Merged: REX to employ Cadets
Some of your posts have defintley made me think, if everyone takes up these cadetships and goes on to bigger and better things and there are no pilots going through private training and going through the ranks, there are going to be no experienced instuctors, and no GA pilots so where does that leave the struggling GA operators? they either have to pay more or close up.
But either way with experience, if there are going to be no instructors its not going to matter whether someone has 300hrs and is in the RHS of a SAAB, personally rather have that than be in a cheiftan or similar with 300hrs and s
t training?
Just something i was pondering!
But either way with experience, if there are going to be no instructors its not going to matter whether someone has 300hrs and is in the RHS of a SAAB, personally rather have that than be in a cheiftan or similar with 300hrs and s
t training?Just something i was pondering!
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Diverting off topic here, but this is where the idea of having instructors seconded to airline type flying schools (eg, SFC, China Southern and the pending Qantas one) will work. There's got to be incentives for instructors to want to stay in instructing. A secondment of this type allows the best of worlds for those who enjoy instructing as well as those who wish to fly bigger and faster types.
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First, I applaud Rex for trying to do something about the situation they’re facing. Will it work on its own? I doubt it. I suspect the reasoning behind the cadet program is mainly a budget issue. To pay pilots more means a considerable blowout to an existing budget, meaning someone gets a rap on the knuckles and loses bonus money. A cadet program is a new budget and another manager's concern.
One of the first actions in applying first aid to a bleeding victim is to stop the bleeding. I guess Rex has decided in its wisdom to leave the victim bleed and that it’s more cost effective to try and find a continuous supply of fresh blood to pump in.
I have no qualms with cadet programs. I do think Rex is going to have extreme difficulty getting a sufficient number of cadets to sign up and then stick around unless some radical changes are made to the promotion and employment conditions.
Ask any school leaver where they want to be in 5 years time and a common answer is, “CEO of a company.” The Australian economy is encouraging this attitude. The timeframe may not be realistic, but many school leavers will actually achieve this dream; whether it is with their own company or someone else’s.
The lure of several years in the right hand seat at bugger-all pay is no lure at all. Forget about bait. This is like fishing without even a hook!
One of the first actions in applying first aid to a bleeding victim is to stop the bleeding. I guess Rex has decided in its wisdom to leave the victim bleed and that it’s more cost effective to try and find a continuous supply of fresh blood to pump in.
I have no qualms with cadet programs. I do think Rex is going to have extreme difficulty getting a sufficient number of cadets to sign up and then stick around unless some radical changes are made to the promotion and employment conditions.
Ask any school leaver where they want to be in 5 years time and a common answer is, “CEO of a company.” The Australian economy is encouraging this attitude. The timeframe may not be realistic, but many school leavers will actually achieve this dream; whether it is with their own company or someone else’s.
The lure of several years in the right hand seat at bugger-all pay is no lure at all. Forget about bait. This is like fishing without even a hook!
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hornet 1 quote "just wanted to know what the chances of people actually getting in this REX cadetship program, for pilots just finishing their training?"
Well REX would be crazy not to consider pilots with a bare CPL already. That way they only have to offer the cadetship for the MECIR and endorsement on the saab! Less financial investment for REX! Targeting these pilots before they get any bad single pilot flying habits from GA which will make the transition process to multi-crew easier.
Well REX would be crazy not to consider pilots with a bare CPL already. That way they only have to offer the cadetship for the MECIR and endorsement on the saab! Less financial investment for REX! Targeting these pilots before they get any bad single pilot flying habits from GA which will make the transition process to multi-crew easier.
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TinTin25- those 'bad single pilot habits from GA' contribute significantly to the retention of my LHS B744 position. Particularly important when I have low hour cadets in the RHS, Cheers
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Targeting these pilots before they get any bad single pilot flying habits from GA which will make the transition process to multi-crew easier.
Your profile says you are an instructor...with the comments you have made..you need to think long and hard about how far in commercial aviation you will progress
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haughtney1 Well I think I will go onto better a greater things. I am just sorry I wasted so much time in GA doing an instructor rating when it isn't a requirement for an airline job.
Like many of us who are from Generation Y we are just using GA because that is what they do to us. They deserve to be brought down to their knees in the years to come.
