Air NZ may fly jets in regions
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I reckon!!! 
If that really is the case... I'll go get a few Q400s myself and start up an airline and eat ERJs for breakfast....
You sure it wasn't Iwi Jet or what ever that went for those?
They said they couldn't find a favorable lease agreement nor get the ERJ quick enough, hence their shift to the BAE 146
If that really is the case... I'll go get a few Q400s myself and start up an airline and eat ERJs for breakfast....
You sure it wasn't Iwi Jet or what ever that went for those?
They said they couldn't find a favorable lease agreement nor get the ERJ quick enough, hence their shift to the BAE 146
Last edited by Cypher; 5th Dec 2007 at 02:08.
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New E-145s are hardly built at all by Embraer now. New build 145s are now built in Hainan, China. If this one did turn out to be true, this plane would push up the cost of flying to regional centres to the point where people will drive instead. Bring back passenger trains.
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(I'm pretty sure the B737s still fly a lot of domestic in NZ
AKL-WLG-AKL
AKL-CHC-AKL
AKL-DUD-AKL
AKL-ZQN-AKL
ROT-CHC
CHC-WLG-CHC
CHC-ZQN-CHC
CHC-ZQN-ROT-CHC
Looks like a pretty substanial route structure for the B737 to me.)
You are right about those, but CHC-WLG is mainly an ATR route. Qantas will be restarting 737 service and Pacific Blue have thrown 737-800s at the route, which is a bit of a waste of a big plane on a route that is 189 miles. No question, on routes as short as that the ATR is the best plane. There must be some routes that are so short that they would be too short for a high performance TP like a Q400. AirNZ could already use Q300s if they did not mind losing a few seats compared with ATR. Or if Qantas feel like doing NZ services with more frequencies they could bring some Q300s here as they are displaced from Australian service by their Q400s.
Yesterday we were talking about how far is too far in a Q400. Some airlines do use Q400s on routes of 600 miles Canberra-Brisbane. There must be a spot somewhere that the 100 seater jets start to win over fast TPs. I don't think the manufacturers or the airlines are going to share that data in a forum. Size does matter for the jet. If 50 seater jets and 70 seater jets cost as much as big jets to operate, that shows that Qantas and AirNZ have been right to reject them.
If the 100 seater E-190 is starting to prove itself in North America and Europe - reliability, operating costs and passenger appeal - local operators will have to ask what can this plane do that Q400s and 737-300s cannot.
AKL-WLG-AKL
AKL-CHC-AKL
AKL-DUD-AKL
AKL-ZQN-AKL
ROT-CHC
CHC-WLG-CHC
CHC-ZQN-CHC
CHC-ZQN-ROT-CHC
Looks like a pretty substanial route structure for the B737 to me.)
You are right about those, but CHC-WLG is mainly an ATR route. Qantas will be restarting 737 service and Pacific Blue have thrown 737-800s at the route, which is a bit of a waste of a big plane on a route that is 189 miles. No question, on routes as short as that the ATR is the best plane. There must be some routes that are so short that they would be too short for a high performance TP like a Q400. AirNZ could already use Q300s if they did not mind losing a few seats compared with ATR. Or if Qantas feel like doing NZ services with more frequencies they could bring some Q300s here as they are displaced from Australian service by their Q400s.
Yesterday we were talking about how far is too far in a Q400. Some airlines do use Q400s on routes of 600 miles Canberra-Brisbane. There must be a spot somewhere that the 100 seater jets start to win over fast TPs. I don't think the manufacturers or the airlines are going to share that data in a forum. Size does matter for the jet. If 50 seater jets and 70 seater jets cost as much as big jets to operate, that shows that Qantas and AirNZ have been right to reject them.
If the 100 seater E-190 is starting to prove itself in North America and Europe - reliability, operating costs and passenger appeal - local operators will have to ask what can this plane do that Q400s and 737-300s cannot.
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Difficult calls for AirNZ on regional focus
No easy answer to what AirNZ will do on regional domestic. It can't make the choice based entirely on its cost structures because there is a dynamic market out there, and it has to be sure how its potential pax will react. Some are happy with cheap and cheerful, others want a different offering.
