Qantas CP unofficial comment on pilot shortage.
Once again where is the required comment and rebuttle from the professional association of pilots in Australia? The AFAP, AIPA anyone...a deathly silence.
Every time one of these management types comes out with the "poor us, what can we do" speeches the pilot associations should be releasing media releases to everyone putting the flight/cabin crew side of the story.
Guys we are letting management spin soften up the public and the decision makers.
Every time one of these management types comes out with the "poor us, what can we do" speeches the pilot associations should be releasing media releases to everyone putting the flight/cabin crew side of the story.
Guys we are letting management spin soften up the public and the decision makers.
When will some of you D***heads understand??????????
QFinsider gets it in one:
There is no shortage, THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS WILLING TO WORK AT QANTAS PAY SCALES.
MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????
If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!
QFinsider gets it in one:
"It's all about bucks, the rest is conversation"- Gordon Gecko
MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????
If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!
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How can Qantas Group manage the pilot shortage?
Wouldn't have anything to do with management telling all new recruits in QantasLink and Australian Air Express etc that they will have career progression into Mainline Qantas in a few years would it?
See cryptic QantasLink Advertisment in The Australian on Friday
In November and December the QantasLink Recruitment Team will be holding information sessions to provide aspiring QantasLink pilots details on:
-QantasLink pilot employment
-Qantas recruitment (qualifying period applies)
-Recent changes to the selection process.
Sounds like the Qantas Group Opportunity List that AIPA were pushing for.
Didn't Dixon say "over his dead body"
Time will tell.
Wouldn't have anything to do with management telling all new recruits in QantasLink and Australian Air Express etc that they will have career progression into Mainline Qantas in a few years would it?
See cryptic QantasLink Advertisment in The Australian on Friday
In November and December the QantasLink Recruitment Team will be holding information sessions to provide aspiring QantasLink pilots details on:
-QantasLink pilot employment
-Qantas recruitment (qualifying period applies)
-Recent changes to the selection process.
Sounds like the Qantas Group Opportunity List that AIPA were pushing for.
Didn't Dixon say "over his dead body"
Time will tell.
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MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????
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Sunfish, not just the bucks, why would anyone want to come home and sit in the right hand seat and wait for a queue of 1000 hour Chieftan drivers (no disrespect intended to 1000 hour Chieftan drivers, by the way) to get their commands before you can get a command on an aircraft that you already have a command on?
All for less money and you can pay to get yourself home as well. Bargain, where do I sign up? Not!
As someone famous once said "No bucks, no Buck Rogers!"
Skyscanner, they may or may not have a problem attracting them but they will have a problem keeping them if they aren't carefull! From where I am sitting I fail to see what is so attractive about them anyway. The future is Jet* remember.
All for less money and you can pay to get yourself home as well. Bargain, where do I sign up? Not!
As someone famous once said "No bucks, no Buck Rogers!"
Skyscanner, they may or may not have a problem attracting them but they will have a problem keeping them if they aren't carefull! From where I am sitting I fail to see what is so attractive about them anyway. The future is Jet* remember.
Last edited by bloggs2; 20th Oct 2007 at 10:16.
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"....If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!..."
I don't want to take aircraft's position on this because I genuinely believe pilot remuneration leaves a lot to be desired but statements like these are simplistic at best. The real concern airline management teams have is that they will be forced to engage themselves in a bidding war for pilots. This could present a situation where wages increase at almost all carriers, which would of course bring them all back to square one......they are short of pilots because their payscales aren't competitive on a relative basis, even though salaries HAVE doubled! Great for us but not so great for LCCs that may have a somewhat limited ability to pass on costs without experiencing some loss of demand. It isn't hard to see why they are so worried and hence will try anything in order to reduce their exposure to the problem. If I was one of them I wouldn't be sleeping too soundly.
The Comet.
