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Merged: Jetstar EBA 4

Old 29th Feb 2008, 02:07
  #281 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Casablanca
Posts: 91
There are many Jetstar pilots who understand the benefits AIPA can bring to their professional lives. There are many more who are beginning to.

If this vote is successful, the likes of Led Zeppelin will stop talking with such vitriol and may even start to make concilliatory noises towards those who dare to think differently. He and his camp will have the ascendancy and will feel justified and relieved.

If it is unsuccessful, I have no doubt he and his ilk will ignore the validity of the democratic vote and do just what they did last time; go to the company looking for an individual agreement. It is my strong belief that management will not, however, come to the party. It will be up to the remainder of us (the majority) to look past their selfish behaviour and provide them with the united front they need to ultimately get their coveted pay-rise.

Either way, rest assured that this entire process will have a positive outcome. That is, the increased awareness that every pilot needs an effective, properly structured and disciplined union.
flyingins is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 02:23
  #282 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101

Your fears are not based in reality. Itís all been answered before and itís becoming quite futile and pointless if you wonít actually read the posts of those that respond to you. Itís quite one sided when others respond to the points you raise, opening discussion and you ignore them and instead choose to just repeat the same illogical rant to which they have previously answered. This shows weakness in your argument. What also shows weakness in your argument is when others ask you a question and you ignore it and just repeat the rant. So for the third time;

ďWhat is this terrible history you have with AIPA that you speak of when itís obvious from your previous posts that you have been at Jet* for a maximum of 13 months? (In your post dated 21 Dec 2006 you discuss the lateness of your Emirates January 2007 roster.Ē

If you canít answer this I can only conclude YOU are not being up-front with your motives.

Ps: Nicely put Flyingins. The second scenario will hopefully be the new definition of irony. One day they may even thank you.
Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 02:32
  #283 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
AWA Abolish

Hi All

With the new EBA being voted on (This week I believe). How will this effect new starters who have signed an AWA in the last month of so...???

Ang737 is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 02:53
  #284 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Darwin
Posts: 321
Supply and Demand

Sherm, why do the costs have to trickle down through Jetstar. I hear this argument all the time "If the Pilots \ Engineers get a big payrise then every other employee group will want one". So what! The answer to that argument is that there is no shortage of baggage handlers, check in staff, flight attendants etc and this is unskilled labor.

What is happening is the management, (through their inability and lack of desire to explain simple supply and demand), have made their problem the Pilots' \ Engineers' problem. It's about time it stopped.

Remember, low cost carriers do not mean low cost pilots (SWA, Ryanair, Easyjet etc.). The Pilots employed by Jetstar deserve better from their management and certainly deserve better from their Pilots' Council.

The AFAP is a dead duck in the major airline arena. It is there to provide tenure to 2 long serving staff members. The Virgin guys do their own thing, the Jetstar guys do their own thing, the Eastern and Sunstate guys would like to do their own thing but anyone with any potential to do so has already left, is in the process of leaving, or is not political (Jarse).

Unity is what will stop Dixon, Joyce and Oldmeadow from being rewarded with your salaries in their bonus payments. If you can't see who the real enemy is, then I am sorry but you deserve all you get.

Last edited by What The; 29th Feb 2008 at 02:53. Reason: grammar
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Old 29th Feb 2008, 02:56
  #285 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Only a guess but I'd say it would depend on the outcome. I'd doubt anyone would know at this point. Maybe ring the various associations and see what their IR reps say. Might help determine how you'd want to vote.
Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 03:50
  #286 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NFA
Posts: 2
From todays Austalian- Business Section

With International running costs 40 per cent lower than those of Qantas, Jetstar's competitive power is strong.
"We have managed to keep costs much tighter," Mr Westaway says.
"We have managed to keep overheads lower through the use of IT. Our people are highly skilled so we can do more with less people."
And, while still competitive, Jetstar's pay rates are lower than those of Qantas employees. "A Jetstar captain's pay is probably 40 to 50 per cent less than a Qantas captains pay," Mr Westaway said.

