Latest Qf Incident,where Will All This End
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What again?
Now is this an incident or a near miss ? Gotta love the Flying Kangaroo.
I did hear the RAT wasn't deployed due to an MEL.
Rumour has it if they spent more time fixing planes and less time counting their cash things might be different.
I did hear the RAT wasn't deployed due to an MEL.
Rumour has it if they spent more time fixing planes and less time counting their cash things might be different.
Last edited by another superlame; 9th Jan 2008 at 04:06. Reason: grammar
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Well done by that crew. Bet there was some adrenalin. Great future LOFT training there.
Few years back when I was at Korean, an American 747 classic freighter Captain picked up an a/c at Gimpo that had been loaded in heavy rain and something didn't work with the water shields/seals (or something!) in the E and E. Result, a mini tidal wave as they accelerated. As he approached V1, one by one the 3 INS red lights came n and he lost the lot. Fortunately being "old school" he could fly by standby a/h and magnetic compass and timed turns so got it back. Think the company gave him a round the world First Class ticket etc. Goes to show though that these things can happen (remember Sioux City?) and that sims should be able to replicate it and give us all some exposure.
Few years back when I was at Korean, an American 747 classic freighter Captain picked up an a/c at Gimpo that had been loaded in heavy rain and something didn't work with the water shields/seals (or something!) in the E and E. Result, a mini tidal wave as they accelerated. As he approached V1, one by one the 3 INS red lights came n and he lost the lot. Fortunately being "old school" he could fly by standby a/h and magnetic compass and timed turns so got it back. Think the company gave him a round the world First Class ticket etc. Goes to show though that these things can happen (remember Sioux City?) and that sims should be able to replicate it and give us all some exposure.
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Also, the Airbus 330/340's have a hydraulic motor generator that run off the green system. There is a green EDP on each eng/wing. If one eng can turn you don't run out of electrons.
If the eng stops (ie. gliding) you can drop the RAT. It will also run the emeg gen.
You only need the batts (2) below 50Kts when the RAT gives out.
Of course, after all that you are down to the magnetic compass, torch and mobile phone (and a prayer).
If the eng stops (ie. gliding) you can drop the RAT. It will also run the emeg gen.
You only need the batts (2) below 50Kts when the RAT gives out.
Of course, after all that you are down to the magnetic compass, torch and mobile phone (and a prayer).
OliV2
What powers the fuel pumps - engine, right?
What powers the fuel pumps - engine, right?
another superlame, Ram Air Turbines (RATs) are only fitted to twin engined aircraft as four engined aircraft are deemed to have enough redundency to not require one. They didn't take into account flooding of all GCU's.
Speculation about starting the APU for electrical power has a couple of issues:
1. The B744 APU is not certified to start in the air.
2. The APU starter motor would draw a huge current from both the Main and APU batteries and if the start attempt failed then there would be even less battery power available for the essential items to get the aircraft on the ground.
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Wasn't there another issue very recently with a 744 that had a Singapore C check.
Something to do with freezing drain pipes due to an oversight during Sngapore maintenance resulting in a back up of fluids spilling out of the upper deck galley floor drains...................?
The holes in the swiss cheese seem to be getting so close to lining up that you can see light.
Oh well, never mind we are making lots of money.
Something to do with freezing drain pipes due to an oversight during Sngapore maintenance resulting in a back up of fluids spilling out of the upper deck galley floor drains...................?
The holes in the swiss cheese seem to be getting so close to lining up that you can see light.
Oh well, never mind we are making lots of money.
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Thanks GB - Makes sense. In terms of APU, it can be operated at below 20k and provide bleed air below 15k, but has to be running already.....is that correct? In other words, can not be started mid-flight.
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DZ earlier someone said:
Murphy's Law?
Or didn't some highly qualified maintenance personnel not complete and/or inspect the quality of a maintenance task correctly? (regardless of where the maintenance was undertaken)
Lets wait until the inquiry is complete prior to mischievous speculation about poor design and avaricious legal eagles.
Remind me again `how many million problem free flight hours has the Boeing 747 flown?’
DK
Boeing builds a better airplane
I heard it was caused by water from the PC galley flooding down onto the E racks because the large fibreglass drain/water barrier was not re-installed after the last C chk.
