier this thread would not even exist. Our EBA didn't expire to September. Yep there would be more AWA's, (This seems to be the reason why negotiation was commenced earlier in the first place, though there was never any mention in the document about getting everyone back to the EBA), and the EBA would of been negotiated in the usual way.
Instead those who were dissatisfied with the result have now set a precedent which will mean any chance of us becoming a strong unified group disappear.
Once again it shows that we as pilots really are clueless and selfish when it comes to putting ourselves in a position of bargaining power. The management team who may have been disappointed with the voting must now be laughing their tits off.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not demand VB terms and conditions? Its a EBA bargining period, so this is the time you try and get what you as a GROUP think your worth.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: 1/12 Lord ST Botany ;)
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is untrue 'lets go rated'. The deal on the table was marginally under VB pay IF we did the overtime and IF the KPI and Bonus scheme % was pleasent. To suggest otherwise is false.
And people left Dragon, Cathay, EK, even Tiger to be indulge in this ....fight!!!
I was a bit disappointed last year when I got knocked back after an interview with JQ, but I now realise what a huge favour they did for me.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AWA factor
It would be intertesting to see what the vote would have been if the 50 or so pilots on AWA's were employed under the EBA. Something for AJ to mull over.
PS. Just to confirm, AJ never said he would offer anyone on an AWA the chance to be covered under the EBA, in fact he was very non-commital when questioned about it.
PS. Just to confirm, AJ never said he would offer anyone on an AWA the chance to be covered under the EBA, in fact he was very non-commital when questioned about it.
Hello all, very interesting post, but could someone explain to me why management would except these so called yes votes going to their own AWA.
I ask this because if you are on your own AWA you cant vote in the next upcoming EBA so instead of 54% voting no if the same guys voted no again (say if they were being shafted by the greedy minority) then the next no vote would be somewhere in the 90% region.
If protected industrial action would then take place, it really doesn’t matter if its 54% of the work force or 90%, the results as long as legal will be the same. Of coarse 90% of the work force doing the same thing is always better but unfortunately we seem to live in a working environment designed to reward the greedy and manipulative amongst us more than the logical and moral.
As a side note I don’t believe any AWA's will be offered it opens Pandora’s box of the unknown in many ways but that wont stop some managers help drive derision by implying they will be offered if a token number do come forward.
I ask this because if you are on your own AWA you cant vote in the next upcoming EBA so instead of 54% voting no if the same guys voted no again (say if they were being shafted by the greedy minority) then the next no vote would be somewhere in the 90% region.
If protected industrial action would then take place, it really doesn’t matter if its 54% of the work force or 90%, the results as long as legal will be the same. Of coarse 90% of the work force doing the same thing is always better but unfortunately we seem to live in a working environment designed to reward the greedy and manipulative amongst us more than the logical and moral.
As a side note I don’t believe any AWA's will be offered it opens Pandora’s box of the unknown in many ways but that wont stop some managers help drive derision by implying they will be offered if a token number do come forward.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, sad isn't it? These guys are carrying on worse than a bunch of school kids fighting in the playground.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Petriboy, no you can't read it anywhere because it was voted down by the majority but maybe one of those with high moral values and integrity that have approached the company to accept an AWA on those conditions against the wishes of the group as a whole may wish to post their contract here. SHAMEFUL
I am now truly disappointed I work for a company that employs these types.
One Qantas group, highly unlikely if Jetstar pilots as a group can't stick together
I am now truly disappointed I work for a company that employs these types.One Qantas group, highly unlikely if Jetstar pilots as a group can't stick together
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am now truly disappointed I work for a company that employs these types.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: flagrant arbour
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't quite understand the sense of desperation displayed by those pilots who are willing to accept the current J* management offer, given the excellent bargaining position in which the pilot group currently finds itself.
Don't be fooled by the claims that J* has plenty of qualified pilots knocking their doors down to get a job. I know of numerous experienced Capts who have recently rejected DEC job offers at J* simply due the fact the pay & conds are so sub-standard. This is a clear indication to J* management that what they offer is below market rate and that they must significantly improve things. Furthermore, the interview amounted to little more than a hard sell of how wonderful J* is and future opportunities offered etc. They are desperate for suitably qualified pilots or else why would they behave in such an ingratiating manner to prospective employees?
Those J* pilots rushing to sign an AWA would be well advised to review recent interviews and statements by Dep PM Julia Gillard and wait for the announcement to parliament on Wed 13Feb08 regarding future workplace arrangements. As of Mid yr at the latest...'The transitional workplace arrangements bill will ban new Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) and replace the Howard government's fairness test with a "no disadvantage" test.' It seems the intent is of course to abolish the Workchoices bill and thus AWAs for those earning <$100K. Though not all J* pilots would fall under this ruling, any workplace where >50% of employees wish to have collective bargaining representation must be allowed to do so. Existing AWAs will be honoured, which means some employees will be stuck on an AWA until 2013! Do you honestly believe Management would offer you a long term deal as a favour, simply cos they're good guys? Things to consider:
1. Pay & Conds. Do you really believe there will be minimal wage rises over the next 4 or so yrs? Aus is steadily aligning itself more closely with the booming Asia region which looks to be largely resilient to any US downturn. Expat pilots are becoming a prized commodity up here, which in turn puts pressure on the Aus airlines. With rising cost of living and interest rates, will you continue to be happy stuck with your meagre % wage rise and couple of extra days off as currently offered? Will you be pleased to see all your EBA co-workers steadily receive significantly better conditions than you on your contracted AWA? Do you really think your benevolent management will allow you to dissolve your AWA and jump onto a better EBA deal? I doubt you'll be able to have your cake and eat it too.
