Merged: REX to employ Cadets
Not really TINTIN25,
They will simply move forward with their applications to the bigger players.
Once the major airlines sort out their training spaces, my guess is around the end of this year-beginning of next, the heamorage of Captains will increase dramatically!
So the problem of captains sitting next to a 200 hour wonder will be more or less academic.
OK then, crank up the seniority list. Wait a minute? Under the current Regs we can't promote these guys! What do we do now? Apply for an exemption. Is that possible? It's either that or we shut the doors!
You tell me what would be more disturbing?
They will simply move forward with their applications to the bigger players.
Once the major airlines sort out their training spaces, my guess is around the end of this year-beginning of next, the heamorage of Captains will increase dramatically!
So the problem of captains sitting next to a 200 hour wonder will be more or less academic.
OK then, crank up the seniority list. Wait a minute? Under the current Regs we can't promote these guys! What do we do now? Apply for an exemption. Is that possible? It's either that or we shut the doors!
You tell me what would be more disturbing?
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Too right!
Dead right Track Direct, this "bad habits of single ops pilots" gets bandied about on a regular basis, usually as a justification of low time pilots getting into the RHS early on, in order to avoid these habits.
I would like to hear just exactly what bad habits are being referred to? When I moved up from single pilot ATOs on Islander and Aztecs, there was no mention whatever by the Training Captains on any bad habits I had, well, flying ones anyway!
In fact, one of the captains said that the general consensus was, we were easier to train as we were current in the real world of IFR as opposed to the training enviroment.
Nosey
I would like to hear just exactly what bad habits are being referred to? When I moved up from single pilot ATOs on Islander and Aztecs, there was no mention whatever by the Training Captains on any bad habits I had, well, flying ones anyway! In fact, one of the captains said that the general consensus was, we were easier to train as we were current in the real world of IFR as opposed to the training enviroment. Nosey
Last edited by NoseGear; 26th Sep 2007 at 11:03.
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So the problem of captains sitting next to a 200 hour wonder will be more or less academic.
Or do you mean an academic will sit in the left hand seat to remove said problem?
They will simply move forward with their applications to the bigger players.
iceblock,
Chill-out son!
I didn't mean to offend, and in hindsight the remark about the 200 hour wonder was probably a tad sweeping.
The arguement over whether a Cadet taught "the right way" and a more experienced candidate with the associated practicle and life experience would be better suited to this kind of operation, has been going on since Adam was a boy!
Obviously, I would prefer the latter sitting next to me on a dark and stormy night, but that is just my opinion.
The real thrust of my post, and you should read it again carefully, is that to my knowledge approx 80% of existing REX captains have active applications with larger carriers. The reason that they have not gone already is because Virgin, Jetstar, Qantas etc... simply do not have the training capacity. I do not know if you are in a position to apply to these operators. If you were then you would understand this fact!
The expansion of the major carriers has only just begun. If REX do not come to the existing pilot group with significantly enhansed pay and conditions, when the training capacity at these larger carriers becomes available, they will grab the majority of "experienced" drivers out there, including those from REX.
Chill-out son!
I didn't mean to offend, and in hindsight the remark about the 200 hour wonder was probably a tad sweeping.
The arguement over whether a Cadet taught "the right way" and a more experienced candidate with the associated practicle and life experience would be better suited to this kind of operation, has been going on since Adam was a boy!
Obviously, I would prefer the latter sitting next to me on a dark and stormy night, but that is just my opinion.
The real thrust of my post, and you should read it again carefully, is that to my knowledge approx 80% of existing REX captains have active applications with larger carriers. The reason that they have not gone already is because Virgin, Jetstar, Qantas etc... simply do not have the training capacity. I do not know if you are in a position to apply to these operators. If you were then you would understand this fact!
The expansion of the major carriers has only just begun. If REX do not come to the existing pilot group with significantly enhansed pay and conditions, when the training capacity at these larger carriers becomes available, they will grab the majority of "experienced" drivers out there, including those from REX.
Last edited by KRUSTY 34; 26th Sep 2007 at 19:09.
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To pay pilots more means a considerable blowout to an existing budget, meaning someone gets a rap on the knuckles and loses bonus money
My question re the cadet scheme is about the seniority system. AT the moment, guys and gals are getting commands on the Saab after 12 months. IF the seniority is based on Date of joining, like it is with other cadet schemes, then some of these cadets will be eligible for a command as SOON as they finish their CPL/ATPL/MCPL or whatever.