Or didn't some highly qualified maintenance personnel not complete and/or inspect the quality of a maintenance task correctly? (regardless of where the maintenance was undertaken)
Lets wait until the inquiry is complete prior to mischievous speculation about poor design and avaricious legal eagles.
Remind me again `how many million problem free flight hours has the Boeing 747 flown?’
DK
Boeing builds a better airplane
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Beg to differ blackhander, Rats provide both limited elec and hyd pwr. Do some research on the glimli glider (Air Canada 767 I think) to see an example of their value in a twin engine aircraft.
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The last aircraft out of SYD Heavy was OJI I know I signed it out.
Would have thought all the 400s that went through Sydney would have had another major check by now.
QF 747-400s don't have rats or HMG with 4 IDG your aren't supposed to need them.
Everything should also switch over automatically when power fails flaps/slats would have kept going as they are Hydraulic and pneumatic.
Would have thought all the 400s that went through Sydney would have had another major check by now.
QF 747-400s don't have rats or HMG with 4 IDG your aren't supposed to need them.
Everything should also switch over automatically when power fails flaps/slats would have kept going as they are Hydraulic and pneumatic.
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Well done to the crew! Maybe they too are worth more than 3% 
Shows what experience and decication can do when almost everything else has been taken away
I know what all the punters would have been thinking on TD.
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it has been confirmed that the drip shield above the e1 shelf rack had a large crack through it. allowing water to drip on to all gcu's and bus power control units-rendering them inop- over 5 pages of eicas msg,s were coming as power was being lost. it has also been confirmed that the fwd galley drain lines were all blocked with -you guessed it coffee. water backing up and flowing under the floor- there was also an estimated 30 mins of battery time -
outstanding flying from the crew
outstanding flying from the crew
Last edited by soldier of fortune; 9th Jan 2008 at 08:10.
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I'm almost choking on the misinformation on this forum....
One hour of battery time? Try 30 minutes (ref QF Boeing Maintenance Manual)
The Boeing 767 RAT provides hydraulics only and it CAN'T run the Hydraulic Motor Generators to provide electricity (there are check valves in the system which won't allow this). HMG's use so much power, sometimes even the electric demand pumps won't run them. The Gimli Glider must have been getting electrics from another source (pilots have reported that fast windmilling engines sometimes reach the critical 50 or so % N2/N3 required for IDG ops).
Airbusses and 777's, however, may have RAT's which provide both electrics and hydraulics, but don't quote me on that.
Yes, there is suction/gravity feed on a 747-400. This is only available for main tanks 1~4, but enough to get you to the nearest airport.
The type of 744 involved in this incident would still have had a Standby Altimeter and Airspeed Indicator after the batteries had died (the Altimeter needs power for the vibrator to overcome stiction, but I'm sure the crew would be quite able to tap it from time to time). There would be no background lighting for these instruments, but there are plenty of torches on board. There would be no heat for the pitot static system, however. You wouldn't want to fly through rain/cloud at high altitudes.
The biggest problems would be attitude and navigation. There would be no attitude after the IRS's lost their power and the Standby Horizon gyro had run down. (Note: Different aircraft type, but Qantas' 747-400ER have an Integrated Standby Flight Display which has it's own dedicated battery supply which does lasts for hours. ER's are flown on the longer oceanic routes, so this would be plus. Attitude is available from this instrument.
I can quite believe that any company undergoing great change would be more susceptible to this kind of error (people who are about to lose their jobs are not going to be focussing on what they are doing).
Re putting a galley above an equipment centre... There is more than one safeguard.
1) A drain system designed to take water away from faulty galley devices such as coffee makers, water boilers, etc.
2) Sealed floor panels in galley areas
3) Protective drip-trays mounted above the electronic equipment
4) Inbuilt redundancy in electronic devices
All of these would have had to have failed before you lost 4 generators. Incidentally, rumour has it that overseas maintenance people working on QF aircraft were omitting the protective floor barriers in some areas (although I can't say which areas were involved).
As all QF engineers know.. you have to line up all the holes in the swiss cheese before you get a catastrophic failure
Incidentally, it's highly embarrassing to hear the faulty information a supposed "Qantas engineer" supplied to the newspapers. I would suggest that he needed re-training... but we all know that the bean counters decimated the training budget
Rgds.