I don't want to take aircraft's position on this because I genuinely believe pilot remuneration leaves a lot to be desired but statements like these are simplistic at best. The real concern airline management teams have is that they will be forced to engage themselves in a bidding war for pilots. This could present a situation where wages increase at almost all carriers, which would of course bring them all back to square one......they are short of pilots because their payscales aren't competitive on a relative basis, even though salaries HAVE doubled! Great for us but not so great for LCCs that may have a somewhat limited ability to pass on costs without experiencing some loss of demand. It isn't hard to see why they are so worried and hence will try anything in order to reduce their exposure to the problem. If I was one of them I wouldn't be sleeping too soundly.
The Comet.
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Just bringing up the point which neville_nobody raised...
Expats...
I've been an Expat for a while now, flying twin turbo-props. My base salary is the same as a REX FO (I'm not complaining - I'm greatful to have a job), HOWEVER - Our benefits include,
- All housing/accomodation is supplied (electricity, gas, water)
- You get a tax-free per-diem allowance
- Company cars anywhere you need to go
- Attractive Tour Working, with the company paying for your ticket back home every time you go on break.
So, in terms of money, I'm already.... Well I don't know how much per year you could estimate on the abovementioned things. But do you think I'd give up my job now to go work for REX..... Certainly not. Crikey, I wouldn't want to pay for a power bill out of my 40k for the year. I have to eat and so do the kids!
Expats...
I've been an Expat for a while now, flying twin turbo-props. My base salary is the same as a REX FO (I'm not complaining - I'm greatful to have a job), HOWEVER - Our benefits include,
- All housing/accomodation is supplied (electricity, gas, water)
- You get a tax-free per-diem allowance
- Company cars anywhere you need to go
- Attractive Tour Working, with the company paying for your ticket back home every time you go on break.
So, in terms of money, I'm already.... Well I don't know how much per year you could estimate on the abovementioned things. But do you think I'd give up my job now to go work for REX..... Certainly not. Crikey, I wouldn't want to pay for a power bill out of my 40k for the year. I have to eat and so do the kids!
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comet
Trouble is, pilots are falling behind bus drivers, council workers and shop assistants.
It's not a problem of salaries between pilots per se.
they are short of pilots because their payscales aren't competitive on a relative basis, even though salaries HAVE doubled!
It's not a problem of salaries between pilots per se.
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Bugger, must have missed it when my pay DOUBLED!? Bloody wife and kids must be nicking it before I get to see it!
Sure did notice when the amount of time spent in an aircraft nearly doubled though! So did the wife and kids.
Sure did notice when the amount of time spent in an aircraft nearly doubled though! So did the wife and kids.
****-kicking-airline management have been kicking young pilot's arses for years.
Now that the boot is on the other foot, can you believe these same airline management pricks are asking for Government assistance?
When I joined CX twenty-something years ago, I had an interview with the Director of Flight Operations. He told me that he just received a call from the Chief of Air Staff of the RAAF. The CAS had complained to the DFO about poaching of "his" pilots. I asked the DFO what reply he gave.
The DFO said, "I said to him that if you paid them what they are worth, then they wouldn't leave!" He then hung up.
...nothing has changed...
Now that the boot is on the other foot, can you believe these same airline management pricks are asking for Government assistance?
When I joined CX twenty-something years ago, I had an interview with the Director of Flight Operations. He told me that he just received a call from the Chief of Air Staff of the RAAF. The CAS had complained to the DFO about poaching of "his" pilots. I asked the DFO what reply he gave.
The DFO said, "I said to him that if you paid them what they are worth, then they wouldn't leave!" He then hung up.
...nothing has changed...
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
When will some of you D***heads understand??????????
What do you care, anyway??
Originally Posted by Sunfish
There is no shortage, THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS WILLING TO WORK AT QANTAS PAY SCALES.
MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????
If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!
MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????
If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!
But of course your example is flawed: rest assured, there is no "shortage" of pilots willing to work at Quantas at existing pay scales. Despite your own frequently-trotted out hang-ups and personal neuroses about the national flag-carrier, Quantas is still typically seen as the pinnacle in this country for motivated and suitably-educated pilots.
Manning has not been quoted as saying Qwantas will suffer due to this "shortage". He refers to the industry and regionals in particular.
Originally Posted by Sunfish
There is no shortage, THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS WILLING TO WORK AT QANTAS PAY SCALES.
