Finally, some balls - NJS Pilots take industrial action

[27/09]

remoak

the Ansett pilots were all out of work shortly afterwards. In my opinion, they were poorly advised by a union that was just itching to make a stand - but the staff paid the price in the end.

I'm not sure that Ansett New Zealand is a good example to quote for your argument here. There were a lot of "politics" being played in the background and to blame the pilots strike for Ansett New Zealand's demise is being simplistic in the extreme. It was a convenient excuse for the demise.

Yes, the pilots were probably being paid above the going rate, but that situation was brought about by Ansett management when Ansett New Zealand was set up after the aquisition of Newmans Air and the Aussie pay rates were imported along with the Aussie pilots to expand the operation.

There were much bigger issues regarding the profitability of Ansett New Zealand e.g. the outrageously high lease payments being made to the parent company for the 146's.

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Then there is the 'LEAVE' if you don't like it mentality.

Qantaslink's management style to a tee. Pilots are taking managements sage advice to the letter. Massive resignations in the tube. Even senior checkies have had enough and lookin to move on. Rex 2 in the making.
Serve them right

[WynSock]

"Leave if you don't like it?"



OK, OK, we are leaving.

You fly your aeroplanes, accountant/middle manager/CEO.

It's easy-peasy.

[sumtingwong]

And do you know what it all came down to? Not money but RESPECT

Got it in one Mr Hat!

[Capn Bloggs]

Lodown,

pilot seniority really works well for the managers by making it very difficult for senior crew to change jobs.

True, but it also works the other way, because if there was no seniority in the industry, there would be on impediment to all the senior pilots leaving and absolutely stuffing the organisation. Look at the engineer movements around the industry. If the pilots did the same thing, I suspect that they would all still have jobs, and outfits like NJS would have no aeroplanes flying because evrybody would have left to go down the road. Can you imagine what would happen when DJ starts up it's Perth base with direct entry commands?

So managers had better appreciate the seniority system.

[joysticks]

Pass-A-Frozo

Hello to those young PPLs and CPLs who read these pages to see what is happening in the Aussie Airline world.
Re PAF's posts.
- Please do not consider PAF's view on life to represent that of a modern Professional Pilot.
- His attitude seems to be one of unmitigated greed and arrogance directed at the expense of whoever disagrees with him or has a different point of view.
- He shows by his language and lack of empathy towards others views to have no knowledge of Crew Resource Management techniques (Airlines consider CRM training essential these days ) - if he has attended a course he must have slept through it.
- And finally, I hope you never, ever have to share a cockpit with him.

[Capt Claret]

Frozo,

Why do you ignore the fact that we're not wanting to strike for more money, we're trying to avoid being paid LESS!

[megle2]

Pass a Frozo

Hang in there. Contrary to what all the others think I still think your on the right track.

TWU, Graham Richardson's book sums it up " What ever it takes ".
Doesn't matter who you hurt or whether its right.

I thought one the others with their strong views could answer my previous post re what was wrong with working to rules. It would be an effective industrial tool rather than be tools yourselves.

Don't get sucked in. Tread carefully.

Now I will settle back and wait for the flack.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

pilot an international rescue mission in a C-130 Hercules

BBBBBBaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaahah hhhhaaaaaahhhh !!!!!.

This guy must be related to Winstun.

[cunninglinguist]

So PAF, after 15 years or so of getting nowhere in NJS by doing the right thing, what do you suggest the NJS pilots do
Having " been there, done that " with this mob, I can tell you without any shadow of a doubt that the CIA do not listen to reason.
It is always the standard reply " no money in this contract "

So, you seem to be full of great ideas, how does one better ones lot without any industrial action in this instance

[Valdiviano]

DEAR OHHHHH DEAR, PILOTS AGAINST PILOTS, AND THE STRIKE HAS NOT EVEN STARTED YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As an ex airline pilot (and ending up on my ass) and ex employer, I NEVER GAVE THEM (my valued staff) THE OPORTUNITY TO HURT ME,...........JUST BY LOOKING, AFTER THEM!!!!!!!!!!!.
YOU CAN HURT ME, BY WORKING TO RULES AND NOT LOOKING AFTER MY CUSTOMERS.
IF YOU STRIKE EVERYBODY HATES YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!NOBODY WILL UNDERSTAND YOU, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR ARGUMENT.
TIMES HAVE CHANGED, USE YOUR BRAINS.
P. S. Retired at 52, thanks to my employees looking after ME and MY customers.