I know, i know... you cannot be in charge of an a/c above 5700kg mtow without an ATPL... ergo they need 1500hrs TT.. BUT, if all other captains leave, and there is NO-ONE with an ATPL left, then what happens ? and seriously, to get the 1500 hrs TT, a cadet would NEED to do 2 years of RHS flying.
added to that the 18 months it will take to get these chaps thru to CPL, and the 4 years it will take to get a crowbar to force some $$$$ out of singapore to set the scheme up, and the pilot shortage will be over!!! (apparently. I heard someone mention that the CP stated that "in three years his desk will be overflowing with cv's again")
too little, too late! I do NOT want to see Rex fall over, but something NEEDS to be done NOW to stop the attrition.
Minimum time (2-300 hr) First Officers may be new to the Australian scene but have been the norm in Europe for many years. I have flown with many on the Saab when they are fresh out of line training. Yes the first 100 hours or so are hard work as handling skills can be lacking, but they listen and learn and after the initial period make very good FOs. No worse and in some ways better than someone with 1000hrs instucting, since they do not try and land it like a 172 and know they know not much. Of course it depends on the quality of training and of the Pilot in the first place. In the UK I watched a crew with a combined age of 42 and time of about 2000 hrs between them go to take a Saab to the Shetlands (1100 metres) in a low vis gale. Perfectly capable and just as good by then as other Crews. If Aussie Pilots do not need to spend years in the bush any more then good on them. Snag is time to promotion is so long a company can run out of Captains in the meantime.
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No matter how tempting it may seem as a cadet I wouldn't want to be in command of a large passenger jet after just 1 year 
That is asking for trouble especially on a dark & stormy night!
I think REX will end up scrapping seniority and will hand pick the captains to fill the need.
But wait I thought there was a shortage of experienced pilots
Maybe REX is counting on their existing First Officers wanting to stay on as Captains? I doubt they will stay considering the better opportunitys for coin elsewhere.
The only way I can see REX surving this would be to poach exisiting low-time pilots from GA and train them up in a shorter period of time than a fresh cadet who has never flown a plane or offering more coin by enticing oversees pilots to come to Australia!
That is asking for trouble especially on a dark & stormy night! I think REX will end up scrapping seniority and will hand pick the captains to fill the need.
But wait I thought there was a shortage of experienced pilots
Maybe REX is counting on their existing First Officers wanting to stay on as Captains? I doubt they will stay considering the better opportunitys for coin elsewhere.The only way I can see REX surving this would be to poach exisiting low-time pilots from GA and train them up in a shorter period of time than a fresh cadet who has never flown a plane or offering more coin by enticing oversees pilots to come to Australia!
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The day a cadet with only 1 year of experience gets command of a jet, will be the day I move into my underground bunker.
REX has a very obvious but tenaciously overlooked solution to survive. The only solution. Pay to keep your experienced pilots, and pay to attract more. Simple. If you can’t or won’t work out a way to pass on the associated investment needed then get the f#ck out of the flying business.
REX has a very obvious but tenaciously overlooked solution to survive. The only solution. Pay to keep your experienced pilots, and pay to attract more. Simple. If you can’t or won’t work out a way to pass on the associated investment needed then get the f#ck out of the flying business.
The problem I can see in Australia is GA ie. what will happen to it?
Unlike Europe - to which we are often compared (see above) - Australia needs a ready supply of pilots who can fly single pilot IFR in small aircraft to remote communities.
If the MPL, Rex Cadet Schemes, QANTAS pilot training school etc. get the nod, GA in this country is dead in the water and so are the communities who depend upon it. THAT is a far greater problem for any future government than a looming pilot shortage for the airlines.
Unlike Europe - to which we are often compared (see above) - Australia needs a ready supply of pilots who can fly single pilot IFR in small aircraft to remote communities.
If the MPL, Rex Cadet Schemes, QANTAS pilot training school etc. get the nod, GA in this country is dead in the water and so are the communities who depend upon it. THAT is a far greater problem for any future government than a looming pilot shortage for the airlines.
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"quote" The day a cadet with only 1 year of experience gets command of a jet, will be the day I move into my underground bunker.
Well I would start building that bunker! With the demand for pilots to increase well into the next few decades in 20 years time it might be very common occurance! I predict Australia will soon see a major jet crash contributed by a low time Captain with a low time First Officer.
Well I would start building that bunker! With the demand for pilots to increase well into the next few decades in 20 years time it might be very common occurance! I predict Australia will soon see a major jet crash contributed by a low time Captain with a low time First Officer.
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GA will end up either non existant with many operators closing down or the travelling public will have to pay top dollar to give pilots more coin to come back to GA.
The bush and the passengers suffer in the long run. It is all about supply and demand. Look at those plumbers earning $1500 a day! We don't like paying them that much but People will be willing to pay if they don't have any options left especially in the middle of the wet season in northern Australia!
I feel very sorry for those people in the bush who are going to suffer in the years to come
The bush and the passengers suffer in the long run. It is all about supply and demand. Look at those plumbers earning $1500 a day! We don't like paying them that much but People will be willing to pay if they don't have any options left especially in the middle of the wet season in northern Australia!