Are you seriously suggesting pilots have decided to go elsewhere rather than work for Qwannus? If so, then where?
Signal-to-noise ratio, Sunfish.........
On the topic of quotes:
a crisis “bigger than the airline strike of 1989..."
the industry needed to put pressure on airlines and governments to find a solution.
Doodoo, Sorry but I'm speaking from direct experience dealing with manufacturers and other employers as part of a State Government.
It's not only the airline industry that whines about shortages - all industries do, but they conveniently always leave out the second phrase of their whine to whit:
"I can't find enough skilled people to work for me, at the wages I want to pay them!"
I'm afraid you have forgotten about the large numbers of pilots who have left the industry completely. There is no need to import foreign labor. it's the same in almost all industries I can think of - the plumber/electrician/toolmaker/nurse/policeman/welder/LAME who are now running their own shop or lawn mowing business after getting fed up with wages and conditions - thats where the common wisdom about changing careers four or five times comes from.
For example, my first degree is in engineering, but do I want to go back to designing tooling for annealing cartridge cases as I once did? Nope. The hours and pay were crap, but I still could, if push came to shove, and someone offered me $250K per annum.
It's not only the airline industry that whines about shortages - all industries do, but they conveniently always leave out the second phrase of their whine to whit:
"I can't find enough skilled people to work for me, at the wages I want to pay them!"
I'm afraid you have forgotten about the large numbers of pilots who have left the industry completely. There is no need to import foreign labor. it's the same in almost all industries I can think of - the plumber/electrician/toolmaker/nurse/policeman/welder/LAME who are now running their own shop or lawn mowing business after getting fed up with wages and conditions - thats where the common wisdom about changing careers four or five times comes from.
For example, my first degree is in engineering, but do I want to go back to designing tooling for annealing cartridge cases as I once did? Nope. The hours and pay were crap, but I still could, if push came to shove, and someone offered me $250K per annum.
blow.n.gasket - nothing really cryptic about the add in Fridays Australian. Since about Feb this year there has been a procedure for Link pilots applying to Qantas mainline. After 2 years of link services you get one exemption on the requirements if you provide your FT9 scores (or have them provided by Qlink). Rather Lame really.
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ScottyDoo,
Guys are coming to QF but leaving on unprecedented numbers. Direct from the DCP to me: QF management is concerned. The biggest worry is the late-20's/early-30's F/O demographic. The reasons are various for the resignations. Not just money, but promotion and other T&C's. 10 years to command in QF vs 5 in EK, for example. Equitable rostering in a company such as CX as opposed to non-equitable rosters (due to seniority) in QF. Etc etc. One departee said to me: "I can achieve in 10 years in EK what would take 20 years in QF". Sure, different lifestyle, but unlike a decade ago guys are actually doing something about it because the opportunities are tangible and rewarding. Blimey, we just lost a -400 F/O to the desert - he would have been a year or so off a QF command! What does that tell you? His reasons include aversion to being stuck at the bottom of a 767 Capt seniority list, flogging up and down the east coast, when in 3 years he could be commanding 777's around the world.
Now that reality, combined with a drying up of supply, is getting the attention of Mr Mannering et al.
Believe it.
Guys are coming to QF but leaving on unprecedented numbers. Direct from the DCP to me: QF management is concerned. The biggest worry is the late-20's/early-30's F/O demographic. The reasons are various for the resignations. Not just money, but promotion and other T&C's. 10 years to command in QF vs 5 in EK, for example. Equitable rostering in a company such as CX as opposed to non-equitable rosters (due to seniority) in QF. Etc etc. One departee said to me: "I can achieve in 10 years in EK what would take 20 years in QF". Sure, different lifestyle, but unlike a decade ago guys are actually doing something about it because the opportunities are tangible and rewarding. Blimey, we just lost a -400 F/O to the desert - he would have been a year or so off a QF command! What does that tell you? His reasons include aversion to being stuck at the bottom of a 767 Capt seniority list, flogging up and down the east coast, when in 3 years he could be commanding 777's around the world.
Now that reality, combined with a drying up of supply, is getting the attention of Mr Mannering et al.