You folk at Jetstar need to drop the paranoia about the AIPA, and look a little closer to Bourke Street for those who are constantly lowering your expectations via scare campaigns, while advancing themselves. This goes for both your managers, and those on your representative association benefitting from miraculous rises to fame and glory.

Think long, hard and broadly before you cast your vote for what you want for the next 5 years!
Cursed is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 04:05
  #287 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 56
Posts: 1,543
Ask yourselves a few questions:

Q: Are you as "good" a Pilot as Qantas short/longhaul guys?

Q: Why do you accept [40-50%??!] less than QF shorthaul/longhaul awards?

Q: How much do some others in your company earn compared to QF?

A: I can't say about first 2 Questions but know first hand that some earn MORE!
Tankengine is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 12:05
  #288 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: MEL
Age: 52
Posts: 131
Go grab a calculator.

J* expects to move 7,5mil passengers over the next 12 months.

If the pilots want (let's grab a good number!), say AUS$15000/year increase across the board - Yeah! That would mean a 20cent/100pilots per ticket, price increase.

So 600 pilots will mean a AUS$ 1,20 increase in ticket price etc.

Since pay is tax deductable for a company this would come down to below $1,00 per ticket increase for 600 pilots to earn $15000 extra EACH!

Now the problem is, the management see 7,5mil people giving $1,00 each after tax, thats a cool number they can have for themselves!

Why give it to the pilots?

YOU have to MAKE THEM.

To do that you HAVE TO work together as a J* group first, and then as a bigger group together with the other airline's pilots.

You can not do it the other way around, by first working together with the other airline's pilots and then as a local group, first get the J* pilots together.
When you act as a front inside the airline you can achieve ANYTHING ( even get AIPA to represent you ).
777Contrail is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 14:58
  #289 (permalink)  

Grandpa Aerotart
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SWP
Posts: 4,620
Great last post.

Why pilots who won't support JPC think (not) supporting AIPA will be better beggars belief.

The reactions from my mates out here in expatland is interesting when I tell em 56% of J* pilots voted against a substantial payrise and getting everyone on an EBA.

They look kind of strange, confused even "WHY?"

Well some because AIPA/AFAP said vote NO. Some because they felt like sending a message on behalf of pilots not yet employed who were going to be paid 5% less for the first 12 months. Some because they are all worked up about what the CEO gets paid...and some probably just don't know exactly why.

One reaction was, and I quote. "**** ME! Say Yes to the pay rise and fix the other stuff this industry you just never say NO to a pay rise".

It just has me stuffed why anyone would vote NO to a payrise and having all J* pilots on the same EBA. Is that not a starting point towards what the QF pilots say is AIPAs GAOL, with no downside risk if AIPA cannot deliver?
Chimbu chuckles is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 20:29
  #290 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OZ
Posts: 136
Not much you can fix once you're Locked into a 5 year EBA.
OBNO is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 20:42
  #291 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 182

What if the offer was 50 cents and a Mars Bar, are you suggesting take it, because it is a rise, and get the rest later?????

You have no idea of the realities of Enterprise Bargaining.

The logic of take a pay rise now and fix stuff later shows a very poor understanding of the industrial landscape in Australia, and that includes the changes that may come under the new Gov't.

There is no power at all for 5 years once this thing is locked away. None. Nothing.

The management is desperate to lock this away, it gives them certainty in a tightening pilot market, and certainty is gold to them.

According to one of the sycophants "AJ gave his word" that if it got voted down they would not come back to the table until September. Well his word is worth as much as I suspected, he's back with great haste, straight into bed with the AFAP (could you imagine that 2 years ago!) and a re-vote.