[Mr. Hat]

Works a treat doesn't it Valdiviano. I bet you listened to them and spoke to them as you wished to be spoken to.

I heard that at South West in the US the pilots chipped in to buy the CEO a Harley. There is a book on it.

[yowie]

PAF,
That has sort of been tried, too hard to get around the fact that any sort of group organised action, without the protection of "protected industrial action", will have an exteremely negative affect. Dont underestimate that the CIA are sitting back waiting for the tiniest slip-up. So, as cun said, how would you like these guys and gals handle the issue of a aggressive, bullying, non AWA complying management, who have had numerous opportunities to easily rectify the problems that they created?

[Valdiviano]

Exactly Mr Hat, spoke to my customers and staff the WAY I WOULD LIKE TO BE SPOKEN TO and TREATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had no shareholders to contend with BUT MY ASS and LIFE SAVINGS where on THE LINE.

[Roger Copy Ta]

Hmmm, choosing the lesser of two evils. Pilots all want the same thing but disagree on how to go about getting it. It is always difficult trying to make the most of a bad situation, which is exactly what this is. The problem seems to be that every option is lose-lose.

An important point that I feel needs to be reiterated is that the PG are only trying to maintain their **** pay/conditions; ie, prevent their **** pay/conditions from getting even ****tier than the already **** pay/conditions rather than improve on the **** pay/conditions. There is a significant difference.

Bottom line seems to be that the company sucks to work for. That won’t change strike or no strike.

Frozo has some good points and I completely understand the principle he is standing by. But there also has to come a time when the gloves come off and it becomes no-holds-barred. Yes it’s lose-lose and everyone will hate you, but it ain’t a popularity contest. Striking is also a matter of principle and at the end of the day their only trying to make the best of a very bad situation.

Good luck boys and girls.

[R.Cruizo]

Guys/Gals,
Ignore this Pass-a -Frozo guy. He is just trying trying to attract attention and trying to make himself feel important. Let him play by himself.

Concentrate on the weeks ahead.

RC

[remoak]

lowerlobe

If the margins were not there I hardly doubt that an organisation would want to borrow around 80% of the total amount if they thought the business was not a good one or that it's potential to earn was decreasing.

OK then look at it another way... if the business was good and margins were high, why would the company be for sale in the first place?

If you look at recent acquisitions (say the flybe acquisition of BA Cityflyer, or the Air France acquistion of Cityjet), you will see that the purchaser radically altered the model and structure of the companies they took over. All they really kept was the staff and some of the routes in one case, and the staff and airframes in the other. An organisation looks at the potential revenues when evaluating a purchase, and often those revenues are nonexistent in the company they are looking at.

Secondly,If the margins are decreasing then why did QF make a record profit.It also appears that next years profit will be even larger so the idea that the margins are decreasing does not seem to hold up.

You have to look beyond the balance sheet and see exactly where those profits are coming from. Unless you know the true position with regard to fleet and airport slot transactions, it is hard to be certain how much of that profit is down to margins and yields. More to the point, increasing pax numbers + increasing peripheral sales will easily overcome decreasing margins. Just ask Easyjet, Ryanair or Virgin about that...

27/09

There were a lot of "politics" being played in the background and to blame the pilots strike for Ansett New Zealand's demise is being simplistic in the extreme.

There is ALWAYS a lot of politics in these situations... however, the fact remains that if the pilots hadn't gone on strike, the company would not have gone down the gurgler at that time. Maybe not long afterwards, who knows, but the pilots handed those who wanted ANsett NZ out of the way, the perfect excuse to shut it down. Not smart at all. No matter what was going on in the background, the strike was the catalyst.

cunning(?)linguist

So PAF, after 15 years or so of getting nowhere in NJS by doing the right thing, what do you suggest the NJS pilots do

Move on...

It is always the standard reply " no money in this contract "

Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, there really isn't any money in that contract? No, because in your cynical little world, airline management have only one reason to live - to screw pilots.

I have worked for a few companies where the management was literally holding the operation together by their fingernails. It would have been easier to have just taken their money and gone home - these guys were working 18 hour days - but they didn't, and one of the reasons was commitment to their staff (who, of course, just bitched and moaned the whole time).

Maybe NJS is like that, maybe not, but just assuming that there is an endless pot of money to fund the aspirations of 3rd level pilots is incredibly naive. Taking industrial action will not increase the size of that pot, in fact it will dramatically decrease it.