Maybe I am talking out of my arse about single pilot flying but I can see modern aviation changing in the years to come to the point GA does not exist and pilots only experiencing flying in multi-crew operations!
Maybe that is why there is so much talk about the multi-crew pilot licence?
Does anyone know if REX is considering going down that path?
Like many of us who are from Generation Y we are just using GA because that is what they do to us. They deserve to be brought down to their knees in the years to come.
Maybe I am talking out of my arse about single pilot flying but I can see modern aviation changing in the years to come to the point GA does not exist and pilots only experiencing flying in multi-crew operations!
Maybe that is why there is so much talk about the multi-crew pilot licence?
Does anyone know if REX is considering going down that path?
Lowdown,
I believe you hit the nail squarely on the head my friend.
The issue of whether REX should or should not employ cadets has already been made by several factors.
My point being, that REX probably have no choice in going down this path. What they fail to realise, or probably do not want to face, is that they also need to significantly increase wages and conditions as well.
If they do not adopt a multi-pronged attack to the problem, the cadetship will fail. Either by not being able to attract them in the first place, and certainly by losing them at the first opportunity down the track.
And don't think by attaching strings to the offer that will work either. Whether it's $80k or $40K, people these days will not hand over one cent if they suspect that they are going to be screwed later on!
Of course all of this becomes academic if there are no Check and Trainers left! Perhaps the issue of retention should be addressed sooner rather than later?
I believe you hit the nail squarely on the head my friend.
The issue of whether REX should or should not employ cadets has already been made by several factors.
- The robust growth in air travel.
- The already acknowledged shortage of suitably qualified pilots.
- The desertion of pilotage as a career by young Australians.
My point being, that REX probably have no choice in going down this path. What they fail to realise, or probably do not want to face, is that they also need to significantly increase wages and conditions as well.
If they do not adopt a multi-pronged attack to the problem, the cadetship will fail. Either by not being able to attract them in the first place, and certainly by losing them at the first opportunity down the track.
And don't think by attaching strings to the offer that will work either. Whether it's $80k or $40K, people these days will not hand over one cent if they suspect that they are going to be screwed later on!
Of course all of this becomes academic if there are no Check and Trainers left! Perhaps the issue of retention should be addressed sooner rather than later?
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And alas TinTin, you haven't viewed the bigger picture here...
The MPL was conceived as a quick cheap fix for shortages of experienced crew in places like China and India which don't have any real general aviation activity to speak of.
It has been seized apon by the larger training providers of this world.. Alteon, CAE, Gecat etc etc because they see it as a business opportunity and it might sell them a few more Sim's
Presently, there is real trepidation at the standard of the MPL students who are graduating (Sterling airlines in Denmark are taking the first few I think..) as they will most certainly lack many of the basic skills that you teach your students related to airmanship and decision making.
The people and organizations driving this tend not to be pilots, they tend to be accountants and consultants...the people who don't think that this is the way forward tend to be the ones who should know..those being the pilots and their respective associations.
Maybe that is why there is so much talk about the multi-crew pilot licence?
It has been seized apon by the larger training providers of this world.. Alteon, CAE, Gecat etc etc because they see it as a business opportunity and it might sell them a few more Sim's
Presently, there is real trepidation at the standard of the MPL students who are graduating (Sterling airlines in Denmark are taking the first few I think..) as they will most certainly lack many of the basic skills that you teach your students related to airmanship and decision making.
The people and organizations driving this tend not to be pilots, they tend to be accountants and consultants...the people who don't think that this is the way forward tend to be the ones who should know..those being the pilots and their respective associations.
TINTIN25, it would be appreciated if you stopped lobbing all of us "Gen Yers" in the same boat to add weight to YOUR OPINIONS. Fair enough share your opinion, but don't include everyone else in it.
If you are not enjoying GA (particularly in these times when it is so dynamic) then methinks you picked the wrong area of it to get into.
If you are not enjoying GA (particularly in these times when it is so dynamic) then methinks you picked the wrong area of it to get into.
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Chadzat - Well I'll stop (lobbing all of us "Gen Yers" in the same boat) but there must be some truth to the feelings of "Gen Yers" as obviously not many think aviation is a good career path! The pilot shortage is clear evidence of that.
haughtney1 - Thanks for the different take on the MCL. Even though I don't like the conditions in GA I have to admit they do teach you how to fly in the real world. So your statement below about the MCL is very much valid.