If the J* pilots are smart they'll vote it down again and he'll be back. Patience, at many times, is a virtue, this is one of those times.
speeeedy is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 20:53
  #292 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Prison Island (WA)
Posts: 1,343

The reactions from my mates out here in expatland is interesting
If you're in "expatland" why the hell do you care so much about this EBA and why are you so critical of AIPA and QF pilots for getting involved? I may have missed it earlier in this thread but would I be way off the mark if I suggested you might be interested in a DEC with JQ sometime in the future, which is dependent on this EBA being voted up?

You show just how out of touch you are when you suggest that a reaction of -
"**** ME! Say Yes to the pay rise and fix the other stuff this industry you just never say NO to a pay rise".
- is justified. It isn't! An EBA is an EBA is an EBA, it's an agreement between a group of employees and their employer which is binding, in this case, for 5 years. You can't just easily fix stuff later! It has to be fixed now.

So Chimbu, I ask you what your vested interest is in all of this...let us know or disappear off back to "expatland" as you put it and keep your nose out of this.

Transition Layer is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 21:34
  #293 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: NSW
Posts: 65
On my calculator its worth 38k just for me this year alone, more than any J*eba offered in the past.
Plenty of money slipped in the back door through retention bonus, profit share, 50% flight pay paxing credits ,credits for Eps, sim and more days off.
Anyone who thinks they are going to get a big payrise in base over cpi is dreaming. Has not happened with QF F/A,s ,not the engineers or even the QF pilots. Even our saviours in parliment are not supportive of rises above cpi.
J* boys and girls had there chance in previous eba,s now baulk at someting that actually puts some coin in pockets.
Ultimately the market is setting conditions and guess what the J* attrition rate is less than Dixon's quoted 3% for qantas so things can't be that bad.
Jet Jockey is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 23:15
  #294 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101


Thatís a great story of your mateís response but if all you told him was that heíd get a pay rise and not the full story of the situation here itís hardly a surprising reaction. What heís shown is that heís totally uninformed of whatís at stake for all of us and the positives of what can come out of unity. If this wasnít the case then itís actually a great example of why we need to get together to help protect ourselves from the company recruiting blokes like this as DECís who will take the job on ANY terms.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2008, 23:21
  #295 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 101

I've said it before but it's not the market that's setting conditions if you take this deal, it's Jet*/QF management. That's a totally different thing. 'The Market' actually allows us in times of a pilot shortage and unprecedented airline growth in this reagion to negotiate a much better deal if we get together and do it as a group. That's what management is trying to prevent by inciting division.

Nuthinondaclock is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2008, 01:08
  #296 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: australasia
Posts: 412
Good folks, I sit on the sideline as a soon to be retired veteran of a few campaigns.
I am dismayed at the apparent lack of learning achieved over the past 20 odd years.

Throughout this thread there are calls for unity. They come from all sides of the argument. All either espouse its virtue or at least acknowledge its value. I cannot recall any post advocating dislocation of the pilot group.
Frankly I think unity is a utopian dream. The aims and interests of the various protagonists are too diverse, and in some cases mutually exclusive, for a pure unity to exist. The only common ground in this argument is that individual deals and action are detrimental to the system. It has always been thus. Strangely, although management donít seem to recognise or acknowledge it, in the long term a rational, cohesive, unified, employee group is a far easier beast to deal with than a band of individual mavericks.
So if we can all agree that unity should be a goal, and that the concept of pure unity is not a realistic possibility, lets look at the objectives and history of unity within our industry.

In the blue corner we have AIPA.
Operating under a mandate from the QF mainline pilots to look after their interests
Rejected unity with the Australian industry when (soon to be management) Westwood and Cant spat the dummy and walked out on AFAP circa 1982 (or thereabouts)
Rejected unity with, and effectively limited the career opportunities of, the Eastern, Sunstate pilot group
Rejected unity with Impulse (J*) pilot group, in an unsuccessful attempt to limit that groupís career opportunities
Under threat of restriction of their opportunities has seen the light and wishes to unify all Q group pilots under the one umbrella to the benefit of all ??