There is a very interesting article in October Pacific Wings, talking about some of the issues likely to play out in the NZ aviation market.
AirNZ will have to be careful, as the wrong choice will cost it market share, and with some of the big players emerging, it can't afford to drop share.
There is a very interesting article in October Pacific Wings, talking about some of the issues likely to play out in the NZ aviation market.
AirNZ will have to be careful, as the wrong choice will cost it market share, and with some of the big players emerging, it can't afford to drop share.
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Interesting times.
Sounds like 6 of VBs E-Jets are NZ bound before too long. Not sure how 'regional' they'll be flying though. I paxed on one of these things the other day, and from a passenger comfort point of view, I think they beat an ATR or Dash hands down.
As has been stated, it will all come down to the public's willingness to pay a 'jet' premium. Many of use look straight to the bottom line when booking a flight, but I'm not convinced this is the case in the world of the frequent business traveler.
Having said that, I haven't traveled on the newer turboprop options being considered by Air NZ, and numbers-wise I think the new Q400 would be hard to go passed (provided they've ironed out the quality problems of the original design).
Sounds like 6 of VBs E-Jets are NZ bound before too long. Not sure how 'regional' they'll be flying though. I paxed on one of these things the other day, and from a passenger comfort point of view, I think they beat an ATR or Dash hands down.
As has been stated, it will all come down to the public's willingness to pay a 'jet' premium. Many of use look straight to the bottom line when booking a flight, but I'm not convinced this is the case in the world of the frequent business traveler.
Having said that, I haven't traveled on the newer turboprop options being considered by Air NZ, and numbers-wise I think the new Q400 would be hard to go passed (provided they've ironed out the quality problems of the original design).
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There is a very interesting article in October Pacific Wings, talking about some of the issues likely to play out in the NZ aviation market.
AirNZ will have to be careful, as the wrong choice will cost it market share, and with some of the big players emerging, it can't afford to drop share.
exactly
The choice is not just an accounting decision it is also a strategic marketing decision, meaning that Air NZ will choose a type that will best help protect it's large and very lucrative regional market share.
AirNZ will have to be careful, as the wrong choice will cost it market share, and with some of the big players emerging, it can't afford to drop share.
exactlyThe choice is not just an accounting decision it is also a strategic marketing decision, meaning that Air NZ will choose a type that will best help protect it's large and very lucrative regional market share.
Last edited by ramyon; 5th Dec 2007 at 04:57.
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More thoughts about VirginBlue and jets - when VB started in Australia, they said any town with a population of more than 60 000 was a candidate for their service, and that was a long time before RJs were thought about. Then VB started flying from Sydney to Coffs Harbor, which is about half way between Sydney and Brisbane. They provided one daily service at an off peak time, with a nice cheap fare, and they happily said they were doing it, to use the plane outside peak times. The plane a 737-700 was far bigger than the Saabs and Dash 8s on the market at the time. Not only did the jet take people off those services, it took people off regional services to other nearby towns. The operators of regional aircraft cannot really compete against a big plane that happens to be dumped in their market.
If you looked at the market, the regional airlines provided good frequencies, which allowed people from a regional town to go to Sydney for a days business and avoid an overnight stay, but people liked the fares on the Virgin service.
If you looked at the market, the regional airlines provided good frequencies, which allowed people from a regional town to go to Sydney for a days business and avoid an overnight stay, but people liked the fares on the Virgin service.
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alangirvan,
Cheaper fares are all well and good but trying to survive forever by selling super cheap tickets is another thing..... Virgin has done well and Im sure they will continue to do so but remember they were handed nearly half the market overnight with the collapse of Ansett and have yet to see a decent recession.
Costs can only be cut so far and eventually it will be the big spenders who keep the airlines going...... Ive always personally believed that the full service players will survive longer than the (not all) LCC's.