I feel very sorry for those people in the bush who are going to suffer in the years to come
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Oh ok i get it. Just replace experienced captains with inexperienced captains and the problem will be solvd hey TINTIN25.
With Oz's benign weather dark and stormy nights are pretty rare so that won't be a problem KRUSTY 34. For any airline captain a so called dark and stormy night shouldn't be a problem either way.
I have flown with both experienced and non-experienced pilots and I tell you what. An experienced GA dude can be an absolute pain in the ass and a cadet can be great to fly with. It comes down to the individual. In fact I only hope the airlines can filter out the problem attitudes which arise from experience which I have more than been exposed to.
Experience helps to build an individual, a pilot. However piss farting around in your Shrike, metro ,Titan etc does not help you fly a swept wing airliner with 150 plus souls on board. Believe me they are worlds apart.
With Oz's benign weather dark and stormy nights are pretty rare so that won't be a problem KRUSTY 34. For any airline captain a so called dark and stormy night shouldn't be a problem either way.
I have flown with both experienced and non-experienced pilots and I tell you what. An experienced GA dude can be an absolute pain in the ass and a cadet can be great to fly with. It comes down to the individual. In fact I only hope the airlines can filter out the problem attitudes which arise from experience which I have more than been exposed to.
Experience helps to build an individual, a pilot. However piss farting around in your Shrike, metro ,Titan etc does not help you fly a swept wing airliner with 150 plus souls on board. Believe me they are worlds apart.
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The problem is that GA has been stuffed, stonewalled and taxed to the max in the last 10 years. No support whatsover! Hey but dont worry the budget is in surplus! haha yeah right, we can all absorb the budget surplus crap, but what has happened in GA has been repeated in every profession and industry in the last 10 years! These days the government doesnt govern it just cuts and moves the deck chairs! Now they are blaming the states! haha!
Captaintunedog, I'd rather fly with a pilot that has pissfarted around in a twin than someone who has flown a swept wing job with 150 SOB, with a captain! Swept wing is nothing, the point is single pilot IFR is heaps loads harder than any jet operation, particulary in bad weather, and it develops command skills, just my 2 IFR cents worth!
Captaintunedog, I'd rather fly with a pilot that has pissfarted around in a twin than someone who has flown a swept wing job with 150 SOB, with a captain! Swept wing is nothing, the point is single pilot IFR is heaps loads harder than any jet operation, particulary in bad weather, and it develops command skills, just my 2 IFR cents worth!
Another Chestnut
Truth is U.K/Europe does not have a G.A. They manage through comprehensive teaching of cadets who are sponsored by the majors( BMi,B.A,Airtours etc). Every cadet I worked with proved an asset. Very sharp on the books and equally capable with stick and rudder.
Having done the G.A path in P.N.G , I would love to jump on the bandwagon and say these cadets are a burden , however I found the opposite to be true. They do not propose to have any authority when discussing matters of single pilot R.P.T but then they don't need to.
The big catch is ensuring the training they receive is of the highest calibre, that done then watch them kick goals.
Having done the G.A path in P.N.G , I would love to jump on the bandwagon and say these cadets are a burden , however I found the opposite to be true. They do not propose to have any authority when discussing matters of single pilot R.P.T but then they don't need to.
The big catch is ensuring the training they receive is of the highest calibre, that done then watch them kick goals.
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I don't know about anyone else, just went through interview process with REX months ago, met the hours answered all their questions, everything went well. Only to find out to have been knocked back. I have thousands of hrs and they are thinking of putting 200hr pilots in the RHS. Some other people I know have been knocked back as well with heaps of experience. Why would they choose to put fresh CPL holders in the SAAB with barely any cmd experience over well qualified pilots????????
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The future??
The future will be very interesting, but some things are known.
Think about these things.
What is the cheapest and quickest way of getting pilots to the "checked to line " stage.
How can the seniority system be done away with? (by not having any F/O's ready for promotion and not enough captains?)
Can anyone run an air service with a continuous stream of temporary PIC's
GA has been struggling to do that with poor results for a long time. It's starting to happen to the regionals, and is probably coming for the majors.
Would any business be happy to recruit workers who have demonstrated a poor attitude to the situation they are currently in? Would this threaten to upset the morale of the exising workforce?
Think about these things.
What is the cheapest and quickest way of getting pilots to the "checked to line " stage.
How can the seniority system be done away with? (by not having any F/O's ready for promotion and not enough captains?)
Can anyone run an air service with a continuous stream of temporary PIC's
GA has been struggling to do that with poor results for a long time. It's starting to happen to the regionals, and is probably coming for the majors.
Would any business be happy to recruit workers who have demonstrated a poor attitude to the situation they are currently in? Would this threaten to upset the morale of the exising workforce?