In the red corner we have AFAP
Operating under a mandate from an amalgamation of diverse pilot groups from the entire industry
Was a unified umbrella over the whole industry, until busted open by a single interest group (AIPA) circa 1982
Has a history of trying to keep the industry under one cohesive umbrella
Has no vested interest in the promotion of one group of members over any other group of members
Having suffered from the most vicious government/company industrial assault ever perpetrated in Australia, has survived to fight another day (in contrast to their protagonists none of whom exist any longer)

In the green corner we have the JPC
A single interest group operating under a mandate from the J* pilot body
Sought unity with the Q mainline group but was abandoned at the altar
A relatively under funded and inexperienced organisation that has had difficulty reining in the aspirations of individuals whom it should rightly represent.

And in the yellow corner we have the free marketeers.
A diverse minority who will pretend to offer allegiance to whomever appears to offer the best deal, only to turn their back at the slightest hint of a better deal by going it alone or changing allegiance

Gentle folks , if you look at history, and the objectives of each of the groups, the best long term option is to have a specific council under the umbrella of an organisation that has no vested interest in a preferential outcome.

Too often this industry has seen the results of short term gain and longterm pain.

Vote wisely

maui is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2008, 01:14
  #297 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 137
Qantas Freight has just awarded a 6 year contract to Atlas to operate three 744's.Where is AIPA protecting and promoting the interests of their present members and how can those in J* and the regionals reasonably conclude that they(AIPA) could do any better for them???
Don Diego is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2008, 01:51
  #298 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NSW
Posts: 131
For the information of Ppruner's, AIPA's President has posted the following on another website:

Any Group pilot wanting to know more about what AIPA's GM and I had to say this week about Consolidating all Qantas Group pilots, Jetstar EBA 4 and why this is important for the future prosperinty of us all can listen to the audio recording available from: mid=468&forcedownload=true

Should anyone have difficulty with the directlink, try hooking up off the public area of the AIPA Website at:
Gingerbread is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2008, 01:57
  #299 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 100
Nothin, the future you are promoting for J* pilots is one directed by AIPA for the main betterment of AIPA members. If you get your way the only way into a decent job in Australia would be via the QF selection process.

Each successful pilot would then be offerred a job at the bottom of one of the QF group companies and then, subject to various type/position/base freezes approved by AIPA, would agonisingly work their way up to the holy grail, a gig in mainline if they live long enough, all the while being by-passed by other new recruits fortunate enough to be offerred an initial entry on a better/bigger/faster/shinier type.

So no future other than to go DJ or overseas for anyone not fortunate enough to be one of the "chosen".

Meanwhile most of the 787 expansion in J* would quite naturally go to the QF pilots as J* wouild no longer be able to recruit externally, thereby denying any expat Aussie the opportunity to come home to a decent job. J* would no longer be able to offer good command prospects to its newly recruited fo's.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with AIPA trying to achieve that for its members but I don't think it would bode well for J* pilots or the industry in general. A little balance is a good thing.

What you seem to be suggesting is that J* pilots should reject a better pay deal, more days off, profit share type bonus for sharing the good times, and other benefits so that QF Fo's and So's can get access to accellerated commands in J*. I can't see anything in it for the J* pilots in the short to medium term. It certainly is a big ask from a group that seems to have done alright so far for themselves, without external influences trying to determine their future.
TurbTool is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2008, 02:21
  #300 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 22
Maybe everyone should be aware of trolls on this thread.

maui - your post lost any shred of credibility when you stated "...(soon to be management) Westwood and Cant...". Neither of these two men were ever management in QF. However one wonders why you have conveniently left out the name of the second President of AIPA, Kearns, who did become a long time senior manager in QF. Maybe some of the posts here are actually being done by management to cloud the issues!

TurbTool - Quote "...type/position/base freezes approved by AIPA..." You obviously have absolutely no idea (or choose to ignore) how a GOAL as suggested by AIPA would work.

Last edited by Just Relaxin; 1st Mar 2008 at 02:35.
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