"they will most certainly lack many of the basic skills that you teach your students related to airmanship and decision making"
If they have never experienced being under the pump in awfull weather where positive decisions need to be made fast. I think some might crumble if the Captain was out of action and it was left to the MCL pilot to bring the plane down safely in challenging conditions!
haughtney1 - Thanks for the different take on the MCL. Even though I don't like the conditions in GA I have to admit they do teach you how to fly in the real world. So your statement below about the MCL is very much valid.
"they will most certainly lack many of the basic skills that you teach your students related to airmanship and decision making"
If they have never experienced being under the pump in awfull weather where positive decisions need to be made fast. I think some might crumble if the Captain was out of action and it was left to the MCL pilot to bring the plane down safely in challenging conditions!
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Munny, munny, munny.
I think we should change the name of this forum to professional pilot's "poor bugger me" network.
I could never understand why pilots would spend so much money on training without first researching the job situation.
For decades we had floods of newbies arriving uninvited, and most of them expecting to be treated royally, as god's gift to aviation.
The facts were that most were really out of their depth, and you had to hold their hand for quite a while, if you gave them some work. The existing operators were prepared to do this, and there were some very good pilots, once they got used to things and gained confidence.
The flying schools were doing good business, but they obviously failed to tell their students that some of the operators were only paying casual rates, and there may not be enough hours to make it viable.
So there were many disappointed, impoverished CPL's in the outback.
It appears that some of the flying schools followed up by putting rented aeroplanes in remote centers to do charter, and sold ICUS time to their new graduates.
Existing local operators, and their professional bush pilots were put under financial pressure, and many do not exist anymore.
I think modern electronics finally allowed the message to get back to the wannabies BEFORE they spent their money, so flying training slowed.
Now we have much talk about a pilot shortage (we always have had this talk) and this time there are some jobs on offer, and the flood is decreasing.
The flying schools should be able to turn out the number of pilots required but the MCPL has arrived, and I think the airlines will like the MCPL product better.
So the "goose that laid the golden egg" will go elsewhere, and the golden eggs will mainly go overseas, or to the airlines.
I bet we are about to see TV programmes and publicity that tells us the MCPL is "unsafe".
Our flying schools should get together and buy some simulators, so some of the golden eggs stay in Australia.
And hopefully GA will stabilise without a flood of "poor bugger me" pilots, so they can provide the low density, essential services the outback needs.
It's all to do with MUNNY< MUNNY< MUNNY
I could never understand why pilots would spend so much money on training without first researching the job situation.
For decades we had floods of newbies arriving uninvited, and most of them expecting to be treated royally, as god's gift to aviation.
The facts were that most were really out of their depth, and you had to hold their hand for quite a while, if you gave them some work. The existing operators were prepared to do this, and there were some very good pilots, once they got used to things and gained confidence.
The flying schools were doing good business, but they obviously failed to tell their students that some of the operators were only paying casual rates, and there may not be enough hours to make it viable.
So there were many disappointed, impoverished CPL's in the outback.
It appears that some of the flying schools followed up by putting rented aeroplanes in remote centers to do charter, and sold ICUS time to their new graduates.
Existing local operators, and their professional bush pilots were put under financial pressure, and many do not exist anymore.
I think modern electronics finally allowed the message to get back to the wannabies BEFORE they spent their money, so flying training slowed.
Now we have much talk about a pilot shortage (we always have had this talk) and this time there are some jobs on offer, and the flood is decreasing.
The flying schools should be able to turn out the number of pilots required but the MCPL has arrived, and I think the airlines will like the MCPL product better.
So the "goose that laid the golden egg" will go elsewhere, and the golden eggs will mainly go overseas, or to the airlines.
I bet we are about to see TV programmes and publicity that tells us the MCPL is "unsafe".
Our flying schools should get together and buy some simulators, so some of the golden eggs stay in Australia.
And hopefully GA will stabilise without a flood of "poor bugger me" pilots, so they can provide the low density, essential services the outback needs.
It's all to do with MUNNY< MUNNY< MUNNY
Seasonally Adjusted
Maybe I am talking out of my arse about single pilot flying but I can see modern aviation changing in the years to come to the point GA does not exist and pilots only experiencing flying in multi-crew operations!
