Merged: REX to employ Cadets
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So it really it really comes down to being at the right place at the right time in your aviation career whether you get it easy or have to do the hard years in GA!
I can understand how P
some pilots are who got into this industry 10-15 years ago the hard way and now watch low time pilots getting things easy. Although I doubt the current conditions will entice many to spend thousands of dollars to become pilots considering pilots are still getting paid well below what most professional occupations are demanding these days! 
I can understand how P
some pilots are who got into this industry 10-15 years ago the hard way and now watch low time pilots getting things easy. Although I doubt the current conditions will entice many to spend thousands of dollars to become pilots considering pilots are still getting paid well below what most professional occupations are demanding these days!
TINTIN25
No I’m not pissed at them. I actually feel sorry for most of them. Given my time over again I wouldn’t change a thing. All the experiences I had, all the places I lived and all the places I flew to along the way have left me with priceless memories. The aviation industry in my book isn’t all about a shiny jet with a wiz bang glass cockpit. It is about how you got there that counts. I feel those that skipped this have missed out on something great.
No I’m not pissed at them. I actually feel sorry for most of them. Given my time over again I wouldn’t change a thing. All the experiences I had, all the places I lived and all the places I flew to along the way have left me with priceless memories. The aviation industry in my book isn’t all about a shiny jet with a wiz bang glass cockpit. It is about how you got there that counts. I feel those that skipped this have missed out on something great.
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"quote" It's got nothing to do with being envious of others 'getting it easy'
Well some may not be envious but there could be some friction between the Captains and a 200 hour First Officers fresh out of training leading to unsafe conditions because the more experienced pilots taking the cow boy approach doing it his/her own way without working working with the new arrangements.
In Europe they have F/O with only a few hundred hours working just fine so providing there is adequate training it will be safe. If CASA thinks it is going to be unsafe they won't be allowing it to happen in the Australian aviation industry. Although some people may have things to say about that last statement.
Well some may not be envious but there could be some friction between the Captains and a 200 hour First Officers fresh out of training leading to unsafe conditions because the more experienced pilots taking the cow boy approach doing it his/her own way without working working with the new arrangements.
In Europe they have F/O with only a few hundred hours working just fine so providing there is adequate training it will be safe. If CASA thinks it is going to be unsafe they won't be allowing it to happen in the Australian aviation industry. Although some people may have things to say about that last statement.
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I Agree with 404 Titan. Flying is about the many experiences along the way & you can be just as happy flying scenics in a nice remote area. Flying the jets are not everything to life which I think most young people in their 20s don't realise.
Although in the world today it is almost impossible to live on a GA wage so unless you are loaded with money there really isn't any incentive to stick it out in GA. Not to mention being treated like dirt by some operators.
Although in the world today it is almost impossible to live on a GA wage so unless you are loaded with money there really isn't any incentive to stick it out in GA. Not to mention being treated like dirt by some operators.
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This argument keeps coming up again and again. We are not in Europe. The 200hr pilots over here do not have the luxury or protection from full ATC radar coverage and precision approaches everywhere. We are also talking about regional sized operators flying not so sophisticated regional aeroplanes.
Situational awareness, which comes from experience, is the main factor in my opinion for a safe flying environment in Aus. An overloaded 200hr pilot might easily miss 4 aircraft calling inbound and outbound from a remote aerodrome. Take the traffic density in remote WA at peak times for example. Learning to fly a turboprop would be hard enough at 200hrs, but then having to separate yourself from multiple traffic at 250-300kts (500-600kts closing) is too much to ask. An accident waiting to happen. A 20 – 50 seat turboprop or even a jet full of passengers (possibly your family) is not the place to be learning and making mistakes. It’s unfair for the 200hr pilot and is extremely unfair on the Captain, not to mention the paying punters.
If you want to fly in Australia, start in a C206 or C210 at 120 – 150kts. Specific training and SOPs can only teach you so much. PIC time is starting to be underrated. ICUS is a complete waste of time for someone with no or little command experience. Nothing sobers you up more than needing to make a hard decision when your ass is on the line. There is a big difference.
Skippers will be the first to suffer from not trying to seriously retain its experienced pilots. Rex will undoubtedly follow. What we are seeing is not a cycle of supply and demand, but a world wide growth for air travel that is unprecedented and the demand is only going to get stronger. A REX cadetship? Who are these people?