The NZ regional game: As cloud and flybe said..... It will be a factor of who is prepared to pay a 'jet' premium, and those who can will place the shedule ahead of the jet factor anyway. The rest (like me) will go with whoever is $10 cheaper
Cheaper fares are all well and good but trying to survive forever by selling super cheap tickets is another thing..... Virgin has done well and Im sure they will continue to do so but remember they were handed nearly half the market overnight with the collapse of Ansett and have yet to see a decent recession.
Costs can only be cut so far and eventually it will be the big spenders who keep the airlines going...... Ive always personally believed that the full service players will survive longer than the (not all) LCC's.
The NZ regional game: As cloud and flybe said..... It will be a factor of who is prepared to pay a 'jet' premium, and those who can will place the shedule ahead of the jet factor anyway. The rest (like me) will go with whoever is $10 cheaper
Flighties
Of course the other issue is... any more than 50 pieces of self loading freight, and I think you need an extra flight attendant?
What does that do to your business case?
Makes TP economics even more imperative.
I know for a fact that on one route in the past that shall remain nameless, flown by an airline that shall remain nameless, the profit per sector with a full load of pax was, well, lets say less than NZ$100.
The margins are really, really scarily thin.
What does that do to your business case?
Makes TP economics even more imperative.
I know for a fact that on one route in the past that shall remain nameless, flown by an airline that shall remain nameless, the profit per sector with a full load of pax was, well, lets say less than NZ$100.
The margins are really, really scarily thin.
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The other consideration also with jets to the regions, is, having flown a jet on some short New Zealand sectors, is that your limited to 250 KIAS below 10000' anyway. Some of the sectors we're crusing for about 5 minutes before we start descent. Then we hit 10,000' and we slow down to turboprop speeds. Same in the climb, unless out of AKL, WLG or CHC, 250 KIAS climb when we could climb at 270-300 KIAS.
Another side issue, I assume, yeah, assume that these E-jets are Cat C aircraft, that really ups the mins at some of these regional airports. Everyone starts flying jets, and on crappy days when you would have gotten in on a good ole TP, you can't anymore... wonder if the disrupt rate would increase?
Another side issue, I assume, yeah, assume that these E-jets are Cat C aircraft, that really ups the mins at some of these regional airports. Everyone starts flying jets, and on crappy days when you would have gotten in on a good ole TP, you can't anymore... wonder if the disrupt rate would increase?
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If you fly in a jet between Canberra and Sydney, the time in the air is 20 minutes. If you were flying in Ansett First Class, you had to eat your breakfast omelette very quickly.
Smaller jets of all sorts are flying all around Europe and North America, where they have to use airports on days that are almost as crappy as NZ. If any airline wants to fly into Queenstown, they might even use RNP, which is expensive, but does get the plane into the airport on days when other planes are diverting to Dunedin and Invercargill.
Smaller jets of all sorts are flying all around Europe and North America, where they have to use airports on days that are almost as crappy as NZ. If any airline wants to fly into Queenstown, they might even use RNP, which is expensive, but does get the plane into the airport on days when other planes are diverting to Dunedin and Invercargill.
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Time magazine article Aug. 23, 2007
"The rocketing price of jet fuel has prompted the industry to rethink its jets- first strategy on short-haul routes (less than 500 miles, or about 800 km). Seattle-based regional carrier Horizon Air, owned by Alaska Air, was a hard sell on the Q400 until it couldn't get deliveries of the CRJ-700, a 70-seater regional jet, from the Canadian company. So Horizon grudgingly ordered 12 turboprops, and the airline hasn't looked back. "We found out very quickly that the Q400 was a completely different animal," says Pat Zachweija, until recently a top executive at Alaska Air Group. Horizon, with 33, has the most Q400s of any fleet in North America and expects to have 48--70% of its fleet--by 2009. "The economics were there," he says. "And as fuel goes up, we just look smarter and smarter." The Q400 might allow the regional to go up against low-cost, short-haul king Southwest and its fleet of Boeing 737s"
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Quote.......Horizon, with 33, has the most Q400s of any fleet in North America and expects to have 48--70% of its fleet--by 2009. "The economics were there," he says. "And as fuel goes up, we just look smarter and smarter." The Q400 might allow the regional to go up against low-cost, short-haul king Southwest and its fleet of Boeing 737s"
I....REST....MY.....CASE
I....REST....MY.....CASE
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Some airlines still seem to like CRJs.