NSEU
One hour of battery time? Try 30 minutes (ref QF Boeing Maintenance Manual)
The Boeing 767 RAT provides hydraulics only and it CAN'T run the Hydraulic Motor Generators to provide electricity (there are check valves in the system which won't allow this). HMG's use so much power, sometimes even the electric demand pumps won't run them. The Gimli Glider must have been getting electrics from another source (pilots have reported that fast windmilling engines sometimes reach the critical 50 or so % N2/N3 required for IDG ops).
Airbusses and 777's, however, may have RAT's which provide both electrics and hydraulics, but don't quote me on that.
Yes, there is suction/gravity feed on a 747-400. This is only available for main tanks 1~4, but enough to get you to the nearest airport.
The type of 744 involved in this incident would still have had a Standby Altimeter and Airspeed Indicator after the batteries had died (the Altimeter needs power for the vibrator to overcome stiction, but I'm sure the crew would be quite able to tap it from time to time). There would be no background lighting for these instruments, but there are plenty of torches on board. There would be no heat for the pitot static system, however. You wouldn't want to fly through rain/cloud at high altitudes.
The biggest problems would be attitude and navigation. There would be no attitude after the IRS's lost their power and the Standby Horizon gyro had run down. (Note: Different aircraft type, but Qantas' 747-400ER have an Integrated Standby Flight Display which has it's own dedicated battery supply which does lasts for hours. ER's are flown on the longer oceanic routes, so this would be plus. Attitude is available from this instrument.
I can quite believe that any company undergoing great change would be more susceptible to this kind of error (people who are about to lose their jobs are not going to be focussing on what they are doing).
Re putting a galley above an equipment centre... There is more than one safeguard.
1) A drain system designed to take water away from faulty galley devices such as coffee makers, water boilers, etc.
2) Sealed floor panels in galley areas
3) Protective drip-trays mounted above the electronic equipment
4) Inbuilt redundancy in electronic devices
All of these would have had to have failed before you lost 4 generators. Incidentally, rumour has it that overseas maintenance people working on QF aircraft were omitting the protective floor barriers in some areas (although I can't say which areas were involved).
As all QF engineers know.. you have to line up all the holes in the swiss cheese before you get a catastrophic failure
Incidentally, it's highly embarrassing to hear the faulty information a supposed "Qantas engineer" supplied to the newspapers. I would suggest that he needed re-training... but we all know that the bean counters decimated the training budget
Rgds.
NSEU
Can any of the Engineers in the room let me know what is left when operating on the Standby power? Obviously the Standby Flight Instruments. Is that it?
None of my books give much info. Obviously a little knowledge is considered a dangerous thing.
In the sim everything invariably comes back - within 30 seconds or so - when you do the checklist and you never get to the stage of operating on the standby for lengthy periods.
I would be interested to know what they would have actually had available and what difficulties may have arisen operating on the standby electrics for an extended period.
Cheers.
None of my books give much info. Obviously a little knowledge is considered a dangerous thing.
In the sim everything invariably comes back - within 30 seconds or so - when you do the checklist and you never get to the stage of operating on the standby for lengthy periods.
I would be interested to know what they would have actually had available and what difficulties may have arisen operating on the standby electrics for an extended period.
Cheers.
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Glad the aircraft got onto the ground safely.
It is sincerely hoped that the situation never arises again.
Now, should someone ask the obvious?
Does any other Boeing model have a similar electrical cabinet/close to fluid transmission systems?
And hopefully not the B787 electrical layout as that aircraft will be even more reliant on "electrotechnology systems" integrity.
Mike
It is sincerely hoped that the situation never arises again.
Now, should someone ask the obvious?
Does any other Boeing model have a similar electrical cabinet/close to fluid transmission systems?
And hopefully not the B787 electrical layout as that aircraft will be even more reliant on "electrotechnology systems" integrity.
Mike
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I believe its approximately 45 minutes of standby battery power. thats what we learnt on course. I would have to say that QANTAS would have to be the most blessed airline in the world. The tech log shows that the cathay engineers only replaced G.C.U. 2, G.C.U 3 AND B.C.U 1.. i thought that they would of had to replace all G.C.U's, but then a again im only a greaser