[El Kabong]

Oh Dear

Dear PAF
How easy it must be to throw stones from your "sheltered workshop" that is a nice and cosy little government job. Your continued quotations from your school book economics course pretty much reflect what is your obviously sad lack of real life experience in the world in which most people live. Bit like someone who can tell you all about sex but has never had a girlfriend.

History is full of examples of people with your particular slant on life, Mary Antoinette being one of them - "let them eat cake" - found her a great little spot to see out her days didn't it. Actually, the poor woman was coming from a position of ignorance so maybe you have more in common with her than first appearances. (She had a cosy and cosseted government job as well)

However, lets suppose that your undoubted grasp of economic principles is actually based on experience rather than verbatim snippets gleaned from the well thumbed pages of your text, you earlier stated with some authority that "the party unwilling to be flexible during a negotiation (or words to the effect) will undoubtedly lose". Well that being the case, NJS is stuffed as it has been that particular party that has been completely and totally immovable during any negotiations for many years.

Perhaps one day you may move from your cloistered environment into a real-life situation (although I feel you have probably been saluted once to many times to do so) and perhaps then we may give some creadance to your continued verbose pomposity and never ending diatribes.

And no I dont work for NJS and I have been a conservative voter my entire voting life. However, this time will be different as I choose to make a decision based on the facts of the time rather than being mired in intransigent political dogma and stubborn adherence to a particular bias.

Feel free to "fire away" my little friend, "empty vessels make the most noise" and I would wear scorn from proudly as a badge of honour!

[five dogs]

Thursday August 30, 2007
From: XXXX XXXXXX, CEO, CFOSA (and commedian)
To: All National Jet Pilots.
Dear all,
The purpose of this letter is to give our pilot workforce an update on activity and
current thinking in regard to your workplace agreement.
I assure you that I do not see a need for industrial action and will in good faith work
with you to avoid it. I accept that some parts (try all of it you dope)of the workforce are frustrated by slow
progress and what may seem(perception is reality you dope)to be a non-negotiable position on behalf of the
company. I commit to redress this.
I have worked to try and improve communication and engagement since taking on
the CEO role(well you have failed miserably you dope). I have been open and honest with all staff about the company’s
challenges and the realities we face in taking decisions to accept new contracts(excuse me while I throw up, back in a min). My
aim is to have a united company that understands and rises to the challenge of
changing dynamics within our industry and our niches within that industry.(pass that joint around it must be good ****. I have pissed off the negineers, that the two we have left, the pilots love me and the F/A's are just dieing for their opportunity, you dope)
Within this context I remain committed to an increase in pay that meets your
reasonable expectations, maintains commercial profitability for the business and,(does that mean Future Bleakness?)
therefore, delivers job security and advancement opportunities to you.
I acknowledge that there is a message to us with this week’s vote by a number of
pilots to authorise the TWU to apply for permission to conduct a secret ballot on
taking protected industrial action.(well done, it didn't take long did it, 2 yrs of banging heads against a wall, now lets see some action, cut the crap)
I also note that we started working with the AFAP and the National Jet Pilot Group in
May in regard to workplace agreements. I admit that we have struggled to find
effective forums to discuss, understand and then determine a practical way forward
to address concerns. I have asked XXXXX XXXXX, XXXXX XXXXX and XXXXX XXXXX to follow up their last visit to bases and to leverage the work already
undertaken and to put before pilots for their consideration a package that seeks to
address your needs.(well it had better be a CA cause we have had enough of your cronies shafting us individually)
As the package is negotiated, we must all take into account the reality of commercial
competition and market pressure to maintain our costs and services at levels that
make National Jet attractive to our customers.(we are the lowest paid pilots in Aus, we have not asked for an extra cent, hows your bank account looking??)
Please judge our proposals on their merits and I commit to respond to your feedback
in good faith.
Regards,
XXXXX XXXXXXX
Chief Executive Officer

Cobham Flight Operations and Services Australia.

[El Kabong]

PAF,

You must be confused. My derision is aimed at you and your pompous and egotistical mentality, not at the author of whatever text you may be referring too.

Unfortunately you suffer from the same delusions as most university proffs who have spent a life time reading theory without worldly experience.

As for going to the dunny, its utterly and completely true that when ever i read a contribution from you that I do in-fact feel that way inclined.