2. Promotions/Career. Those F/Os who think they will somehow guarantee themselves a better deal or min time to command by appeasing the will of management and accepting lesser conditions, should consider why they are still offering DEC and now recruiting foreign nationals under special employment visas. Appeasing management does nothing to better your life in the med to long term, it just allows breathing rm for them to institute these other mercenary tactics, which will only delay your Captaincy and frustrate your life as an F/O. Surprisingly, job security seemed to be touted as a reason for voting 'yes'. If worse does come to worst, who do you think management will be more easily able to retrench - isolated individuals coming out of an AWA, or those protected by a solid union representation under an EBA?
Stick together, provide a unified front to management and force them to treat you as professionals. This is the only way you can realistically defend your jobs in the face of rapacious, divide and conquer management tactics. It's time to see the big picture. Pilots scrambling for individual gain will only lead to disappointment for everyone in the end.
Don't be fooled by the claims that J* has plenty of qualified pilots knocking their doors down to get a job. I know of numerous experienced Capts who have recently rejected DEC job offers at J* simply due the fact the pay & conds are so sub-standard. This is a clear indication to J* management that what they offer is below market rate and that they must significantly improve things. Furthermore, the interview amounted to little more than a hard sell of how wonderful J* is and future opportunities offered etc. They are desperate for suitably qualified pilots or else why would they behave in such an ingratiating manner to prospective employees?
Those J* pilots rushing to sign an AWA would be well advised to review recent interviews and statements by Dep PM Julia Gillard and wait for the announcement to parliament on Wed 13Feb08 regarding future workplace arrangements. As of Mid yr at the latest...'The transitional workplace arrangements bill will ban new Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) and replace the Howard government's fairness test with a "no disadvantage" test.' It seems the intent is of course to abolish the Workchoices bill and thus AWAs for those earning <$100K. Though not all J* pilots would fall under this ruling, any workplace where >50% of employees wish to have collective bargaining representation must be allowed to do so. Existing AWAs will be honoured, which means some employees will be stuck on an AWA until 2013! Do you honestly believe Management would offer you a long term deal as a favour, simply cos they're good guys? Things to consider:
1. Pay & Conds. Do you really believe there will be minimal wage rises over the next 4 or so yrs? Aus is steadily aligning itself more closely with the booming Asia region which looks to be largely resilient to any US downturn. Expat pilots are becoming a prized commodity up here, which in turn puts pressure on the Aus airlines. With rising cost of living and interest rates, will you continue to be happy stuck with your meagre % wage rise and couple of extra days off as currently offered? Will you be pleased to see all your EBA co-workers steadily receive significantly better conditions than you on your contracted AWA? Do you really think your benevolent management will allow you to dissolve your AWA and jump onto a better EBA deal? I doubt you'll be able to have your cake and eat it too.
2. Promotions/Career. Those F/Os who think they will somehow guarantee themselves a better deal or min time to command by appeasing the will of management and accepting lesser conditions, should consider why they are still offering DEC and now recruiting foreign nationals under special employment visas. Appeasing management does nothing to better your life in the med to long term, it just allows breathing rm for them to institute these other mercenary tactics, which will only delay your Captaincy and frustrate your life as an F/O. Surprisingly, job security seemed to be touted as a reason for voting 'yes'. If worse does come to worst, who do you think management will be more easily able to retrench - isolated individuals coming out of an AWA, or those protected by a solid union representation under an EBA?
Stick together, provide a unified front to management and force them to treat you as professionals. This is the only way you can realistically defend your jobs in the face of rapacious, divide and conquer management tactics. It's time to see the big picture. Pilots scrambling for individual gain will only lead to disappointment for everyone in the end.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Casablanca
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The MAJORITY of Jetstar pilots are disgusted by the selfish actions of the MINORITY who have chosen to seek short-term financial gain at the expense of long-term solidarity.
There is now an unprecedented level of interest among the rank-and-file in affiliating with an appropriate industrial body, be it AIPA, AFAP or, preferably, both working together.
Good will come of this unfortunate situation and perhaps it has taken such a blatant example of the self-serving idiocy of some to spur the silent remainder into action.
There is now an unprecedented level of interest among the rank-and-file in affiliating with an appropriate industrial body, be it AIPA, AFAP or, preferably, both working together.
Good will come of this unfortunate situation and perhaps it has taken such a blatant example of the self-serving idiocy of some to spur the silent remainder into action.