TORONTO - Bombardier Aerospace (TSX:BBD.B) has won a US$773-million order from SkyWest Inc. of St. George, Utah, to supply 22 more regional jets.
The deal for 18 CRJ700 NextGen jets and four CRJ900 NextGen jets includes 22 options that SkyWest can apply to either aircraft, Montreal-based Bombardier Inc. said Friday.
It's the first order for CRJ NextGen aircraft by SkyWest, which through its SkyWest Airlines and Atlantic Southeast Airlines subsidiaries, already operates the world's largest CRJ fleet, with 363 aircraft.
Its fleet includes 244 CRJ200, 102 CRJ700 and 17 CRJ900 regional jets.
The CRJ700 NextGen aircraft, with 66 seats in a three-class configuration, will be operated under SkyWest's United Express banner, while the four CRJ900 NextGen jets, with 76 seats in a two-class arrangement, will be operated under SkyWest's Delta Connection banner.
"We are very excited to have SkyWest become the 12th customer to select the CRJ NextGen aircraft since the program was launched in May," said Steven Ridolfi, president of Bombardier Regional Aircraft, with operations based in Toronto.
The order "builds on operational efficiencies and aircraft reliability that SkyWest has enjoyed for 15 years as a CRJ U.S. launch customer," said Jerry Atkin, chairman and CEO of SkyWest Inc.
Including this transaction, Bombardier has recorded firm orders for 1,623 CRJ Series aircraft. As of Oct. 31, 1,452 of them had been delivered to operators around the world.
Bombardier is a global manufacturer of transportation products, from regional aircraft and business jets to rail transportation equipment, systems and services, Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31 were US$14.8 billion.
TORONTO - Bombardier Aerospace (TSX:BBD.B) has won a US$773-million order from SkyWest Inc. of St. George, Utah, to supply 22 more regional jets.
The deal for 18 CRJ700 NextGen jets and four CRJ900 NextGen jets includes 22 options that SkyWest can apply to either aircraft, Montreal-based Bombardier Inc. said Friday.
It's the first order for CRJ NextGen aircraft by SkyWest, which through its SkyWest Airlines and Atlantic Southeast Airlines subsidiaries, already operates the world's largest CRJ fleet, with 363 aircraft.
Its fleet includes 244 CRJ200, 102 CRJ700 and 17 CRJ900 regional jets.
The CRJ700 NextGen aircraft, with 66 seats in a three-class configuration, will be operated under SkyWest's United Express banner, while the four CRJ900 NextGen jets, with 76 seats in a two-class arrangement, will be operated under SkyWest's Delta Connection banner.
"We are very excited to have SkyWest become the 12th customer to select the CRJ NextGen aircraft since the program was launched in May," said Steven Ridolfi, president of Bombardier Regional Aircraft, with operations based in Toronto.
The order "builds on operational efficiencies and aircraft reliability that SkyWest has enjoyed for 15 years as a CRJ U.S. launch customer," said Jerry Atkin, chairman and CEO of SkyWest Inc.
Including this transaction, Bombardier has recorded firm orders for 1,623 CRJ Series aircraft. As of Oct. 31, 1,452 of them had been delivered to operators around the world.
Bombardier is a global manufacturer of transportation products, from regional aircraft and business jets to rail transportation equipment, systems and services, Its revenues for the fiscal year ended Jan. 31 were US$14.8 billion.
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"In the past, Horizon Air had an extensive contract flying arrangement with Frontier Airlines, serving smaller markets from Frontier's Denver hub under the name Frontier JetExpress. Both Horizon and Frontier decided to part ways after three years of service. The nine CRJ-700 that have been in use for Frontier JetExpress have been re-introduced into the Horizon route structure starting as of November 30, 2007. Horizon has also announced that CommutAir will sub-lease 16 of their Dash 8 Q-200 aircraft also beginning next year."
This Wikipedia article is a bit more recent than Time in August.
This Wikipedia article is a bit more recent than Time in August.