Believe it.
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I don't know if it is a carrot or not, I do know unless some form of career progression is given to QLink within the very near future, they will be in a similar position to Rex.
By delaying the process all it is doing is forcing more and more people to apply to Virgin. In a lot of cases for the people that have been there for more than lets say 10 years the most difficult decision is, "will I apply or not, I have been in my comfort zone for 10 years".
Once that decision is made, the momentum has started and it will then take a lot more than a retention bonus and dropping one of the Mainline requirements to prevent people from leaving.
Basically the ball is in management's hands, the clock is ticking and the activation process has started.
Bring it on soon, or turn out the lights.
By delaying the process all it is doing is forcing more and more people to apply to Virgin. In a lot of cases for the people that have been there for more than lets say 10 years the most difficult decision is, "will I apply or not, I have been in my comfort zone for 10 years".
Once that decision is made, the momentum has started and it will then take a lot more than a retention bonus and dropping one of the Mainline requirements to prevent people from leaving.
Basically the ball is in management's hands, the clock is ticking and the activation process has started.
Bring it on soon, or turn out the lights.
If QF and VB are finding it so easy to find staff then why are their cancellation rates the highest in the domestic market? They both have been steadily increasing towards 2.0% since the start of the year! Rex and QFlink are at the bottom of the list (to end August) but that will probably change as the next few months are released.
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Gerry Harvey's Solution
Billionaire plea for cheap labour
October 21, 2007 12:00am
Article from:
BILLIONAIRE retailer Gerry Harvey says Australia needs a two-tier wage system to allow employers to pay foreign guest workers less than locals.
The Harvey Norman boss said Australia's prosperity was creating a labour shortage and endangering the nation's competitiveness.
He said a growing number of Australian manufacturers were moving overseas, where cheap labour was plentiful.
He called on the Federal Government to allow foreign workers on fixed visas to form a second tier to the labour market.
"Australia doesn't have cheap labour. Many overseas workers would be prepared to move here for a much better life and half the money Australians earn," he said.
"When you get unemployment down to four per cent, to three per cent, to two per cent, business can't get the labour.
"I've got horse studs and it's difficult to get staff.
"Workers would rather work in the mines where they get paid twice as much.
"Fruit- picking companies are relying on backpackers."
Mr Harvey said both major parties needed to open the gates to migrants.
"The US can draw on a lot of cheap labour from Mexico and South America," he said.
"People from those countries move to the US looking for a better life.
"European countries can draw on cheap labour from eastern Europe.
"The danger of being too prosperous is that it can come back to bite you - you can become too lazy and other nations work harder and overtake you."
"What I'm saying is not politically correct.
"You won't get politicians saying what I'm saying, but privately they know this sort of thing is a reality in the future."
October 21, 2007 12:00am
Article from:
BILLIONAIRE retailer Gerry Harvey says Australia needs a two-tier wage system to allow employers to pay foreign guest workers less than locals.
The Harvey Norman boss said Australia's prosperity was creating a labour shortage and endangering the nation's competitiveness.
He said a growing number of Australian manufacturers were moving overseas, where cheap labour was plentiful.
He called on the Federal Government to allow foreign workers on fixed visas to form a second tier to the labour market.
"Australia doesn't have cheap labour. Many overseas workers would be prepared to move here for a much better life and half the money Australians earn," he said.
"When you get unemployment down to four per cent, to three per cent, to two per cent, business can't get the labour.
"I've got horse studs and it's difficult to get staff.
"Workers would rather work in the mines where they get paid twice as much.
"Fruit- picking companies are relying on backpackers."
Mr Harvey said both major parties needed to open the gates to migrants.
"The US can draw on a lot of cheap labour from Mexico and South America," he said.
"People from those countries move to the US looking for a better life.
"European countries can draw on cheap labour from eastern Europe.
"The danger of being too prosperous is that it can come back to bite you - you can become too lazy and other nations work harder and overtake you."
"What I'm saying is not politically correct.
"You won't get politicians saying what I'm saying, but privately they know this sort of thing is a reality in the future."
source