What do you think will happen to the RFDS, aerial survey companies, single pilot night freight operators, tourist based float-plane outfits, recreational flying training organisations, Police Airwings, etc etc.?
It may come as a shock to you to discover that GA doesn't exist purely to enable "Gen Y'ers" to achieve their airline dreams. It's a big country out there, maybe you should take a look.
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Well the view from the fence is great - I like watching some of these GA operators struggle to find experienced pilots. If only they looked after their experienced pilots in the first place!
Sure some of those major GA operators might be here in 10 years time but the smaller ones will struggle to survive. Times have changed and most people don't want to work for peanuts considering the financial cost involved to step foot in the industry.
The cost of living has increased greatly over the years and from what I have seen the GA award has not changed much?
If someone can explain to me how the AFAP can justify the current award conditions as being reasonable I will be very interested to hear all about it?
Sure some of those major GA operators might be here in 10 years time but the smaller ones will struggle to survive. Times have changed and most people don't want to work for peanuts considering the financial cost involved to step foot in the industry.
The cost of living has increased greatly over the years and from what I have seen the GA award has not changed much?
If someone can explain to me how the AFAP can justify the current award conditions as being reasonable I will be very interested to hear all about it?
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If only they looked after their experienced pilots in the first place!
Sorry TINTIN,
If you're not happy with the view from there, if you're quick fix isn't fast enough, perhaps you've missed your true calling. I hope that general disdain of yours toward GA eg
we are just using GA because that is what they do to us. They deserve to be brought down to their knees in the years to come.
(if you really are an instructor!)
This by you 11 Sep
After all those negative comments about FTA maybe I shouldn't consider doing an Instructor rating there!
Ab initio training, whether MCPL or other, will remain part of, and help sustain GA - A place where some of us are actually happy.
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Do the airlines want this??
Will the airline recruiters recruit "poor bugger me" pilots, who are just using GA??
Will they just use the airline, and breed discontent?
I don't think that is what the airlines want.
Will they just use the airline, and breed discontent?
I don't think that is what the airlines want.
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Well working in GA is like playing a political game. I would never show any negativity to my boss or students as I know this would hinder my future employment prospects in aviation. 
(that is why there is PPRUNE to let of some steam 
)
Sure some might love working in GA if they end up with a good employer that treats them well but the ones that treat their pilots like dirt with poor conditions won't be around in the years to come. They deserve to go under
Maybe people 20 years ago put up with that but as evident by the so called "pilot shortage" people in 2007 are much smarter now!
The word has got around that aviation isn't a good career path anymore. There isn't any incentive by the industry or government to attract new pilots!
(that is why there is PPRUNE to let of some steam ) Sure some might love working in GA if they end up with a good employer that treats them well but the ones that treat their pilots like dirt with poor conditions won't be around in the years to come. They deserve to go under
Maybe people 20 years ago put up with that but as evident by the so called "pilot shortage" people in 2007 are much smarter now!
The word has got around that aviation isn't a good career path anymore. There isn't any incentive by the industry or government to attract new pilots!
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[quote]Targeting these pilots before they get any bad single pilot flying habits from GA which will make the transition process to multi-crew easier.[quote]
What a load of rubbish !
What a load of rubbish !
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REX responds to expressions of interest!
Well REX really look like they are going to do this Cadet thing. Has anybody else recieved the following email.......
Dear xxxxxxxx,
Thank you for expressing your interest in our Cadet Pilot Program.
We are currently reviewing all expressions of interest and finalising
details of the program and will contact you in the next few weeks should
your application proceed to the next stage.
Once again thank you for your interest in our Pilot Cadet Program.
Kind Regards,
Human Resources
I can only imagine experienced captains are dreading the thought of having a low time pilots sitting in the RHS in the near future!
Dear xxxxxxxx,
Thank you for expressing your interest in our Cadet Pilot Program.
We are currently reviewing all expressions of interest and finalising
details of the program and will contact you in the next few weeks should
your application proceed to the next stage.
Once again thank you for your interest in our Pilot Cadet Program.
Kind Regards,
Human Resources
I can only imagine experienced captains are dreading the thought of having a low time pilots sitting in the RHS in the near future!