Situational awareness, which comes from experience, is the main factor in my opinion for a safe flying environment in Aus. An overloaded 200hr pilot might easily miss 4 aircraft calling inbound and outbound from a remote aerodrome. Take the traffic density in remote WA at peak times for example. Learning to fly a turboprop would be hard enough at 200hrs, but then having to separate yourself from multiple traffic at 250-300kts (500-600kts closing) is too much to ask. An accident waiting to happen. A 20 – 50 seat turboprop or even a jet full of passengers (possibly your family) is not the place to be learning and making mistakes. It’s unfair for the 200hr pilot and is extremely unfair on the Captain, not to mention the paying punters.
If you want to fly in Australia, start in a C206 or C210 at 120 – 150kts. Specific training and SOPs can only teach you so much. PIC time is starting to be underrated. ICUS is a complete waste of time for someone with no or little command experience. Nothing sobers you up more than needing to make a hard decision when your ass is on the line. There is a big difference.
Skippers will be the first to suffer from not trying to seriously retain its experienced pilots. Rex will undoubtedly follow. What we are seeing is not a cycle of supply and demand, but a world wide growth for air travel that is unprecedented and the demand is only going to get stronger. A REX cadetship? Who are these people?
Erin Brockovich
Just like what we saw in the 60’s with the advent of the jet age. Just as supply and demand came the full circle then it will come the full circle again within the next few years and pilots will be fighting over the remaining crumbs. There is absolutely no deference between then and now, just the scale of it. If you think there is, you are only kidding yourself.
What we are seeing is not a cycle of supply and demand, but a world wide growth for air travel that is unprecedented and the demand is only going to get stronger.
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There is just one big difference. Pilots now aren’t getting payed anywhere near as much as in the 60s. Not as many dreamy eyed school leavers fighting over each other. Especially not to fork out half of the $100k required nowdays for a CPL to be stuck as a REX F/O on 40k forever.
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Well even if REX along with other operators start paying experienced pilots what they are worth to retain them it is only a short term fix since not many experienced pilots are coming up through GA.
I personally think most young people today can't be bothered putting up with the poor conditions that aviation offers and don't see flying as an attractive career path. With the constant recency requirements, medicals, cost of gaining the qualification there are better opportunities for people than a $40k something a year job at REX. Most people can earn similar money or more outside aviation without having the constant flight checks and financial debt to keep a job.
ohh but the old timers say you "fly because you love flying" Well that statement does not cut it with generation Y. We need the money along with the shinny new jet job without doing the hard yards. I know it sounds a bit way out there to say something like that but that is the way this generation thinks! They want the the airline job, high pay, big house filled with material things all before they turn 25.
It will be rather interesting to watch how aviation changes in Australia in the years to come!
I personally think most young people today can't be bothered putting up with the poor conditions that aviation offers and don't see flying as an attractive career path. With the constant recency requirements, medicals, cost of gaining the qualification there are better opportunities for people than a $40k something a year job at REX. Most people can earn similar money or more outside aviation without having the constant flight checks and financial debt to keep a job.
ohh but the old timers say you "fly because you love flying" Well that statement does not cut it with generation Y. We need the money along with the shinny new jet job without doing the hard yards. I know it sounds a bit way out there to say something like that but that is the way this generation thinks! They want the the airline job, high pay, big house filled with material things all before they turn 25.
It will be rather interesting to watch how aviation changes in Australia in the years to come!
Erin Brockovich
That’s because in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s the unions were at their peak. From the late 80’s to today the unions have been in a steady decline because of changes to government industrial relations legislation and the current generation of workers increasingly unable to see the benefits of unionism.
Pilots now aren’t getting payed anywhere near as much as in the 60s.
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[If you want to fly in Australia, start in a C206 or C210 at 120 – 150kts. Specific training and SOPs can only teach you so much. PIC time is starting to be underrated. ICUS is a complete waste of time for someone with no or little command experience. Nothing sobers you up more than needing to make a hard decision when your ass is on the line. There is a big difference.]
Excellent commentary and wise words Erin.
To anyone thinking about 'expressing interest' in LK's flying school, don't do it!
Command time will give you more choices in the long run and the chances are, you'll probably earn better coin in GA at the moment.
Last edited by Naverick; 23rd Sep 2007 at 22:03.
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quote "you'll probably earn better coin in GA at the moment"
I like to see that happening flying C206! Maybe that is a dream you had
It is very well flying in command of single engine planes to gain confidence but it does nothing for your long term career prospects. Airlines want multi-time. For any pilot that wants to make make it into the airlines they really need to be looking at gaining multi-time. Singles are alright to pass the CPL flight test but that is where it should end. If the pilot wants to fly multi-engine they are better off working on the aircraft they plan on flying than wasting their time flying the lower performance smaller planes.
I like to see that happening flying C206! Maybe that is a dream you had
It is very well flying in command of single engine planes to gain confidence but it does nothing for your long term career prospects. Airlines want multi-time. For any pilot that wants to make make it into the airlines they really need to be looking at gaining multi-time. Singles are alright to pass the CPL flight test but that is where it should end. If the pilot wants to fly multi-engine they are better off working on the aircraft they plan on flying than wasting their time flying the lower performance smaller planes.
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There are plenty of piston twin operators that have realised they need to bump up their wages to stem the flow to the regionals. Many are paying a fair bit more to fly a Bongo or Titan than what Rex pays their F/O’s to fly a SAAB. So yes, you can get better coin in GA, it ain’t a dream….
Seasonally Adjusted
Well that statement does not cut it with generation Y. We need the money along with the shinny new jet job without doing the hard yards. I know it sounds a bit way out there to say something like that but that is the way this generation thinks!
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Well that statement does not cut it with generation Y. We need the money along with the shinny new jet job without doing the hard yards. I know it sounds a bit way out there to say something like that but that is the way this generation thinks!
Well this generation are in for some unwelcome surprises in the aviation industry !
There are plenty of higher paying professions than the airline industry !
Well this generation are in for some unwelcome surprises in the aviation industry !
There are plenty of higher paying professions than the airline industry !
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500hrs twin PIC
At my old company, one requirement was a minimum of 500hrs PIC on twin engine aircraft to be able to move into the left hand seat of the likes of metro's etc. Does REX's have min experience requirements to command an aircraft over 5700kg MTOW? If they do, how will cadets get around it?
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Well even if REX along with other operators start paying experienced pilots what they are worth to retain them it is only a short term fix since not many experienced pilots are coming up through GA.
Once that's gone - it's gone for good.
full ATC radar coverage and precision approaches everywhere.
There may be one difference between the European ops (where having Low Time FOs doesn't seem to be an issue) and the Australian scene- whilst in Europe, even working for a small, marginally profitable operation, there was no suggestion of doing anything outside the rules- the same could not be said of when i worked for a Mid-sized Regional Airline in Aus. Hopefully things have changed, but I do remember (and am not proud of) having to draw on experience to deal with "outside the box" situations my then employer put me in.
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quote "having to draw on experience to deal with "outside the box" situations my then employer put me in"
This is a key point. If you take a young cadet who is fresh out of high school without life experience they are going to crumble under pressure when the situation arises to think "outside the box"
Maybe Rex needs to consider offering the cadet program to mature pilots who already hold a commercial licences but don't have an MECIR. They already have some flying experience compared to starting with newbies who will probably dump REX the moment they can find a gig in a bigger airline.
It would be a much quicker process!
By the time they get fresh cadets who have never flown a plane in their lives up to speed, it is going to be well into 2009!
Will REX still be here in 2009 if they have to wait that long for pilots?
This is a key point. If you take a young cadet who is fresh out of high school without life experience they are going to crumble under pressure when the situation arises to think "outside the box"
Maybe Rex needs to consider offering the cadet program to mature pilots who already hold a commercial licences but don't have an MECIR. They already have some flying experience compared to starting with newbies who will probably dump REX the moment they can find a gig in a bigger airline.
It would be a much quicker process!
By the time they get fresh cadets who have never flown a plane in their lives up to speed, it is going to be well into 2009!
Will REX still be here in 2009 if they have to wait that long for pilots?
Last edited by TINTIN25; 24th Sep 2007 at 09:16.
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Don't forget that the REX group is more than just REX, whats the likelihood that any potential cadets would do something like 12 months in the RH seat of Pelair aircraft followed by 12 months in the RH seat of a SAAB, followed by 12 months at Airlink on Twin Comanches/310/Pa-31 ?